AbsintheRed
Deity
Agreed, expansion is better fitting for the 3rd UHV
This way we also keep the 2 historical (semi-historical) + 1 ahistorical (unachieved) UHV pattern
RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
Agreed, expansion is better fitting for the 3rd UHV
This way we also keep the 2 historical (semi-historical) + 1 ahistorical (unachieved) UHV pattern
ezzlar
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,846
I dont think expansion is difficult in anyway for the Byzantines given the 500AD start. Expansion would only be difficult if they face the Mongols.
If you changed the UHV2 deadline to say 1280, that would force an early expansion into the Black Sea in order to build walls and castles. But that could also mean that you just sea drop three settlers and build cities on the end date...
Regarding Kiev and Moscow as human. The AI isnt aware of the UHVs so I dont see how that would make anything more challenging.
If you changed the UHV2 deadline to say 1280, that would force an early expansion into the Black Sea in order to build walls and castles. But that could also mean that you just sea drop three settlers and build cities on the end date...
Regarding Kiev and Moscow as human. The AI isnt aware of the UHVs so I dont see how that would make anything more challenging.
I think uhv 3 should be to conquer Italy, North Africa, and perhaps part of Iberia-- justinians conquests essentially -- reclaim justinians empire which was lost... Reclaiming the whole Roman Empire might be next to impossible but I've conquered what Justinian did at least once.
To be honest, around the time of the game, actual historical UHVs for Byzantium wouldn't be all that great. They would essentially be "die as slowly as you can". And we already arguably have two ahistorical UHVs - Byzantium only really controlled two of the UHV provinces in 1282AD, and was far from the richest empire in the world in 1453AD.
I would expand the second UHV to be "Justinian's Legacy" and include Morea, Epirus, Egypt, Cyrenacia, Tripolitania, Ifriqiya, Sicily and Apulia (Naples) to be captured / reclaimed by 1300AD. Maybe also Cyprus, Rhodes, Crete, Arberia and Macedonia? Set it to 1300AD to give a bit more time and ensure you have to expand whilst dealing with the Mongols.
And for the third UHV, how about "Victory over Islam". Do not allow Islam in any cities outside Damascus in 1453AD. That would have a nice kind of symmetry to it - you destroy Islam around the time that Islamic nations finally destroyed the Byzantines.
Alternatively "Orthodox Primary". Make Orthodoxy the largest religion in Europe (by spreading it to more cities than any other religion).
I think the Arabs could also do with a tougher second UHV. The second UHV can actually be won by the date of the first UHV, just send your starting horse archers to take Cyrene, Tarabulus, Tunis and Algiers, then rustle up a couple of settlers for Arabia and Tilimsan. Defending against the crusades is easy enough - just build a castle and stick a few Arbalestiers, Guisarmers, Ghazis / Knights and mercs behind the walls.
I think the Arabs need something building related, or more linked to the attempted conquests of the Caliphate. Either build the Dome of the Rock and Tomb of Al-Walid and be first in tech in 1350AD, or control the current 2nd UHV territories plus Cyprus, Rhodes, Crete, Sicily, Apulia and the Balears in 1350AD? Maybe also ensure that southern Iberia is under Muslim control?
I think the Arabs need something building related, or more linked to the attempted conquests of the Caliphate. Either build the Dome of the Rock and Tomb of Al-Walid and be first in tech in 1350AD, or control the current 2nd UHV territories plus Cyprus, Rhodes, Crete, Sicily, Apulia and the Balears in 1350AD? Maybe also ensure that southern Iberia is under Muslim control?
gilgames
Priest-King
@Byz: the religion stuff is imo impossible...by that time 2-3 eu power rules the game all chatolic, and bulgaria and kiev allways low, you cannot counter whole europe alone in religion....nor in size nor in munbers. the clearing thing wont work either, its very "expasive" to build inquisitors and all the barbs spread islam + the high 'miss" chance of the purge 
AND expanding more might be tricky too... in my latest Byz game (1084) build a settlers in 1300AD in my top cities is 10 turn...its expasive too...
@Arabs: yeah sure, uhv 1 could be changed to uhv 2 and by 1100ad (from damascus to tunis or algir). i guess thats fair enough. 2. might be to build a wonder by 1300ad, i.e. and the 3. must have a change too (i could never get that) lets say: spread islam out of your borders too: make ~20(+-) cities /w islam, and make it the only rel. inside border. might sound difficult, but its possible but 30%!!!
AND expanding more might be tricky too... in my latest Byz game (1084) build a settlers in 1300AD in my top cities is 10 turn...its expasive too...@Arabs: yeah sure, uhv 1 could be changed to uhv 2 and by 1100ad (from damascus to tunis or algir). i guess thats fair enough. 2. might be to build a wonder by 1300ad, i.e. and the 3. must have a change too (i could never get that) lets say: spread islam out of your borders too: make ~20(+-) cities /w islam, and make it the only rel. inside border. might sound difficult, but its possible but 30%!!!
gilgames
Priest-King
ps: i tried arabs a few time, but the 3. current uhv seemed unreachable. i conquered genoa to have a prod city close to europe and pumped out amap missionary. i could even bribe civs to convert to islam and they still keeped to purge islam from their cities. i was allways around ~25% -+ 1-2%....so i was missing something or hwo di it already and how?
@Byz: the religion stuff is imo impossible...by that time 2-3 eu power rules the game all chatolic, and bulgaria and kiev allways low, you cannot counter whole europe alone in religion....nor in size nor in munbers. the clearing thing wont work either, its very "expasive" to build inquisitors and all the barbs spread islam + the high 'miss" chance of the purge
@Arabs: yeah sure, uhv 1 could be changed to uhv 2 and by 1100ad (from damascus to tunis or algir). i guess thats fair enough. 2. might be to build a wonder by 1300ad, i.e. and the 3. must have a change too (i could never get that) lets say: spread islam out of your borders too: make ~20(+-) cities /w islam, and make it the only rel. inside border. might sound difficult, but its possible but 30%!!!
Well in my Byz game I won the 3rd UHV with 35% of the world orthodox, 51% catholic and very solid stability (+36), so I could certainly expanded much more to beat the Catholics eventually. Ten turns to build a settler, 20 more settlers And Islam was only 12%, all cities within my borders or the Arabs and Cordobans (who were only in N. Africa). Perhaps an easier goal would be to conquer or vassalise all Islamic civs? That way peace vassalisation is an option if you want to play more peacefully.
For Arab UHV 1, I don't think you actually need to extend the time. You can easily capture all the UHV regions by 965AD, just send all your horse archers off and use Medjay mercs to fight the barbs in Arabia. All you need is to capture six cities (including Antioch and Edessa) and build two settlers. Just take it slow with the horse archers and you'll be fine.
For UHV 3, just expand, expand, expand. I settled or conquered all the Mediterranean islands except Corsica, then the Azores, Madeira and the Canaries. Then I conquered cities in Africa that would revolt and gifted them to Cordoba. Then invaded Spain, captured every city and gifted them all to Cordoba. Sent a few missionaries into Genoa and Burgundy (they had open borders) and that was it.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
A while ago, the Arab UHV was 25% Islam, but that was too easy to get. It's was changed to 35%, which is doable, but difficult.
However, with the new mechanics of the demographics calculation, the UHV might be harder/easier now, as the % Islam is probably calcutaled differently.
Example:
However, with the new mechanics of the demographics calculation, the UHV might be harder/easier now, as the % Islam is probably calcutaled differently.
Example:
Spoiler :
That may explain why I was able to get the UHV quite easily. Not only did I have a big urban pop thanks to all the island cities with food resources and big sizes, but I also had a pretty mahoosive army. And the Ottomans were impressively large as well after I helped them kill the Byzzies.
gilgames
Priest-King
and it explains why i could not do it.....i hate big armies, i prefer small strong and versatile ones. and never tried to colonize any island exept cyprus.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
I'm not sure if the above explination is true. It's what I think it's the matter.
gilgames
Priest-King
it must work somehow that way, noe i could win with arabs beyond 1500ad 
the trick helped me to make turkey "strong" in my case just big. I owned all teal, green, yellow and most of orange territory + Brüssel plus made turkey historical size. after the plague hit europe, i won it....
the trick helped me to make turkey "strong" in my case just big. I owned all teal, green, yellow and most of orange territory + Brüssel
plus made turkey historical size. after the plague hit europe, i won it....
Chep
Emperor
Well, I won both of my (recent) Arab games before the ottoman spawn without any real expanding. Just spreading Islam to all of byzantiums cities and the conquering 1-3 European cities for missionary production did the Trick. Usually the norse, lithuanians, hungarians and the italians freely open their borders . The key is then spreading your faith to einher France or germany.
I recommend talking the polish capitol with 3 ghazi, but also the indy City in serbia or genoa worked quite Well for me.
I recommend talking the polish capitol with 3 ghazi, but also the indy City in serbia or genoa worked quite Well for me.
ezzlar
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,846
I did some really casual expanding with the Byzantines and owned almost every mediterranean port in 1200 AD. That could be UHV 2! It is also a very interesting game since I am involved in most conflicts. One way or another. Also have a bonus settlement in Dublin and English west coast.
DC123456789
Deity
The 3rd Austrian UHV (have the highest score in 1780) feels really empty. Pretty much anyone will have the highest score far before that, with the requirement for 3 vassals and the not unsubstantial land goal, and it's just basically clicking next turn without any real goals for the quite slow lategame. In my opinion it would be much better to have some sort of culture goal, given how Vienna was and is such a centre for the arts (though the threshold would have to be quite high given Austria's massive culture buffs).
gilgames
Priest-King
@DC123 That might be some cultural, like settle 3 GA in Wien like motzart and others
@ezzlar can u share that save, i am curious!
like motzart and others @ezzlar can u share that save, i am curious!
swinnend
Chieftain
I kind of agree with you, however I had games were I actually had problems getting the highest score, even if I had the land and more long before that. The Ottomans can get strong, since you will crash some of their opponents.
And making Vienna highest culture or something like that would be even easier, given the size of your empire.
Maybe push the Ottomans out of Europe?
gilgames
Priest-King
Austria itself wasnt very dedicated to push out ottomans from EU, but make Wien th most cultured city sound good, but still end turn stlye, anyway better then current xd
Highest score is a tough one if you play on Emperor. The AIs have advantages over you, so you have to keep reacting, expanding and building to stay at the top or you fall back quite quickly. But if you play on Monarch then once you have the highest score you are usually going to keep the highest score unless an AI civ suddenly gets really powerful.
Personally I like the GA / culture UHV, tho' maybe bring the deadline forward a bit as it can take a loooong time to get all the way to 1780 with just culture to focus on!
Personally I like the GA / culture UHV, tho' maybe bring the deadline forward a bit as it can take a loooong time to get all the way to 1780 with just culture to focus on!
