RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[JediClemente]

Perhaps the crusades mechanism could limit the number of times a civ can be chosen. I've had games were Genoa took over EVERY crusade! and attacked Byzantium. And others were France was always voted leader... that's boring.

Here's another idea: crusaders strength could decrease in number over time. The first crusade should have more soldiers than the second, and so on.

I will reduce the speed with which Arabia and Cordoba can build wonders. I think I meant to change it, but messed up. It's currently set at faster than France/Burgundy, which helps make it easy to collect all the wonders in your few Catholic cities.

Oh. But I liked watching Cordoba build La Mezquita...

 

[Veshta]

Tried playing as Arabs and the technological superiority is immense. Musketmen were ready to deploy in 1000AD and every wonder built .. each and every one. Quit game shortly afterwards, no fun
Even if the bonus to wonder production is reduced they will still be able to build everything, simply because they have the requisite tech long before anyone else.

Possible solution: Make the state religion dictate availability of wonder rather than just presence of religion.

Tried England and failed miserably. The isles were never worth much with limited river tiles, mediocre production and barbarian incursions
Their strength used to lie in the UP which was the great equalizer .. since workshops have been pushed 100 turns or more (now with Guilds) England is severely outmatched by the time it comes into play.
Only chance they have is if France messes up and collapses early on.

Germany appears much better, has a tech deficit to start but with rivers everywhere its relatively short lived. Fun being at the centre of the mess that was Europe, diplomacy seems to be key.

Edit: AI has problems building Shrine of Uppsala, three times I have been to 1200AD with it still "available". I think the Pagan Shrine requirement is to blame as it is obsoleted very early.

 

[Opera]

Re: Bulgaria

The early Byzantine plague probably depopulated those cities right before you showed up. Here's another case where this is nice for the AI (gives the Bulgarians a chance to be a significant threat to Byzantium) but makes the human UHV too easy. My opinion is that the correct solution is to make the UHVs harder/more constrained.

Oh, so that's it. Never had any plague in that game though.

Anyway, their first UHV (or second, not sure), the one which states they have to control every city in a certain area before 1200; couldn't it be made that, at 1200, it checks if there is no city but Bulgarian's in that area? Currently, it seems to validate the UHV whenever you take all the existing cities of the area; you don't have to bother making sure no stranger city is built afterwards.

I think the 'no city lost' UHV is pretty solid, I was lucky not to lose mine.

The last one was easy but that's probably because I had many cities, around 14, spanning from Hungaria to Greece. You could shift to a Faith points goal; but Poland already have that, although I heard you may change their UHVs.

Re: Venice and Crusades

Venice doesn't always get the crusade -- but it's normally either them or France. I guess they typically have the most voting power? Certainly for the first crusades the civs that haven't been around for a long time (like England) are unlikely to be chosen.

How is voting power for the crusades calculated?

Re: Inn

Probably not very useful right now, you're right.

You could either remove it or perhaps give it a raw espionage bonus and 1 trade route?

Re: Civic Stability

A display of civic stability would be most useful, I agree. It's definitely on the to-do list. It would be a bit easier to put it in the manual than in the Civilopedia, so I think it will appear there first.

If we have it in the manual, it's good enough for me. I'm already checking the reference maps often anyway

 

[jessiecat]

I agree about Germany having a much easier time now with all the civics, no instability and the ability to build Rathaus's right away. France is not too bad either if played cleverly.
But Burgundy really sucks now. Why does France have an extra unit and Burgundy is reduced to 1 archer and a worker and no missionary? When the early plague hit I was in big trouble. Just as it ended a French axeman marched in and captured Dijon. I've never lost a game of RFCE that fast before! A new record for me. lol

 

[youtien]

Yeah, I once get Orthodox at my Burgandy game. And as Franks, the strategy is take out Burgandy at very beginning.

And German still collapses often.

 

[youtien]

Emperor French:

Kill Burgandy with our axeman and archer (turn 10). Take Marseilles -> found Tours -> Conquer Barcelona -> conquer Bordeaux (barb berserker razed it later. It sucks at production, but we need this city for AA and work boat for Pamplona) -> conquer Pamplona at all cost (this city is nerfed but still a good powerhouse) -> expand eastward, I founded Amsterdam(dye!) and Luxembourg (5E of Paris) with care of barbs. German DoWed me, I captured their Basel (4E of Dijon) then Frankfurt, then we had peace, and then German vassalized to me. Genoa vassalized too. When English spawned I got 3 Armored lancers and 3 longswordsmen, captured Calais with no loss, after 30+ turns we had peace, and English also vassalized. No happy issues now.

My Paris built Cluny and Marco Polo, but lost Notre Dame to Arabs (they built it in Al-Quds). I use cottage economy, no manorlism, no serfdom, I want max commerce. Now it is 1188 (turn 196) I had 300+ points of tech(60%) each turn. Feudal Monarchy - Bureaucracy - Free peasantry(bulbed education with GS) - OR - viceroyalty. I am about to settle Nantes.

In RFC, once vassal (volunteerly), always vassal (if master doesn't collapse), this is not reasonable. In this game, with my surronding nearly all secured, I can leisurely go to win. I suggest that we tweak the vassal system.

 

[youtien]

The new free peasantry(+2 commerce in town) is powerful. I suggest all of us try cottage economy, and compete with serfdom/manorlism and apprenticeship. Although serfdom had production bonus first, it would lose to cottages soon even without free peasantry. The commerce bonus is too important for any civs that need tech.

 

[JediClemente]

I agree about Germany having a much easier time now with all the civics, no instability and the ability to build Rathaus's right away. France is not too bad either if played cleverly.
But Burgundy really sucks now. Why does France have an extra unit and Burgundy is reduced to 1 archer and a worker and no missionary? When the early plague hit I was in big trouble. Just as it ended a French axeman marched in and captured Dijon. I've never lost a game of RFCE that fast before! A new record for me. lol

You should take your units out of your cities just before the plague, and keep them safe at least more than 3 tiles away from any city (should be easy for the first plague, as germany is empty).

This could be considered an exploit, but well... the plague is just too strong.

 

[sedna17]

I ran a bunch of test games using Alpha 10. For consistency these don't have any of the corrections/adjustments people have been suggesting should be made. I set the Dutch to spawn at 1750 and rolled 8 starts. There is a nice variety of worlds to look at. Feel free to download all these saves and look at them if you'd like. Some general comments:

The Ottomans are better now. In 4 cases the control at least all of Turkey and most of Greece, and are often fighting Hungary. In one more Byzantium hangs on with just a couple cities, and in another, the Ottomans controls almost up to Vienna, but a super-powered Arabia controls all of Turkey.

Byzantium survives in two games, both times with just cities in their core area left.

Arabia survives in only one game, and is the run-away leader.

Cordoba never survives, but Spain dies twice as well, and once fails to expand into Southern Iberia at all. Portugal is very consistent: a small kingdom in Iberia. It doesn't settle any island like it should do.

Venice holds the Levant twice (in both games Venice is doing very well. Cause or effect?). No other crusader kingdom lasts.

Kiev actually manages to survive three times. When it survives it is normally very powerful and Moscow (of course) is relatively weak.

Burgundy normally survives (only dies twice), leaving France without it's "correct" borders at 1750 and weak. When Burgundy is killed, France does pretty well, though Genoa takes some of southern France (because it never goes into the Mediterranean correctly).

England sometimes holds onto a French city (three times). When they don't, they normally are doing better. Then hold Ireland in only one game. I think Dublin is getting razed by barbs and the English aren't resettling.

Germany is alive four times, and often one of the top scores when it does survive. Austria is always around, but only doing really one in one game.

Bulgaria survives twice. In one game it controls Constantinople and is the world leader. Hungary normally survives. How well it is doing depends on if the Turks and Bulgarians are doing well or not.

Poland is always alive and unspectacular. Ditto Sweden. Not much action goes on up there, though the Norse collapse twice.

If you look at the score graphs (I have the line-chart versions which are easier to read if people are interested), it is clear that there are often run-away score leaders. The colonies may be contributing to that a bit. It tends to be one or two civs in each game that scores all the colonies and is doing well. Spain, England, France, and Germany are well represented in this race. Other civs sometimes become colonial super-powers as well (perhaps through vassal-trading for Atlantic Access). Obviously Portugal is failing to contribute to this race properly and with this setup I don't know how the Dutch would normally do.

 

[FakeShady]

I really have nothing much to say after playing alpha 10, maybe just 2 points, but they're painfully obvious anyway:

1. House of Wisdom is crazy
2. The beginning plague is crazier

 

[Jusos2108]

Ditto Sweden. Not much action goes on up there, though the Norse collapse twice.

Maybe you could try how Sweden and Norse work out if you connect Sweden to Finland on the north edge of the map. Perhaps the AI would do better when not on an island. Also that was a historical army marching route.

 

[Panopticon]

I'm going to play Alpha 10 today. My impression of sedna's autoplays:
- Historical fidelity is a LOT better than the last time this experiment happened.
- Between them, Burgundy and Genova control the Mediterranean coast of modern France 6 times out of 8; Genoa takes the Languedoc/Provence region even when Burgundy is still alive.
- The Muslim civs all survive in line with what one would expect.
- If colonies concentrate in a single civ, that's probably because of decreasing marginal costs to building colonies, e.g. faster construction speeds when you control other colonies. As long as these remain in the game, the important thing in the colonies race is to get on the conveyor belt as soon as possible.

 

[Wessel V1]

Another possibility is to increase building costs with each colony, like tech costs increase with each city past the limit. This way more civs can build a few colonies, and as a bonus, this makes some UHVs slightly harder to achieve.

 

[sedna17]

Re: Beginning Plague. Why is it crazy? Yes, you have to know how to deal with and prepare for the plague, but if you do that it's far from crippling. I like it because it allows me to make Byzantium stronger/more flexible to play (as the human) while keeping the AI Byzantium relatively weak.

Re: Burgundy start. I made Burgundy starting units weak (relative to France) for two reasons. Historically, the Franks should be able to take over the Burgundians at the start. This allows the human to re-create Charlemange's empire. For AI/AI play, Burgundy is still too strong relative to the Franks, so this is one way of tilting the balance. Also, it makes it more difficult for the human Burgundian player to just kill the Franks right off.

Re: Voting Power. I think voting power for the crusades uses the same function as for Apostolic Palace voting -- so population with the Catholic faith (if two religions are present in a city then half the population counts).

Re: Vassals. I agree the AI is vassaling too much and staying vassals too long. I don't know if there is an easy fix.

Re: Sweden. Good idea about connecting Finland and Sweden at the top of the map. Another thing that might help Scandanavia is if the Norse stay out of Sweden more, so that the two don't always end up fighting each other and not doing anything else. Sweden comes so late that it's a pain to test balance well.

Re: Colonies. It makes sense historically to encourage colonies all in one area -- we really haven't play tested that at all to see if it makes sense in the game. An increasing cost function like Wessel suggests could work.

 

[micbic]

Good job w the satsifying results of the experiment.

Re: Sweden. Good idea about connecting Finland and Sweden at the top of the map. Another thing that might help Scandanavia is if the Norse stay out of Sweden more, so that the two don't always end up fighting each other and not doing anything else. Sweden comes so late that it's a pain to test balance well.
.

Even crazier, why not making the Mariehamns islands a kind of isthmus w the islands connected diagonally, so as to let sea travel?

 

[Panopticon]

If you want to encourage colonisation in a single region, you can still do that if you increase the marginal cost of colonies across the board, like Wessel says.

 

[Panopticon]

Re: Sweden. Wikipedia suggests that Swedish rule was strongly consolidated in Finland from 1300 on. Would it be reasonable to give Sweden a foothold there, perhaps by flipping a new independent city in Finland like Turku?

 

[embryodead]

Burgundy

I thought you all agreed on moving Burgundy start to a later date? To me the ideal start date for Burgundy is 1363 (for the historical, independent Duchy, instead of the short-lived/dependent kingdoms) but I was happy to see you decided to move it to 9th century at least (or whatever it was). So what happened to that discussion?

Poland

Starting city - some time ago st. lucifer agreed to my suggestion to move starting location to Poznan (65, 48). It's not that important, but people had issues with both Krakow being too close to Austria/Hungary, and Warsaw being incorrect, since it didn't even exist until several hundred years later (Poznan was historically before both, 9-10th c.). St. lucifer made the changes to the map, e.g. added the river for Poznan, but the starting location and Wroclaw's location (+1S, was too close) weren't changed since that's in Python. Also a more balanced alternative is to spawn & flip Krakow instead of Wroclaw/Breslau. Just bringing this issue to however feels like responsible for it

Here's the link to the discussion: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=250261&page=29

I'm still going to pester you about Winged Hussars - they currently replace Knights and appear around 12th century, while they're a 16th century unit that fought musketmen etc. They are a replacement for Cuirassiers, not Knights (it's in the pedia, even)

UP/UHVs are a separate discussion, but a quick note here to show the Polish UP needs to be re-done: it doesn't make sense with RFC/E rules, with hidden science modifiers in RFCEBalance.py. Look at that bonuses, next to the closest civs in terms of start date:
Germany: -20% Science
Poland: -50% Science
Genoa: -25% Science
So Poland is handicapped in terms of research (which is good for balance and historically correct) and then it gets an UP that gives it +10% Science? Not much of an UP, especially since even with the bonus, its research is still worse than other civs. For that matter, Golden Liberty wasn't about freedom of speech/thought but about nobles' independence and power over the elected king, essentially it just refers to the PLC's system of government - an oligarchy or "noble's democracy".

 

[AOS9001]

Well, I'm playing the game as the Byzantines, and up till the Ottoman spawn, there was one city that always kept declaring independence, Iconium. I would capture it, it'd stop resisting, then go independent the next turn, time and again. Also, when Arabia spawned, I went from very stable to unstable/collapsing in a matter of turns. Maybe that's supposed to happen, I don't know. But it was just kind of weird, once city always kept leaving the empire, and I couldn't build any city outside the core without it declaring independence the next turn. If I went and captured that city, it'd declare independence as soon as it was secured. It might be just me, but no matter what I did, I can't seem to get back to a stability where I can hold cities outside the core area. That makes the UHV all but impossible.

And when the Ottomans spawned, they went Catholic. Same goes for Arabia.

Also, on an unrelated note, does anyone know what music is used for the Magyars/Hungarians? I know I can get it in the files, but I'd like to find the name and all.

 

[Panopticon]

In my game, the Spanish Espionage bonus shows up in each individual city, but not in the detailed espionage tooltip, and not in the actual economy-wide total. It's attached.