RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[Swarbs]

changing the singular experience that is Byzantium: just try to hang on to as much as possible towards a "conquer Europe" seems less tempting. And at least currently Venice's specialty is being advanced, rich and influential despite having only very few cities (also: their stability is really bad), conquering 10, 15 cities with them just seems...meh.

I'm not against changing Byzantiums UHVs and not even against adding a "conquer XYZ"-style UHV but in my opinion it should be one that is best attempted after the Mongol invasion not one where you have to focus on expansion right from the start.
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The problem with the 'singular experience' of Byzantium and Venice is that they are both pretty boring. After about 1000AD, Byzantium just becomes "click end turn, kill Selkjus / Mongols, click end turn, switch gold to 100%, win". Similarly with Venice - you get the first UHV almost by default with your starting settlers and Ragusa usually flipping, the Constantinople UHV just requires you to take over a crusade a few turns before 1204, and the colony goal honestly just seems a bit silly. Defeating the Ottomans, who were the primary cause of the fall of the Venetian trading empire, would be a much more effective and challenging goal.

It's not like the proposed goal is to conquer half the world, either. Venice gets five or six ports as part of its current 1st and 2nd UHVs, and historically Venice was rich because it controlled so many eastern Med ports. The stability issues can easily be fixed by adding Crete, Cyprus, Rhodes, Crimea and Morea as historical territory.

 

[gilgames]

Wow i was off for a week, and so many ideas!

minor stuffs:

Gyulafehérvár: it was a lot worse several svn version before now its able to grow 6-7 and push out a knight in 4 turns. so aint that bad at all. also the transylvanian basin is sucks too. thats the reason for such a strong, resistant and independent people who live there

Byz: imo we need an idea similar to this frank-france stuff to satisfy our demands about them

Venice: 3.uhv is sucks. we all know and see that. but for the suggested ideas. WE NEED A LOT M O R E POWERFULL TURKEY. dont we?

and now the Frank idea:

I <3

Imo franks last uhv must be a "by xxx" and so you can finish it and change after it to an other, if its possible. That popup window is a great stuff too, to choose a civ to continue. I am aware only from AI franks scrue up your start if you dont pre-play with them.

also arabia might worth a split later in 2.0 maybe

 

[archcapitalist]

frank ideas are simply fantastic for me. i think the one thing that this mod lacks is an actual rise and fall feel compared to rfc/doc and soi.

having the franks be operated like this would add greatly to the flavor. the ai franks should be given a lot of help to achieve the empire, and not be able to avoid all of its cities being flipped.

and it would definitely help the french civ to not have to be both,

 

[Swarbs]

Byz: imo we need an idea similar to this frank-france stuff to satisfy our demands about them

Nice idea. Byz should be similar to the Frankish successor states, with a pop up window giving you an option to try and reclaim Roman glory, so focusing on expansion and conquest, or building a new Greek civilisation, with UHVs focused on culture and wealth. For example:

Roman option:

UHV1: Make Constantinople the largest and richest (total commerce) city in the world by 950AD
UVH2: Control the Eastern Med and Balkans by 1200AD (basically kill the Arabs and Bulgarians)
UHV3: Control Justinian's Empire in 1450AD (Kill the Ottomans, conquer Africa, Italy, Crimea, Andalusia, all Med Islands)

Greek option:

UHV1: Make Constantinople the largest and most cultured city in the world by 950AD
UHV2: Accumulate XXXX culture points by 1200AD (needs testing to see how much is feasible)
UHV3: Have the largest total commerce output in 1450AD

I think that sort of approach would be much better than the current options, where UHV2 and 3 can be done through stagnation and doing nothing for most of the game.

 

[gilgames]

Swarbs ur a genius!

although the greek uhvs might need a lil' work! i had no idea how to do it, but its a nice way. and if u choose greek way all minor asia will flip to ottomans....or something...we need to care about them too.

 

[archcapitalist]

UHV feedback based on 5 games.

Burgundy. My favorite game. THe first two goals are fantastic and force a nice balance. Loved it. The last goal should be different though. If you complete the conquer goal, you should already be bigger than the other western countries, unless germany really expanded to the east.

France: a lot of talk about franks and french recently, and if france is its own civ separate from the franks, it really needs a paris goal. or a wonder goal, or both. the colonies is ok i guess but it doesnt seem that french to me. perhaps a goal of founding colonies on 5 different continents would be better. (NA, SA and Caribbean, South Asia, East Asia, Africa) Not sure if that is codable. Perhaps forcing them to acquire all of the different accesses would have the same effect. this would reflect the diverse worldwide colonial empire of france, as opposed to spain's primarily new world empire.

I also think the Jerusalem goal should be scrapped. controlling the holy land isnt really strike me as being core to france. and it is really easy to do. just win one of the many crusades or send a single boat of troops. theres so many revolts going on there that its pretty easy to take.

Spain: the first goal is great, perfect. The second could be reworked a bit. the most colonies in 1588 could be very few. id say make it s specific number, at least 6. maybe 7. this works if you change the french colony goal. the third goal should be replaced. at no point in my game did i ever check that screen and see catholics not the majority. i didnt have to do anything. i spent those years adding the netherlands to my empire and building as many colonies as possible.

Codova: My Second favorite. the only thing i would suggest is moving up the date on the third goal.

Venice: the three dominations is nice symmetry the first goal is too easy. i think the first or second goal could be expanded to include crete and rhodes, or a set number of islands. or something commerce related

 

[Swarbs]

Swarbs ur a genius!

although the greek uhvs might need a lil' work! i had no idea how to do it, but its a nice way. and if u choose greek way all minor asia will flip to ottomans....or something...we need to care about them too.

Thanks!

Yeah, the UHVs are very basic at this stage and will need testing etc before they will be ready.

I think the Ottoman Janissary counter needs to be changed and be more progressive. At the moment you get almost no Janissaries in the early period, but way too many in the late period when they come every couple of turns. I think the Ottomans should need 100 points for their first Janissaries, 200 for the second, 300 for the third etc etc. That way they will get many more in the early period to help them expand, and fewer once they are bigger, and they start needing 2,000 points for each. Also, the AI Ottomans should get Janissaries after conquering each city, so they can expand faster and grow to be a proper empire!

But I think the main thing for the Ottomans is stopping AI civs like Venice and Hungary from getting massive armies. By the time the Ottomans spawn the AI civs around them often have huge armies, so the Ottomans can't really expand at all without being crushed. Higher unit maintenance is definitely needed, particularly in the late game, to give late game civs like Muscovy and the Ottomans a decent chance.

 

[gilgames]

more expensive unit cost is a need specially for AI

related to this, units after knight need a re-think too. after it they come very slowly and you can have a knight in 1100 and 1500 as the best offensive unit.

Im not familiar with the cordoban history but the religion uhv can be done in 1300 easily....so 200 years to push end turn...

 

[Swarbs]

related to this, units after knight need a re-think too. after it they come very slowly and you can have a knight in 1100 and 1500 as the best offensive unit.

That was actually the case in Europe in the Middle Ages. Armoured knights and men at arms on horseback dominated most battlefields. Only longbows or other powerful archers or infantry in entrenched positions could hold them off. Pikes, muskets and pistoleers were the only things that really made knights obsolete, as happens in the game.

Im not familiar with the cordoban history but the religion uhv can be done in 1300 easily....so 200 years to push end turn...

IRL 1492 was essentially the year the Cordobans, or at least their Islamic successors, were finally driven from Spain. So 1492 is in the game to reflect the Cordobans defeating the Catholics in the year they were themselves finally defeated.

 

[ezzlar]

Just played Cordoban. Initial shaky stability with the spawn of Spain and Portugal makes the first part of the game a good challenge. They get those pesky defensive crusades all the time too! But once you hit the 1300 you usually have dealt with both the spanish and portoguese and its 200 turns of press enter.

Third UHV should be something else. And a more fitting UP would be the one "no penalties for other religions". I sure have tons of different religions in my cities even from the start.

 

[Chep]

I just tried the "conquer the whole mediterranean"-challenge for Byzantium (on Monarch, since I thought it might be hard)...

and you're right it is definetely possible, but I'm still not quite convinced it should be a UHV-goal for them.

anyway, finished the conquest around 1150, so almost 150 years before UHV2

a question about the crusades
since I vasallized France in this game, I was curious as to whether or not one could "steal" the crusades-golden age:
Situation: The pope calls for the first crusade, chooses France (obviously) but before their troops arrive, I conquer Jerusalem, would I get the golden age?
(for the sake of this gedankenexperiment let's assume my byzantium converted to catholicism during this time)

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edit: I agree that the last 200 years of the Cordoban game could use some spicing up, however I think it should be something along the lines of "spread Islam to..." since otherwise it would be to easy to just switch to catholicism early on to evade the crusades...

also, I think it might be usefull to have Spain & Cordoba and Byzantium & the Ottomans each locked in "always war" if both are controlled by the AI. I often have games where Spain vasallizes Cordoba (or the other way round) making it impossible for each other to complete their UHVs, also I often just bribe Justinian into signing a peace treaty the turn after the ottomans appear, which basically destroys them (it also happens quite often if you don't interfere, just a few turns later.

 

[ezzlar]

"if both are controlled by the AI. I often have games where Spain vasallizes Cordoba (or the other way round) making it impossible for each other to complete their UHVs,"

So, you mean that the AI cant complete their UHVs?

 

[AbsintheRed]

a question about the crusades
since I vasallized France in this game, I was curious as to whether or not one could "steal" the crusades-golden age:
Situation: The pope calls for the first crusade, chooses France (obviously) but before their troops arrive, I conquer Jerusalem, would I get the golden age?
(for the sake of this gedankenexperiment let's assume my byzantium converted to catholicism during this time)

Yep
The first christian to conquer non-christian held Jerusalem get's the golden age

 

[ezzlar]

Catholic that is!

 

[Chep]

Yep
The first christian to conquer non-christian held Jerusalem get's the golden age

wait...so even before the pope calls for a crusade? that seems exploitable (ore often than not byzantium launches a GA with great persons...so just declare war on Arabia, send your troops to Jerusalem, switch to Catholicism (during your GA), conquer and get a free 2nd GA during which you switch back to Orthodoxy)

@ezzlar: yes, I mean that often Cordoba vasallizes Spain or the other way round, and then it is almost impossible for them to complete their 1492-UHVs.
And the Ottomans/Byzantines have no reason to make peace with each other since the Ottomans aim to basically replace the Byzantine Empire. Right now the Ottomans can easily be "deactivated" by gifting Justinian some tech/gold the turn after the Ottoman flip to make peace with them. ~10 turns later the Ottomans will have become the vasall of either Arabia or Byzantium. If the human player is controlling either empire things are different and they should have the option, but the AI is too easily fooled.

 

[ezzlar]

Your only catholic city will be Jerusalem which will flip to the Arabs at spawn. But sure, you can spread it to another city if you plan, wait for 2 GP and change during Golden Age. Or just take the stability hit and change during the first 130 years without GA.

But then on the other hand, you lose all your Faith points for a GA. A good trade off?

And I still dont get the Cordoba/Spain issue. The AI doesnt know about the UHVs and never tries to complete them. If they succeed, it´s just pure luck.

And Ottomans, they get two cities less at flip nowdays (Hadrianaopolis and Nicaea), dont know about starting army stack. That means a stronger Byzantium gets to keep more cities. They need some kind of buff. Maybe larger flip zone? We could stretch it to Caesarea and Tarsus?

 

[Folket]

It is probably a good hting the AIs do not try to complete the UHV. Fun playing Dutch having to start over constantly becuse AIs win before you spawn.

 

[gilgames]

Chep you see how to get a golden age with venezia at 1000ad? and a second in 1204? i do

Seriously, loosing some faith point with Byz aint a big deal....i tried to do the recently popped idea, but i was swarmed with barbs...and arabs were tricky too. beside i was prod units in 80% what is very unusual by me.

Until we (absint) figure out the french-frank stuff for byz-ottomans too. they need some buff to be playable. also i suggest 2 flip zone. 1 against Byz and 1 for "foreign". if hardianapolis tessaly or Const. is not in Byz hands it gonna flip too.

 

[gilgames]

I've seen somewhere a talk about events. so here is mine ideas. these might be crude, but is lovable, they are neutral, not bad nor good.

-at a specific city(on hill): locals found rare gems (or something) under they hill, do you want to exploit? +1 happy -1 health.
- such a trades can appear in cities or in regions too. other trades can be +1 unhappy for +1 health, or
-1 permanent health for +1-2 pop.(gold rush style) and many more options are.
-1 pop for an 50% or 50+ chance to gain + health or happy
-locals (city) have built a good relation with (city) and want the kings sign for it: +1 trade route for an amount of gold (ie. ~50-100) or for a resource (that might be specific or the most u have)

quests i do like give you a lil' extra things to do. but thez need to be more civ specific. no "Harbour Master" for Moscow ie. bur Horse Whisperer for Hungary!!! ideas are welcome.

EDIT: this is the place to discuss it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=493548 (my bad)

 

[ezzlar]

I did three Ottoman starts, some comments:

- Takes about 15 minutes to load (maybe adjust time estimates at starting screen to reflect this)
- Very few starting units compared to what the older civs have amassed
- Unit composition is at par with other civs, no advantage
- Missing techs for building longbows, even if you start with them
- No easy access to sulphur. Closest one is Sinope.
- Strong and stable Byzantium. I captured their different capitals 5 times before they collapsed.
- As your few units spread out you are very vulnerable to sudden DOWs.
- Eastward expansion is increadibly hard with Keshiks spawning during your reign. No units to counter and not big enough cities to fast produce walls/castles. Janissaries only have bonus against heavy cavalry.

And the Ottoman AI is very crippled. They are usually squeezed to death by a strong Byzantium and random aggressive European civ.