RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[sedna17]

My Spanish game is hanging on end of turn. The globe for your mouse curser just rotates and it simply continues to wait for AI.

Save attached.

Thanks for this save, BTW. It appears to be getting stuck on something as simple at the AI unit movement code. I don't understand the details yet, but this is a helpful clue. Anyhow, if you want to continue playing this game, you can go into World Builder and simply delete the Archer standing to the west of Constantinople. That resolves the crash (for me). I can't swear it's precisely because of that unit, but him moving is the last thing that happens before the hang.

It could be coincidental (but probably isn't) that Genoa also gets a crusade vs. Byzantium and his units appear this turn right next to Constantinople.

 

[jessiecat]

Okay, this one was our fault. The condition is really to have 3 cities south or west of the Baltic sea -- outside of the rectangle shown in the reference map. Otherwise, as you note, this is redundant with the control Finland UHV. I will update this description.

BTW, you say: "not the Balkans as it says in the intro and the wiki!" What do you mean by "Intro"? The reference map has it wrong, but it looks like the text description in the Civilopedia is correct on the Baltic/Balkans thing.

I think its supposed to be south or east of the Baltic requiring you to have cities within the large rectangle. That is the south and east Baltic coastline and inland. Examples would be Riga, Novgorod, Memel etc. West would be Sweden and you've already got that. In fact the map is correct and the only problem with the description is that it says Balkans instead of Baltic. And I do have three cities in the right area within the rectangle, as it was intended. (see the two screenshots below) Am I right? Should I have had the 3rd. UHV condition or not?
BTW Thanks for the info on France. How could I have found out Rome had more culture than Paris? Where is total culture for a single city shown if its not on the Victory Screen?

 

[sedna17]

The victory condition as written in the code requires these cities to be south or west of the big rectangle. Acceptable cities would be (most of) Norway/Denmark, or cities inland in Germany/Poland. If I understand correctly, you think the UHV should be in the area between the two regions outlined (see attached).

It is too easy to meet the UHV you propose, as there is a lot of land in Russia. The one as currently coded should be a little harder, as it requires pushing into Norse/German/Polish heartland. It may well still be too easy.

EDIT: There is currently nowhere to see what the most cultured city is, just like there is no way to see what the largest city is ("Top 5 cities" is some combination of these with extra weight on Wonders I believe). I wrote a little Python statement to output the culture values to the log file, which is how I checked.

 

[jessiecat]

The victory condition as written in the code requires these cities to be south or west of the big rectangle. Acceptable cities would be (most of) Norway/Denmark, or cities inland in Germany/Poland. If I understand correctly, you think the UHV should be in the area between the two regions outlined (see attached).

It is too easy to meet the UHV you propose, as there is a lot of land in Russia. The one as currently coded should be a little harder, as it requires pushing into Norse/German/Polish heartland. It may well still be too easy.

I understand your point but that is not what was intended. I remember the discussions we had about it and the whole point was to try and replicate the conflicts Sweden under Gustavas had with Poland and Russia. Not encroaching into Norway and Denmark. It would be too easy. That's the whole idea of the rectangle. To be inside it, not outside it. The condition means east and south as it is described correctly. I'm sorry but I strongly disagree.

 

[sedna17]

No worries -- I don't really have an opinion on what it should be, just explaining what it is. So do you want it inside the big rectangle and (obviously) outside of the Sweden/Finland region marked, or do you want a slightly different region? As we currently have the regions, the description isn't clear (there's hardly any space inside the rectangle south of the Baltic Sea).

 

[jessiecat]

No worries -- I don't really have an opinion on what it should be, just explaining what it is. So do you want it inside the big rectangle and (obviously) outside of the Sweden/Finland region marked, or do you want a slightly different region? As we currently have the regions, the description isn't clear (there's hardly any space inside the rectangle south of the Baltic Sea).

OK. My suggestion would be to keep the rectangle roughly as it is, though reduced in size. Places on the Polish coast, Gdansk, Memel, Riga and area around Novgorod should be included. As long as it lies south of Finland and east of Sweden it can stop short of the Moscow spawn zone. If that's OK with you.

Something like this. (Sorry about the terrible artwork).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I would even extend the top of the white box in jessiecat's pic to include Kexholm County (which was ceded to Russia in the Treaty of Nystad which ended the Great Northern War) which abuts the lake.

The main problem I see right now is not the land requirement, but the fact that Moscow inevitably succumbs to the Mongols and rarely respawns. It would be nice to have a higher probability of respawn around 1500 (after the waves of Mongols have subsided and Muscovy is on the rise). Kievan Rus can be allowed to die for Moscow to expand.

 

[sedna17]

And I assume you'll worry about increasing the overall difficulty of the Swedish UHVs as part of your overall re-analysis? BTW, when Rhye moved out wiki stuff to the new wiki it made some of your previous suggested UHV revisions a bit harder to spot. But they're still there and I still mean to get around the changing some of those dates to be earlier. That said, if you're separately compiling a list of UHV changes, I can wait.

 

[jessiecat]

And I assume you'll worry about increasing the overall difficulty of the Swedish UHVs as part of your overall re-analysis? BTW, when Rhye moved out wiki stuff to the new wiki it made some of your previous suggested UHV revisions a bit harder to spot. But they're still there and I still mean to get around the changing some of those dates to be earlier. That said, if you're separately compiling a list of UHV changes, I can wait.

Most definitely. I don't intend to step on your toes in any way, but I think most of the conditions for each civ need toughening up while a handful need changing or relaxing. Two ideas I'm looking at are a shift to more specific wonder-building (as in the French RFC case) and more historically specific UHV goals. Part of this will require a rejig of the projects and colonies issues esp. making them more attractive for the AI as well. I'll try to have a basic working list for you soon.

 

[sedna17]

Re: UHVs and Colonies. The AI isn't building colonies right now because the AI code (essentially) doesn't build projects unless it's going for some specific purpose (space race, nukes). It has nothing to do with them not being attractive enough, and everything to do with how the AI is coded to treat projects differently. I am working on a solution -- without this you can make the colonies as attractive as you want and the AI still won't build them.

Re: Moscow. I think it might just make more sense to push Moscow back to a post-Mongol spawn date.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Re: post-Mongol spawn date: that would work but the 1st UHV will need to be something like conquer Kievan Rus/Novgorod by 1500 (i.e. something land based).

One other pet peeve of mine: whenever you have anarchy, the -20 stability stays, and this severely limits changes in civics. Can we maybe make -10 of this stability hit temporary?

 

[FuzzyRabbitLord]

I think the swedish UHV should be changed the Controling the Eastern Coast of the baltics (finland down to Gdansk) and one city in northern germany, That way you need to colonize finland take the eastern baltics from poland and maybe russia and then take one city from germany (or if you lucky germany will be gone and just a city in northern germany) this should be entirely doable, Ive taken all of northern germany as well as the eastern baltics, but it will present a challenge as you will have to face 3 powers and they often have defensive pacts

also it would be historically relevant as sweden had major interest in the easter baltics, and there armies where in germany and held some territory in the north for a little bit during the 30 yrs war

 

[sedna17]

One other pet peeve of mine: whenever you have anarchy, the -20 stability stays, and this severely limits changes in civics. Can we maybe make -10 of this stability hit temporary?

Really? The -20 shoudn't stay long -- just -3 per turn should be permanent, but maybe there's a bug.

 

[FuzzyRabbitLord]

Heres what I'm thinking (horsehockey drawing over the map being used)
the big red square going from finland down should be controlled (or at least the coast)
and the smaller one in germany should have at least one swedish controlled city in it

 

[jessiecat]

Heres what I'm thinking (horsehockey drawing over the map being used)
the big red square going from finland down should be controlled (or at least the coast)
and the smaller one in germany should have at least one swedish controlled city in it

I'm OK with that. Or maybe just 3 cities in the Eastern Baltic north of Gdansk. Is the one in Germany so necesssary?

 

[micbic]

Swedes had part of Germany (Bremen-Pommerania) after the Thirty-year war, so why not. Perhaps an other idea for an UHV would be something in the terms of being the first to research (late military tech).

 

[jessiecat]

Swedes had part of Germany (Bremen-Pommerania) after the Thirty-year war, so why not. Perhaps an other idea for an UHV would be something in the terms of being the first to research (late military tech).

OK. I'll include 1 on the German coast as part of the list I'm doing, which I hope to post here later today on the small bugs/fixes thread..

 

[civmademepoor]

Re: post-Mongol spawn date: that would work but the 1st UHV will need to be something like conquer Kievan Rus/Novgorod by 1500 (i.e. something land based).

Very strongly agree on the history side and gameplay side. That might check Poland a little bit and give the Kievan's a fighting chance vs the barbarians.

 

[JediClemente]

Is Russia far more difficult with the last test version, or it is just me?

Fewer cities received on spawn, crappier tech rate (impossible to get boyars before mongols appear), no orthodoxy spread (?)...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Actually my Moscow UHV was done with the most recent version. You don't need boyars, just armored lancers (for attack) and arbalests (for defense) will be more than enough. Just build early troops to capture Novgorod, Vologda, and most importantly, Samara and Kazan. Build one more city south of Samara and just amass troops there to absorb the Mongols. The kremlin is a great castle (gives more protection). And it is possible to get to boyars (for me it was in the early 1300's).