RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[civ_king]

We know you think that, you have said it 100 times. Why not just put it in your signature already?


Well, that's the thing, because it wasn't the counter-reformation that stopped Protestantism from entering the remaining catholic countries...
It was the inquisition in Spain/Portugal/Italy, murder in France, people leaving to escape persecution, etc...
All the counter-reformation really did was acknowledge and fix some of the protests that the Protestants had.
It was violence that stopped Protestantism's spread.

The Council, by virtue of its actions, repudiated the pluralism of the Secular Renaissance which had previously plagued the Church: the organization of religious institutions was tightened, discipline was improved, and the parish was emphasized. The appointment of Bishops for political reasons was no longer tolerated. In the past, the large landholdings forced many bishops to be "absent bishops" who at times were property managers trained in administration. Thus, the Council of Trent combated "absenteeism," which was the practice of bishops living in Rome or on landed estates rather than in their dioceses. The Council of Trent also gave bishops greater power to supervise all aspects of religious life. Zealous prelates such as Milan's Archbishop Carlo Borromeo (1538–1584), later canonized as a saint, set an example by visiting the remotest parishes and instilling high standards. At the parish level, the seminary-trained clergy who took over in most places during the course of the seventeenth century were overwhelmingly faithful to the Church's rule of celibacy, and lived in line with the Church's moral teachings.

New religious orders were a fundamental part of this trend. Orders such as the Capuchins, Ursulines, Theatines, Discalced Carmelites, the Barnabites, and especially the Jesuits strengthened rural parishes, improved popular piety, helped to curb corruption within the church, and set examples that would be a strong impetus for Catholic renewal.
The Theatines were an order of devoted priests who undertook to check the spread of heresy and contribute to a regeneration of the clergy. The Capuchins, an offshoot of the Franciscan order notable for their preaching and for their care for the poor and the sick, grew rapidly in both size and popularity. The Capuchin fathers were an order based on the imitation of Jesus' life as described by the Gospels. Capuchin-founded confraternities thus took special interest in the poor and lived austere lifestyles.
These differing approaches were often complementary, as with the missions to rural areas poorly served by the existing parish structure. Members of orders active in overseas missionary expansionism expressed the view that the rural parishes, whose poor state of affairs contributed to the growth of Protestantism, often needed Christianizing as much as heathens of Asia and the Americas.
The Ursulines focused on the special task of educating girls. Their devotion to the traditional works of mercy exemplifies the Catholic Reformation's reaffirmation of salvation through faith and works, and firmly repudiated the sola scriptura of the Protestants emphasized by Lutherans and other Protestant sects. Not only did they make the Church more effective, but they also reaffirmed fundamental premises of the Medieval Church.
The Jesuits, however, founded by the Spanish nobleman and ex-soldier Ignatius of Loyola (1491–1556), were the most effective of the new Catholic orders. His Societas Iesu was founded in 1534 and received papal authorization in 1540 under Paul III. An heir to the devotional, observantine, and legalist traditions, the Jesuits organized their order along military lines. The Jesuits strongly represented the autocratic zeal of the period. Characterized by careful selection, rigorous training, and iron discipline, the Jesuits ensured that the worldliness of the Renaissance Church had no part in their new order.
Loyola's masterwork Spiritual Exercises showed the emphasis of handbooks characteristic of the earlier generation of Catholic reformers before the Reformation. The great psychological penetration that it conveyed was strongly reminiscent of devotionalism. The Jesuits, however, are really the heirs to the observantine reform tradition, taking strong monastic vows of chastity, obedience, and poverty and setting an example that improved the effectiveness of the entire Church. They became preachers, confessors to monarchs and princes, and educators reminiscent of the humanist reformers; and their efforts are largely credited with stemming Protestantism in Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, southern Germany, France, and the Spanish Netherlands.

A bit more than what you said, and it did stem the spread of Protestantism

 

[kochman]

Wikipedia?

Look, the bottom line is, violence/aggressive reaction was the biggest deterrent to Protestantism... whether it was open war, the threat of excommunication, or the Inquisitors...

I agree that a counter-Reformation would be in interesting item. It did galvanize the people in certain countries. I don't think lower maintenance is the answer (if anything, it should cost more... it took a lot of indulgences to fund the wars against the Turks, etc)...
I actually think a stability boost is the answer, because it made the hardcore Catholic nations that much more zealous.

Or, perhaps, continued "crusades"... because really, how many wars were waged over this idea of people reading the bible in their own language? MANY.
They weren't called "crusades" (as far as I know), but the intent was the same.

I always found it odd how the Catholics of the time always referred to the "one church"... though they themselves were basically a protest of the Orthodox branch... as if it no longer existed (which was actually one of Luther's main points of contention, he didn't believe Orthodox were damned because they didn't follow Rome).

In the end, I would think the Counter-Reformation could be best reflected by more catholic missionaries and inquisitors in the countries that remain Catholic.

 

[Duke of Awesome]

but that would be pretty useless since missionaries are so cheap. it only takes a turn or two to build one. and as you said there were a lot of religious wars so having lower maintenance costs would make bigger armies and thus encourage more conflict

 

[kochman]

But, lower maintenance has no real historical backing... plus it would be applicable to all war, instead of war against the Protestants only...
In other words, the Catholic powers, which benefit greatly from the majority of nations being Catholic, would have bonuses versus ALL religions...

In game terms, this would be unbalancing.

 

[The Turk]

I like the idea of having inquisitors and Catholic missionaries spawn in the remaining Catholic nations, as part of an "counter-reformation" event

 

[merijn_v1]

@ kochman & civ king

would both of you please continue your conversation in this thread. It is specially made for things like this. (You find in the first post of the thread why)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=373520

 

[thwump]

Arabs already respawn around 1140. And their collapse before that is due to the killing combination of first/second crusade + Seljuks.

That is all fine, my concern is the ability of the catholic civ that takes the Holy Land in a Crusade to keep it for the rest of the game. Spawning barb units shouldn't be too difficult, would it?

And yes, I propose Counter-Reformation. For example, a number of turns after Protestantism appears, it could say on-screen:

"Counter-Reformation: The Roman Church has put years of inaction behind, and finally the Council of Trento is over. Now there's a real aim to fight back protestantism from the pulpits."

Then, a new bonus system has to be defined, different than before Printing Press. No bonus given randomly from the Pope, but a direct one from faith points as with the other religions. And of course it shouldn't be similar to the existing ones.

A bonus for culture and/or espionage points? Reduction for army maintenance cost? I don't know. Something.

I think this is the appropriate thread for the gameplay centered part of the discussion. The real problem is that if you are a catholic civ when the reformation happens, I see no reason why you would ever not embrace it. At that point the crusades are done and any gifts the pope could give you are insignificant. Diplomacy boost is basically a wash since you'll have civs on either side.

A transformation of the catholic bonus to something else that has a chance of competing with protestant bonus is a must if you want the reformation to be a strategically interesting decision. I'm not sure what that should be, though. It also probably doesn't have to be exactly equal in power to the protestant bonus since you should be able to keep your faith points so you would start off with a stronger version of it. A lot of the civs you would benefit more from a medium term bonus than the long term bonus of protestantism (long term because you have to build up faith points).

 

[kochman]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you switch to Protestantism your faith points start at zero...
That's kind of important isn't it?


Also, any thought to changing the "Great Prophet" into something else, namewise? I mean, there was really not any more prophesying going on in any of the religions portrayed in the book (unless you consider Nostradamus a prophet I guess).
Something like "Great Priest" or "Spiritual Leader" seems more accurate.
I guess this is pretty minor, but just a thought I had.

 

[Duke of Awesome]

how about after the reformation starts Catholicism gets a food bonus? based on faith points of course. the catholic nations were pretty big (Spain France Poland Hapsburg Empire Hungary).

 

[The Turk]

Quick question for merijn_v1 and other RFC Europe modders alike,

It has been a couple months since the last update, and this thread has been swirling with ideas, about how to better improve this mod, is an update to this mod even in the works currently? Or has production on this mod come to a standstill?

 

[JediClemente]

The problem with "prophets" comes from vanilla Civ4. It's not really an adequate name. Prophets existed only in Antiquity. I always asumed in later stages of the game (or in this case in RFCE) they were supposed to be Saints or Mystics.

It would be a very easy change of XML, if more people are for it. Scientist is already renamed Scholar.

I think this is the appropriate thread for the gameplay centered part of the discussion. The real problem is that if you are a catholic civ when the reformation happens, I see no reason why you would ever not embrace it. At that point the crusades are done and any gifts the pope could give you are insignificant. Diplomacy boost is basically a wash since you'll have civs on either side.

A transformation of the catholic bonus to something else that has a chance of competing with protestant bonus is a must if you want the reformation to be a strategically interesting decision. I'm not sure what that should be, though. It also probably doesn't have to be exactly equal in power to the protestant bonus since you should be able to keep your faith points so you would start off with a stronger version of it. A lot of the civs you would benefit more from a medium term bonus than the long term bonus of protestantism (long term because you have to build up faith points).

Thanks, you worded it better than me. Yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

[civ_king]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you switch to Protestantism your faith points start at zero...
That's kind of important isn't it?


Also, any thought to changing the "Great Prophet" into something else, namewise? I mean, there was really not any more prophesying going on in any of the religions portrayed in the book (unless you consider Nostradamus a prophet I guess).
Something like "Great Priest" or "Spiritual Leader" seems more accurate.
I guess this is pretty minor, but just a thought I had.

The bonuses are so insignificant by the time of switching

 

[merijn_v1]

Quick question for merijn_v1 and other RFC Europe modders alike,

It has been a couple months since the last update, and this thread has been swirling with ideas, about how to better improve this mod, is an update to this mod even in the works currently? Or has production on this mod come to a standstill?

The problem is, I have enough time to code (especially now, I don't have to go to school for the next month), but I only can code XML and do some artwork. I can't implant the ideas in this thread. And the coders who can don't have much time.

 

[wolfigor]

in my last game with Spain, Rome collapsed before year 1000 without any good reason.
It's not the first time that I see it happening... but quite interesting.
It gives me (Spain) the opportunity to conquer the full peninsula.

I wonder if the Pope will launch crusades anyway.

 

[AdrienIer]

Maybe Rome should be possible to conquer but with strong diplomatic maluses (-8 or something) towards catholic nations to make it usually unadviseable to dow Rome. It would end those strange events where you can conquer it anyway.

 

[AOS9001]

Maybe Rome should be possible to conquer but with strong diplomatic maluses (-8 or something) towards catholic nations to make it usually unadviseable to dow Rome. It would end those strange events where you can conquer it anyway.

I'd say something like declaring war on Rome makes every Catholic nation declare war on you and some kind of super-crusade starts up.

That wouldn't really have happened, though, since Rome was attacked by it's own Catholic buddies a few times. The Spanish sack of Rome in the 1500s comes to mind.

 

[civ_king]

immediate -8 and DoW with Catholics along with -x faith points if Catholic and +x if Protestant or Orthodox and raze Rome

 

[fdgsgds]

Well, you can't raze Rome because it's a holy city.

I think it would be nice to be able to take over Rome; after all, they did need protection against the Byzantines and Rome was taken over by Catholic nations a few times. It should give a negative diplo (not -8, but -4 "You invaded the Holy City!" maybe) to take it over.

The Pope should still be able to launch crusades after it, and should respawn after the controlling civ collapses (or loses Rome from civil war) or after 1500 A.D.

I like being able to control all of Italy, especially as Spain or Germany or France, which had all almost done it at one point in history.

 

[merijn_v1]

If it will be possible (I don't think it will), it should only be possible for Civs with Islamic State Religion.

 

[Zipzapzup]

The problem is, that you can't keep the Pope alive without one city atleast. And without the Pope having Rome the catholic faith bonus that gives you 50 gold from time to time wouldn't be existing because the Pope has no income. But perhaps the Pope can go to exile to another catholic civ and borrow one of their cities as long as Rome is captured.