RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

So are minor civs different from independents, or are they just 1-2 cities under the same independent civ? So roughly ever 10 turns or so, some city/cities are going to declare independence if they are currently held by a major civ? Also, whats this I hear about deterministic respawn dates?

Every X turns, some cities, somewhere in Europe, would TRY to declare independence. Stability would play a role, but you will not be able to completely prevent independence even with very high stability. Examples would be: Barcelona, Belgrade, Lithuania.
 
When the intervals are being selected, can we make this doesn't happen within 10 turns of some land-related UHV deadlines, like Poland's population objective or Sweden's expansion goal? I imagine players would get extremely frustrated if they had high stability and still got their victory stolen out from under them due to minor civs rebelling.
 
I've noticed Cyprus, Rhodes and Crete are in Arabs' normal area. This clearly shouldn't happen.

That's why they always get Rhodes, and not for assaulting it. Silly me...

I'll try to fix it later.
 
When the intervals are being selected, can we make this doesn't happen within 10 turns of some land-related UHV deadlines, like Poland's population objective or Sweden's expansion goal? I imagine players would get extremely frustrated if they had high stability and still got their victory stolen out from under them due to minor civs rebelling.

There are things that you can do to suppress a rebellion just as you could for a major respawn.
 
Hi Everyone,
After playing a few games on this latest version as the Venetians, English and Bulgarians I have come up with a list of things that I have critiqued. I am not saying this mod is bad, and if it was awful I wouldn't take the time to write this up, so please take this as constructive criticism rather then a list of things that were "bad". You guys have done a great job and this mod has come a long way, the last time I did this long list was a couple versions ago, and I can definitely see a trend of awesome looking progress coming up in this mod, just compare, the Ottomans and the Cordobans compared to what they use to be like. :) And please if there are any questions please ask me and I will go further in detail, as I couldn't write too much for each one.
Also if you look at page 8, where my original list of changes is, you can definitely see how far this mod has come :)
So here is the list, I tried to be more organized this time by assembling them into groups:
Spoiler :

Civilizations:
England
1. More settlers and maybe one or two more workers needed, England is way to big and way to bare, it needs to have more cities. Dark Ages England was a time of broken up kingdoms and fiefdoms; this should be represented more by independent cities, a few which don't flip to you
2. Resources are too spread out in England, they should be closer to potential city sites, for example compare London in RFC to London in RFC Europe, the resources are too far away from it, I would say put them closer to London to have a stronger impact (also around the Exeter, Plymouth area)
3. The English should start off with basic ships that can transport units across the water, again think of RFC, and how you start off with 3 galleys
4. Boulogne and Cherbourg are TOO weak, they are immediately captured by the French and there is no way of helping them out since you don't have any ships! I say the French and English shouldn't be at war from the start (since the English in 1066 were the Normans pretty much). And instead of having Boulogne, try to better represent the Normans by taking out Boulonge and adding Rennes (or Brest) and Cherbourg, and have them heavily defended, since these were the main fortresses of the Normans, and shouldn't collapse so easily.
5. Dublin is too well defended, the idea that they switch to crossbowmen is unbelievable, they should just have 2-3 archers no crossbowmen, or else the PC English will never invade Ireland
6. Whatever happened to the Normans?? 1066 is the year they come and invade England! Where are they represented? If anything you should start off in Rennes and have London flip to you or at least represent them by having another city in France (a total of 3) all well defended. The Normans were even more powerful then the French King! (for further info listen to: Norman Centuries, an excellent podcast)

Cordoba
1. I was very impressed by Cordoba and how great of a civilization it has become, I was especially impressed by how far it can reach in Europe, in every game it was able to take Toulouse all the way in Southern France, so the historical side of it is definitely ok, but something which bugged me to no end was the fact that they never expanded into Morocco, or North Africa for that matter. Especially since Morocco is so lush and rich now, I'm surprised the computer doesn't go for those spots, what I think needs to happen now is that there should be independent cities in North Africa which flip to them at 1040, the year the Almoravids took control of Spain, so with this change of powers, should come th rest of the independent cities in North Africa, or alternatively just have the independent cities flip when Cordoba is founded.

The Ottomans
1. Like the Cordobans, the Ottomans have been vastly improved from the last version I played them as, they have definitely taken huge strides towards becoming the real Ottoman Empire, but there should be some sort of incentive for them to change there capital from Bursa to Constantinople/Istanbul, I don't know how Rhye did it for RFC, but in Rhye's game they always switch from Sogot to Istanbul once they've taken it. Also if the AI is ever going to be able to take Europe or at least the Middle east they need more troops and a bigger area of expansion when they arrive, this will help them invade more territory, a good idea would be to have the Bulgarians at war with them so they would be able to expand into the Balkans quickly
2. The Ottomans power is sort of useless I find, either it should be changed to the normal RFC power of culture, or the percentage rate at which they get extra drafts should be lowered from 70% foreign culture to at least 40-50%, but that is up for debate.
3. A good idea for the Ottomans so for them to perhaps have some cities in the Levant flip to them, maybe that will help spur there capture of the Middle East
4. The Ottomans need to have more unique city names in the Middle East (Levant) because when they captured Al-Qods it was called Jeruslam also, when they captured Antyka it was called Antioch, more unique names should be added.
The Spanish
1. The Spanish should be given extra troops, like a LOT more troops around the 1400's, to represent the real reconquista of Spain by Ferdinand and Isebella (so around 1470), I have seen too many times the Cordobans never collapsing and holding on to Spain for too long or they just collapse by themselves, and the Spanish NEVER take back their cities, and instead become vassals of England (ironic ;)) or France. You could turn the Reconquista into an event that spawns units in North Eastern Spain. Also it would be even cooler if the army spawned with some religious persecutors like 5 of them.

Bulgaria
1. I don't have much to say about the Bulgarians, they were done quite well I suppose, but there is a bug in there UHV. The UHV stated that I needed to control all of Moesia, Thrace etc by 1400AD, but I got the goal just when I finished having my borders completely surround the area, so I didn't have to wait until 1400AD. I think there was also another bug for the other two UHV's, but I will look into that.

The Map:
1. Much more Independent cities are needed scattered across the map, especially around North Africa which is a huge waste of space since no one ever colonizes it. And for the few that are spread around Europe, they need to be better defended, too often do I see destroyed city ruins of barbarian, or independent cities
2. England is too big in general, it should be much smaller then France
3. There should be independent cities in Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily and Southern Greece (south of Athens) preferably Sparta
4. Why is Sicily an island? It makes controlling the place so much harder for the AI and for humans, just do what Rhye did in RFC, have a small land bridge which connects the boot of Italy with Sicily
5. Since Alexandria is part of the Byzantine Empire, I understand that they would add more defenders if necessary, but it becomes hard for the Arabs to expand Westward if they can't even capture an Independent Alexandria, there should be less defenders controlling Alexandria basically. Also the city of Cairo should be added, first as a Byzantine city with Christianity in it, and later an important Arab city, since Cairo was the regional capitol
6. More dense forest is needed in Northern Europe (including England) to make sure that there progress is checked, but instead what should happen is that when the Europeans finally are able to cut them down, they should get a bigger production boom from them, bigger then the normal cities. Also once again more independents are needed in Northern Europe
7. Marrakesh should be placed closer to Tangier, or else it is never captured and stays as a barbarian city for the rest of the game, either put it closer with less defenders or else just have it flip to the Cordovans when they arrive.
8. There should be a byzantine- Arab city in between Sour and Antakya (one more city for the crusaders to take as well). Some good once could be: Beirut, Byblos, Tripoli etc

Things in General:
1. Research rate is way too fast for all civs, this really shouldn't be, the only civs that should be speeding through at the beginning are the Arabs, Cordobans and perhaps the Byzantines. Each technology should be worth more research points or else your just speeding through the game, overall the game speed should be reduced for better gameplay or else your just speeding through the eras.
2. If you can have custom leader heads for all the other civilizations I'm quite sure you can have them for the Arabs who are misrepresented by Saladin, who only came much later and never controlled such a vast area, Saladin should be replaced by another Umayyad caliph who would best represent this area. Also on the topic of custom leader heads, Leopold and the Cordoban leader head could be given custom leaders heads, and also just as you vastly improved Sweden's leader head, please do the same to the Venetian leader whose eyes make him look as if he is blind
3. Still too many wonders that give away all the civics, I'm sure you guys can be more creative then that, plus it ruins the historical aspect to the game, if you need any help coming up with some, just ask.
4. Also the wonder, "The Dome of the Rock" should just spawn in Jerusalem once the Arabs take it or when Islam is introduced, also the same for the tomb of Al-Khalid, but that wonder I'm morel lenient about
5. Why is Temple Mount a wonder? If anything it should be a normal building or at best a national wonder, cities all over Europe and especially the Middle East had Jewish quarters. And instead of giving a merchant, let them give the city extra trade routes (or have 1 merchant, one extra trade route) but it should cause something like 2 unhappiness due to the unrest it would cause, but the amount of unhappiness is up to debate.
6. There should be more Jews in Muslim Spain and the Middle East in general to show the tolerance and something which the Spanish should have with them during the reconquista event is a lot of religious persecutors added so that they can have Spain with only one faith.
Questions:
1. What happens if you invade the Papal States, I'm Venice and I control all of Italy except for Rome, is it ok if I just invade them?
2. Do you guys think there will ever be Hotseat for this game?
 
Venice's leader WAS blind.
Sicily should remain an island. I disagree with the land bridge idea.

There should be more Jews in Muslim Spain and the Middle East in general to show the tolerance and something which the Spanish should have with them during the reconquista event is a lot of religious persecutors added so that they can have Spain with only one faith.
Hahaha, yeah, the tolerance of Islam... very funny rumour.
 
Even if the Venetian leader was blind, the leaderhead itself is quite poor quality compared to most others in the game and looks very much out of place.
 
I agree to a point... it's certainly better than the leaderhead for Genova, for example...
It could certainly stand some touch up... they could also add a new LH for Venice, Loredan. He has to be made first though!
 
Venice's leader WAS blind.
Sicily should remain an island. I disagree with the land bridge idea.


Hahaha, yeah, the tolerance of Islam... very funny rumour.

Well first off, the idea for the land bridge makes sense, since Sicily I have never seen Sicily be colonized, and this is due to the fact that the AI can't get to it, and its more troublesome for human players to get to it, it would make a lot more sense to attach it to Italy, just like in RFC.

Second off, yes there was religious tolerance in Muslim Spain (Al-Andalus), compared to the rest of Europe at the time (if not the entire world), the Muslim world was the most tolerent. In fact I'm currently reading a book about this fact, its called, "Emerald of the World: How Islam, Judaism and Christianity coexisted in Muslim Spain" written by a Spanish author. And currently there is no Jewish cities that spring up in southern Spain (Cordoba), so I think, since this is a historical mod, that it would be quintessential to have Judaism spread feverishly (well not too fast) in Muslim Spain and in the rest of the Middle East as well.
 
Hahaha, yeah, the tolerance of Islam... very funny rumour.

Actually the Jews in Islamic Iberia were very prosperous people, the times before the reconquista and the inquisition were a golden age for the Jews, many great Jewish people lived in that age, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambam which is one of the (if not THE) most famous scholars in Jewish history.
 
More tolerant "at the time" doesn't mean tolerant. I hate that people try to make this claim...
Basically it would be like saying Facist Italy was more tolerant than Nazi Germany. Still not tolerant...

Edit: Re: Sicily, I have seen the AI (independent) take Sicily many times. Also, I believe they just fixed the code so that major AI nations will also do it.
 
The Islamic world at the time was fairly tolerant of 'people of the book,' the major discrimination Christians and Jews faced in Arab lands was paying higher taxes. Compared to how Europe treated its religious minorities taxes are just peachy. How they treated the Indians is another story...

Anyway, in terms of game play would it be possible to have higher chance of foreign religious spread to Arab nations or to nations who adopt free religion? For the moment if Jews don't come to my cities I literally hunt them down in the cities of neighboring nations to build the Temple Mount.
 
Anyway, in terms of game play would it be possible to have higher chance of foreign religious spread to Arab nations or to nations who adopt free religion?
This would be completely odd... since they specifically forbad the proselytization of any other religion.
Existing "People of the Book" were allowed to live, if they 1) paid huge taxes, 2) submitted to the annual "disgracing", which was usually a public whack on the head. There were other examples too, not being equal in the eyes of the law, etc. It was hardly tolerant. It just wasn't, generally, mass murder (after they came in and had their initial bloody slaughterfests while conquering by force).

Again, your argument that parts of the Islamic world were "more tolerant" than parts of Europe is pretty odd. Again, Fascist Italy was more tolerant than Nazi Germany, but still not tolerant.
When I say tolerant, I mean in today's standards. Being a 9 on intolerance instead of a 10 on intolerance, on a scale of 10 (with 10 being the least tolerant... or like Islam today), doesn't make the 9 tolerant.
 
Well as Kaiser said it's all relative, of course I wouldn't like being treated differently just because I'm a Jew in Muslim-controlled Iberia but it beats being hunted with torches and being forcibly converted, of course those things happened in the Muslim part of Iberia and other Muslim controlled areas but they were a lot less frequent than in Christian lands.
Basically I'm trying to say that living as a Jew in Muslim lands was much easier than in Christian lands in the middle ages.
 
I guess that would depend upon where. Poland/Casimir the Great... pretty tolerant of the Jews, for example.
 
You mean when and where, but generally speaking, with a few exceptions like Casimir, Jews living in Islamic areas still had a much easier time than Christian areas.
 
I have to back kochman on this one. If the moors in al Andulas were generally Ok with Jews and many Christians, the rest was anything but tolerant. Levant, Egypt, Palestine and all of Anatolia were Christian and were not converted by missionaries. When Christian nation on the Balkans were conquered, they were only randomly prosecuted (a village here, a town there), however, they were generally referred to and treated as "cattle."

Giving higher spread of non-Islamic religions makes little sense. One can add more Jews (as I feel we need more Jews in the game overall), but Christian teaching did not spread throughout the Islamic world.

Free religion in our game is a shorthand for religious tolerance. There was no true concept of "religious freedom" in the time frame of the mod. The problem that we had was that some names for civics were too large, so we have Limited Monarchy as opposed to Constitutional Monarchy and so on.
 
Well first off, yes people of the book, had to pay higher taxes, but they were exempt from military service and other forms of mandatory government work. Also this rule of higher taxes was on and off, in the case of Al-Andalus there were no 'extra taxes' thats why many Jews and Christians flocked to places such as Cordoba or Toledo which were the cultural centers of the world rather then sit in the cesspool that Christendom had become at the time. And I don't understand why its so hard to have Jews spread faster in Al-Andalus? Also even though Poland might have been tolerant at one point, medival Poland never matched the granduer that was the Muslim World, so its no wonder why hundreds of Jewish and Christian families (mozarabs) fled Europe to Spain and the Middle East in general.

@3miro
Please be more clear, I'm not sure if I understand correctly what your trying to say
 
@3miro
Please be more clear, I'm not sure if I understand correctly what your trying to say

People are making arguments and trowing terms such as Christians and Muslims at random without specifying different versions of both religions as well as different time periods.

In Al Andulas, Muslims may have called Christians "people of the book", but in the Ottoman Empire, the word was "cattle." You cannot say Muslims were tolerant any more than you can say Catholics were intolerant, because you have both the Spanish Inquisition and the Polish Temple Mount. You may say that "overall" Muslims were nicer to Jews than Catholics, but that still leaves the rest of the Christian world. Jews had a huge community in Constantinople and one of the Bulgarian Queens was Jewish born (the King made her son the heir despite having an older son from a previous marriage, which practically caused a civil war, but this is another story). I am sure that the Protestant-Jewish relations varied from a country to a country.

My final point is: We need more Judaism spreading throughout (specifically Iberia), but we do not need to make specific modifications for religion spread in the Muslim world.
 
Let's not forget the entire concept of the "Janissaries", which is just plain evil. Stealing kids, brainwashing them, then having them fight against their own people/parents/siblings... just evil from an evil empire.

Good call Miro3... and I agree, Judiasm does need to spread a bit more than it does. Persecuted or not, the Jews were widespread throughout the entire map other than Scandinavia and the British Isles/Ireland really. France and Germany of course were examples of getting rid of them during the Crusages periods, and of course the Inquisition, but in Eastern Europe/Orthodox Europe the Jews were pretty well spread and relatively unharassed.
 
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