RFC Europe Wonders
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
3Miro
Deity
OK, so add culture wonders, adding Cathedrals and the national Gallery, you don't need one or two tops (IMO).
operafantom
Chieftain
I have an idea about a Hungarian National Wonder with strongholds. In the middle ages there was a stronghold system in Hungary against the Ottomans. Maybe that could be in the game and there would needed 8 or I don't know how many strongholds built to make it. What about it?
st.lucifer
King
Two things:
First, it's not possible for each civ to have its own unique national wonder. Actually, I should say that this would be unlike both standard civ and standard RFC. It may actually be codeable, but I don't think it's a good plan.
Secondly, the stronghold system is already represented as the Hungarian UP.
operafantom
Chieftain
Allright I see.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Just found that someone has done the art for our Topkapi Palace wonder. This should be perfect IMO.
st.lucifer
King
That's a really cool power for the wonder, too. I wonder how hard it is to code? Where did you borrow it from?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Got it from the Downloads section on the CFC home page. And its already coded for Civ 4 like the other art I got from there. I just check there sometimes to see what's new.
I know it's probably only a pet peeve of mine, but could we get rid of all the wonders that aren't building? Please?
I really bugs me up when you can rush a Mozart sonatas with great architect (But this could be explained via the Freemasons thing) Why we couldn't have things like magna charta or golden Bule as an project?
I'm completely happy if we could find a building that would represent a concept very well - so we could have Versailles instead of Ich bin der Staat project. But we should find such a building.
Speaking of, could i propose another effect for Versailles? Instated of second capital, why we don't let emulate this concentration camp for nobles by unlimited number of aristocrats in the city where this wonder is build?
I really bugs me up when you can rush a Mozart sonatas with great architect (But this could be explained via the Freemasons thing) Why we couldn't have things like magna charta or golden Bule as an project?
I'm completely happy if we could find a building that would represent a concept very well - so we could have Versailles instead of Ich bin der Staat project. But we should find such a building.
Speaking of, could i propose another effect for Versailles? Instated of second capital, why we don't let emulate this concentration camp for nobles by unlimited number of aristocrats in the city where this wonder is build?
Alternatively Versailles could give free Aristocrats/Nobles much like the Great Library does in regular Civ IV.
I second the idea about wonders being restricted to being actual buildings instead of great works or projects. It's not a new idea but I agree with it.
st.lucifer
King
I was the one who made the proposal for more cultural achievements as wonders, so I guess it's up to me to defend it.
I can understand the argument against cultural works/achievements. They aren't 'wonders' in the sense that the Pyramids or the Colossus are/were; they don't stand as massive monuments to past cultures, reflecting the glory of a fallen civilization, which is more or less the definition of a wonder.
That being said, I'd argue that the cultural wonders proposed here are more important to our modern landscape than any of those older buildings are. The original Globe Theater may have burned to the ground, but the works of Shakespeare enjoy wider influence and exposure than ever. There may be no physical manifestation of the Golden Bull or the Copernican revolution, but those achievements have been absorbed into our global culture in ways no building could have been.
Additionally, some of the wonders of the Civ series are put in as placeholders for these accomplishments. Was there anything remarkable about Copernicus's observatory, when it was compared to Brahe's, or Galileo's? Was Magellan's ship a better model than those of his contemporaries? Is it the Globe theater we are immortalizing, for its acoustics or architecture, or the works of the most famous man associated with it? Some of the Civ wonders are even speculative, as with Cure for Cancer in Civ 1. What I've argued for is a move away from that model, which I view as inappropriate, to celebrate the achievements themselves.
Finally, we've tried to spread the wonders out among each of our civs, so that all are represented and none are over-represented. This is challenging for some - not all of our civs have an iconic building or monument that we can use for a global wonder. Even some of those that we are including, such as the Round Church for Bulgaria, are not well known outside of their home countries. The cultural achievements of some civs are far more widely known (and frankly, important) than their architecture.
Now, the issue you raised about great engineers is a good one. Certainly, it doesn't make sense for an engineer (or whatever we're calling an engineer - an architect, I believe?) to be able to rush Mozart's Concertos or the Magna Carta. Perhaps it does make more sense to make those projects rather than wonders, and I see no reason to object to that argument.
What do others think?
Incidentally, I like Cethegus's proposal for repurposing Versailles. Perhaps we should make the Summer Palace into a global wonder instead, to replace it?
I can understand the argument against cultural works/achievements. They aren't 'wonders' in the sense that the Pyramids or the Colossus are/were; they don't stand as massive monuments to past cultures, reflecting the glory of a fallen civilization, which is more or less the definition of a wonder.
That being said, I'd argue that the cultural wonders proposed here are more important to our modern landscape than any of those older buildings are. The original Globe Theater may have burned to the ground, but the works of Shakespeare enjoy wider influence and exposure than ever. There may be no physical manifestation of the Golden Bull or the Copernican revolution, but those achievements have been absorbed into our global culture in ways no building could have been.
Additionally, some of the wonders of the Civ series are put in as placeholders for these accomplishments. Was there anything remarkable about Copernicus's observatory, when it was compared to Brahe's, or Galileo's? Was Magellan's ship a better model than those of his contemporaries? Is it the Globe theater we are immortalizing, for its acoustics or architecture, or the works of the most famous man associated with it? Some of the Civ wonders are even speculative, as with Cure for Cancer in Civ 1. What I've argued for is a move away from that model, which I view as inappropriate, to celebrate the achievements themselves.
Finally, we've tried to spread the wonders out among each of our civs, so that all are represented and none are over-represented. This is challenging for some - not all of our civs have an iconic building or monument that we can use for a global wonder. Even some of those that we are including, such as the Round Church for Bulgaria, are not well known outside of their home countries. The cultural achievements of some civs are far more widely known (and frankly, important) than their architecture.
Now, the issue you raised about great engineers is a good one. Certainly, it doesn't make sense for an engineer (or whatever we're calling an engineer - an architect, I believe?) to be able to rush Mozart's Concertos or the Magna Carta. Perhaps it does make more sense to make those projects rather than wonders, and I see no reason to object to that argument.
What do others think?
Incidentally, I like Cethegus's proposal for repurposing Versailles. Perhaps we should make the Summer Palace into a global wonder instead, to replace it?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I agree that wonders need to be more than just buildings. It is also right that we should have a fair mix of cultural achievements to represent the advance of civilisation in our mod. I like wonders and still get a certain pleasure when I've managed to patiently build one after so many turns. I guess I'm one of those players who gets far more satisfaction from a good cultural or diplomatic win than a purely military victory.
But the issue of rushing wonders with engineers is something that has always concerned me in the same way that whipping is used to speed production. We do it only because it's allowed and it gets the desired result. But in the end it's just another lazy exploit like squatting or using World Builder in gameplay. What would we do without it? Maybe play with a bit more planning and intelligence? For my part, I wouldn't want to have whipping or rush-building in our mod at all.
What I would rather see is the achievement of building a wonder is rewarded with something a lot more significant than a few extra culture or happiness points. Maybe more like golden ages, free techs, upgrades for all units, a major stability, health or diplomatic boost, etc., something which actually contributes to our game play. Just rushing lots of wonders for the sake of it seems more like collecting baseball cards or stamps than any kind of significant or meaningful achievement IMO. (Nothing against baseball cards or stamps BTW)
But the issue of rushing wonders with engineers is something that has always concerned me in the same way that whipping is used to speed production. We do it only because it's allowed and it gets the desired result. But in the end it's just another lazy exploit like squatting or using World Builder in gameplay. What would we do without it? Maybe play with a bit more planning and intelligence? For my part, I wouldn't want to have whipping or rush-building in our mod at all.
What I would rather see is the achievement of building a wonder is rewarded with something a lot more significant than a few extra culture or happiness points. Maybe more like golden ages, free techs, upgrades for all units, a major stability, health or diplomatic boost, etc., something which actually contributes to our game play. Just rushing lots of wonders for the sake of it seems more like collecting baseball cards or stamps than any kind of significant or meaningful achievement IMO. (Nothing against baseball cards or stamps BTW
)Jessiecat's making a good argument. Would it then be possible that great engineers' production production hurrying could be removed from the mod altogether and replaced with a "great person building" that gives production? Perhaps something like a forge?
That way cultural wonders could stay as wonders they deserve to be and couldn't be rushed in any unnatural way. (Then again, we do have tree-chopping in the game still? Not saying we should give it up, just pointing it out.) If we would replace the Great Engineer function with something else, they wouldn't be made obsolete still. Or are settled Great Engineers (Architechs?) supposed to represent this by themselves?
Since I can't check it out myself right away; how is Industrial Revolution represented in this mod? Is the game supposed to last that far and are there factories present in the mod already?
If yes to the first question and no the second, perhaps the new proposed Great Engineer building (I'm sure there are engineering academies in Europe
) could be enabled with the introduction of a new tech much in the same way Military Academies work in BtS, being enabled with Military Science. Of course the proposed academies could be made as wonders, but I'd like to see a little more variety in the game than just who's the first to research which tech and who gets to build which wonder first. I'm sure others want a little more variety as well. Not even Academies are handed out to everyone in regular Civ, they're something special you have to work for and this way everyone would get a chance to be known for his country's special architechture.
Which reminds me, they could be made as national wonders (think of Scotland Yard) so no Civ could just rush engineers and become a production superpower in late medieval Europe. What do others think of this suggestion? Scrap production hurrying and replace it with a GP-only building with certain prerequirements?
That way cultural wonders could stay as wonders they deserve to be and couldn't be rushed in any unnatural way. (Then again, we do have tree-chopping in the game still? Not saying we should give it up, just pointing it out.) If we would replace the Great Engineer function with something else, they wouldn't be made obsolete still. Or are settled Great Engineers (Architechs?) supposed to represent this by themselves?
Since I can't check it out myself right away; how is Industrial Revolution represented in this mod? Is the game supposed to last that far and are there factories present in the mod already?
If yes to the first question and no the second, perhaps the new proposed Great Engineer building (I'm sure there are engineering academies in Europe
) could be enabled with the introduction of a new tech much in the same way Military Academies work in BtS, being enabled with Military Science. Of course the proposed academies could be made as wonders, but I'd like to see a little more variety in the game than just who's the first to research which tech and who gets to build which wonder first. I'm sure others want a little more variety as well. Not even Academies are handed out to everyone in regular Civ, they're something special you have to work for and this way everyone would get a chance to be known for his country's special architechture.Which reminds me, they could be made as national wonders (think of Scotland Yard) so no Civ could just rush engineers and become a production superpower in late medieval Europe. What do others think of this suggestion? Scrap production hurrying and replace it with a GP-only building with certain prerequirements?
I have no objection's against cultural/social/political achievements to be represent in this mod. But we should distinguish between project's and wonders. Both pyramids and US democracy are things burgess floods to visit and hope to emulate, but only one would stand there for another millennia to come if the land will be overran by enemy soldiers?
There is a technical difference between Project and Wonder in Civ mechanic. The later is a whore (Nothing against whores BTW) and will serve to anyone who will take them. But Projects have no cities in which they are located (and that means they can't provide a bonus to only one city (Beside capitol, IMHO), and can be removed only by the complete destruction of civilization.
And while the wonders in Civ have some cultural element in them we should better ask what could be better emulate as project better than wonder. What impact they have? Is Magna Charta better represented by some house or as a change in the society that can't be undone? And are Mozart's sonatas so special that they changed life of every peasant in Tyrol? Or are they better a result of certain cultural clime of Wien of that time and could be better represented by some grand-opera-building?
There is a technical difference between Project and Wonder in Civ mechanic. The later is a whore (Nothing against whores BTW) and will serve to anyone who will take them. But Projects have no cities in which they are located (and that means they can't provide a bonus to only one city (Beside capitol, IMHO), and can be removed only by the complete destruction of civilization.
And while the wonders in Civ have some cultural element in them we should better ask what could be better emulate as project better than wonder. What impact they have? Is Magna Charta better represented by some house or as a change in the society that can't be undone? And are Mozart's sonatas so special that they changed life of every peasant in Tyrol? Or are they better a result of certain cultural clime of Wien of that time and could be better represented by some grand-opera-building?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
@ Cathegus. I like your idea of a great person building maybe similiar to the Academy but having a specfic function depending on the type of Great Person. For example a settled Great Engineer could build a School of Architecture or a Mining Institute that increases the production of certain buildings or mines in the city. Or a Great Artist could build something like a Royal Academy of Art which boosts the cultural output of certain buildings. In the same way that a Great Spy can build Scotland Yard as you say.
What I'm trying to avoid is the possibility that a GP can pop a World Wonder in one turn rather than the required 50 or 60 turns. I'm not against increasing the production rate of wonder building but GP powers should be made more gradual and incremental rather than instantaneous.
As for your question about the Industrial Revolution and factories, the mod ends in 1800 when the I.R. had barely started and the factory system didn't really exist until the wider application of steam power. I think we've seen it more as an end of tech tree similiar to Future Tech in BTS. I think its best to keep it in that context for now.
I like your ideas though. I think we should look again at GPs and what we really want them to do in this mod.
What I'm trying to avoid is the possibility that a GP can pop a World Wonder in one turn rather than the required 50 or 60 turns. I'm not against increasing the production rate of wonder building but GP powers should be made more gradual and incremental rather than instantaneous.
As for your question about the Industrial Revolution and factories, the mod ends in 1800 when the I.R. had barely started and the factory system didn't really exist until the wider application of steam power. I think we've seen it more as an end of tech tree similiar to Future Tech in BTS. I think its best to keep it in that context for now.
I like your ideas though. I think we should look again at GPs and what we really want them to do in this mod.
st.lucifer
King
@ Cathegus. I like your idea of a great person building maybe similiar to the Academy but having a specfic function depending on the type of Great Person. For example a settled Great Engineer could build a School of Architecture or a Mining Institute that increases the production of certain buildings or mines in the city. Or a Great Artist could build something like a Royal Academy of Art which boosts the cultural output of certain buildings. In the same way that a Great Spy can build Scotland Yard as you say.
What I'm trying to avoid is the possibility that a GP can pop a World Wonder in one turn rather than the required 50 or 60 turns. I'm not against increasing the production rate of wonder building but GP powers should be made more gradual and incremental rather than instantaneous.
As for your question about the Industrial Revolution and factories, the mod ends in 1800 when the I.R. had barely started and the factory system didn't really exist until the wider application of steam power. I think we've seen it more as an end of tech tree similiar to Future Tech in BTS. I think its best to keep it in that context for now.
I like your ideas though. I think we should look again at GPs and what we really want them to do in this mod.
I'm with you on this, much as I love hoarding great engineers for the wonders I want. The mining institute idea is a good one, but only helps out a city with decent production already - is there something else that might fit for any city? An inventor's workshop or something similar?
3Miro
Deity
We should always keep in mind that there is a level of abstraction in the Civ's system of wonders. St. Lucifer made a good point with the Shakespeare's Theater, also noone immigrated and became a US a specialist because of the Statue of Liberty (I spend here 8 years before I went to NY to see the statue). The SoL is just a symbol of an underlying ideals within the US society. In the same way, the big Bulgarian achievement was the separation of Bulgarian church from both Rome's and Constantinople's influence and Bulgarian becoming the first recognized Christian language outside the original three. The Round Church is simply a symbol of the achievement.
The strength of the Civ series comes from the fact, that Civ doesn't get bogged down in perfect simulation of history or over political correctness. The developers are not afraid to sacrifice some "correctness" to gain meaningful improvement in gameplay. We should follow similar philosophy.
I have no problem with removing the rush factor for the Engineers, however, we have to make sure they don't become useless. In general we are introducing many changes to the gameplay, our game is a lot less like Civ then RFC is. The outcome would be interesting to see, but we should prepare for a period of tedious tweaking and re-balancing.
Proposal: Engineers/Architects can build: Great Forge +5 hammers +25% hammer bonus. That way it would make sense to build in any city.
The strength of the Civ series comes from the fact, that Civ doesn't get bogged down in perfect simulation of history or over political correctness. The developers are not afraid to sacrifice some "correctness" to gain meaningful improvement in gameplay. We should follow similar philosophy.
I have no problem with removing the rush factor for the Engineers, however, we have to make sure they don't become useless. In general we are introducing many changes to the gameplay, our game is a lot less like Civ then RFC is. The outcome would be interesting to see, but we should prepare for a period of tedious tweaking and re-balancing.
Proposal: Engineers/Architects can build: Great Forge +5 hammers +25% hammer bonus. That way it would make sense to build in any city.
I had something similiar in mind, regarding the effects. I'm sure there are engineering academies even in Paris or Copenhagen, although in RFC they're few of the least productive capital cities in all of Europe.
So, not only percental bonus but solid effects as well.
I like the suggestion.Maybe we can work out something out of this. Should we keep this discussion in this thread or nominate a new thread for brainstorming for the new GP buildings?
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