RFC Europe Wonders

[jessiecat]

I have only 2 objections to the list of colonies as proposed.
1. The Hudson's Bay Company did not exist until almost 1800. The bulk of the North American fur trade was carried out by the French from Quebec and Montreal from the early 1600's. It was only the defeat of the French in Canada in 1759 which allowed the British to establish a monopoly on the fur trade. Better to rename it to the Quebec colony.
2. Capetown had little economic importance before the mid 1700s. Whereas the East African trade in slaves, ivory and spices had been well established by the Arabs based at Zanzibar for at least the last 800 years of our mod. Why not rename as the Swahili Coast as originally suggested?

 

[st.lucifer]

I'm going to start adding in some of the easy/uncontroversial wonders from Jessiecat's latest list. This is a going to take a while.

I thought it would be useful to have the information on colonial projects posted in this thread too. As I understand it (please correct me), Cornelio has posted this suggestion for how colonial projects work:



St. Lucifer was interested in developing his own list and then we'd combine these ideas, and I think we're still waiting on this. It would be useful to get these colonial projects settled and coded so that we can add in some more UHVs.

I'm sorry to have held things up - I became distracted by a number of other issues and forgot about it. Let's go with the existing list for now, assuming that making changes to it aren't extremely difficult.

 

[jessiecat]

As promised, here's a slimmed-down and much revised list of Wonders for us to consider. In all cases I've described their function and/or what they would replace in RFC.

National Wonders

National Theatre (replaces Globe Theatre)
National Gallery (replaces Hermitage)
National University (replaces Oxford University)
Royal Academy (replaces Great Library)
National Epic (as RFC)
Heroic Epic (as RFC)

Projects

East India Company
West India Company
Hanseatic Ports
Sugar Plantations
Ivory Trade
Slave Trade

Colonies

-list still under discussion

World Wonders(35)

The Sistine Chapel, Rome (as RFC)
Versailles, Paris (as RFC)
Notre Dame, Paris (as RFC)
The Leaning Tower, Pisa (as RFC)
The Tomb of Khaled ibn Walid, Aleppo (replaces Mt. Rushmore)
The Theodosian Walls, Constantinople (replaces Chichen Itza, +25% defense of cities?)
Krak des Chevaliers, Lebanon (replaces the Great Wall but gives only free castles per city built)
Topkapi Palace, Constantinople (replaces the Pyramids -same effect)
Statue Of Odin, Norse (replaces the Moai Statues)
The Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem (replaces the Taj Mahal)
The Monastery of Cluny, Burgundy (replaces the Universityof Sankore)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon)
The Gardens of Al Andalus, Cordoba (replaces the Hanging Gardens)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya)
The Round Church, Bulgaria (replaces Stonehenge, removes war penalties agst Orthodox civs., uses Oracle art.)
The Alhambra Palace, Granada (replaces the Parthenon)
The Brandenburg Gate, Berlin (replaces the Statue of Zeus)
The Basilica San Marco, Venice (replaces the Temple of Artemis)
The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Great Lighthouse)
The Palacio de Pena, Portugal (replaces Christo Redentor)
The Giralda Tower, Seville Spain (replaces the Spiral Minaret)
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces Broadway)
St. Basil's Cathedral, Moscow (replaces Rock and Roll)
St. Sophia Cathedral, Kiev (replaces Hollywood)
The Jewish Quarter of Krakov, Poland (establishes Judaism in every large city?)
The Temple Mount, Jerusalem (removes all penalties for Judaism in all cities?)
Leonardo's Inventions, Italy (as in Civ3)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)
Magna Carta, England
Aztec Conquest??
Inca Conquest??

Just to keep things up to date, this was the most recent list I proposed. It would be good to get a few of these that we are agreed on up and running ASAP.

 

[Cethegus]

For how many wonders can be found graphics already? Which ones need to be created original artwork?

 

[jessiecat]

For how many wonders can be found graphics already? Which ones need to be created original artwork?

We've got art for over half and I may be able to find a couple more. but the rest we need original artwork for.
ie.
Krak des Chevalers
The Dome of the Rock (maybe Tai Mahal art?)
The Theodosian Walls ( maybe Great wall button)
The Statue of Odin (Statue of Zeus or Colossus art)
Kalmar Castle
The Golden Bull
Palazzo San Giorgio
The Giralda Tower
St. Basils Cathedral
St. Sophia Cathedral
The Jewish Quarter
The Temple Mount
Rembrandts Masterpiece
Mozarts Concertos
Magna Carta

EDIT I've found a bit more art that might stand in for the Dome of the Rock, Tomb of Khaled ibn Walid and others. Bethlehem could stand in for the Jewish Quarter and the Doges Palace for the Palazzo San Giorgio.

 

[civmademepoor]

Since we already have a dome of the rock are in the holy building, might it be better to use that and chose something else for the Islamic holy city marker?

 

[jessiecat]

Since we already have a dome of the rock are in the holy building, might it be better to use that and chose something else for the Islamic holy city marker?

Not really. As we are using the Masjid Al-Haram which is founded in Damascus (instead of Mecca) when Islam is established, we could still have the Dome of the Rock as a World Wonder.

 

[sedna17]

I've got art for the Theodosian walls and the "Norse Wonder" (which I'm making the Shrine of Uppsala instead).

 

[st.lucifer]

How easy is it to change the function of wonders once they're coded in? There have been some good suggestions since the original wonder list, and we may want to revisit some others.

Also, in the current list, I think we had agreed that there would be no Broadway/Graceland/Wembley analogues, right?

 

[sedna17]

Wonder effects are either achievable in XML or Python. Generally speaking, mix-matching of any pre-existing building/wonder is easy to add via XML and thus easy to change. It is quite easy to grab an existing wonder and slap a new name/art on it.

Truly new effects will normally be done in python. In my current work I've been playing with Leonardo's workshop -- due to changes inherent in RFC this will require work in the DLL (i.e. C). Almost all things are possible here, but relatively more time-consuming, since they require some extensive testing and debugging to make sure they work.

That said, once we have powers and artwork in, swapping those around is always easy. So if ya'll decide that the Sistine Chapel and Notre Dame should have each other's effect, that's easy to do.

Just a few wonders will make it into the next version:

The Sistine Chapel
Versailles
Notre Dame
The Leaning Tower
The Theodosian Walls = Chichen Itza
Topkapi Palace (allows you to train your vassals' UU, super-cool)
Shrine of Uppsala = Moai Statues

 

[jessiecat]

Wonder effects are either achievable in XML or Python. Generally speaking, mix-matching of any pre-existing building/wonder is easy to add via XML and thus easy to change. It is quite easy to grab an existing wonder and slap a new name/art on it.

Truly new effects will normally be done in python. In my current work I've been playing with Leonardo's workshop -- due to changes inherent in RFC this will require work in the DLL (i.e. C). Almost all things are possible here, but relatively more time-consuming, since they require some extensive testing and debugging to make sure they work.

That said, once we have powers and artwork in, swapping those around is always easy. So if ya'll decide that the Sistine Chapel and Notre Dame should have each other's effect, that's easy to do.

Just a few wonders will make it into the next version:

The Sistine Chapel
Versailles
Notre Dame
The Leaning Tower
The Theodosian Walls = Chichen Itza
Topkapi Palace (allows you to train your vassals' UU, super-cool)
Shrine of Uppsala = Moai Statues

The Great Wall button could be used for the Theodosian Walls though. It looks good to me.

 

[jessiecat]

Also, in the current list, I think we had agreed that there would be no Broadway/Graceland/Wembley analogues, right?

Then St. Basil's and St. Sophia cathedrals will have to assigned different benefits if we're sticking to the one wonder per civ minimum. Right?

 

[sedna17]

I was listing the effect of each wonder, not the artwork. I think 3Miro had suggested that St. Basil's and St. Sophia cathedrals could be pure culture wonders or culture multipliers. What do people think of this idea? I agree that we won't be doing any "hit singles"-like wonders.

 

[st.lucifer]

Then St. Basil's and St. Sophia cathedrals will have to assigned different benefits if we're sticking to the one wonder per civ minimum. Right?

Yeah. That shouldn't be too difficult, though - really, it would make more sense for them to have different functions anyway. I can't really see a justification for giving access to a unique luxury resource by building St. Sophia's, can you?


Perhaps we should keep the base list of wonders, and then debate function for each? Some should be open-and-shut cases, others might be a little more complicated.

 

[jessiecat]

I was listing the effect of each wonder, not the artwork. I think 3Miro had suggested that St. Basil's and St. Sophia cathedrals could be pure culture wonders or culture multipliers. What do people think of this idea? I agree that we won't be doing any "hit singles"-like wonders.

That sounds good for those two. But I wouldn't want to see a lot of wonders that have just a culture-boost function. Some should have a powerful effect on gameplay like unit promotions, free techs, production boosts or enhanced diplomacy modifiers. I'd love to see something like the old Statue of Zeus from Civ3 that produces an extra UU every few turns, for example.

 

[Whitefire]

Also, in the current list, I think we had agreed that there would be no Broadway/Graceland/Wembley analogues, right?

Disagree. There should be a pre-built wonder in Jerusalem that generates Holy Artifacts for Islam and Catholicism. One in Constantinople for Orthodox and maybe a third in Rome that generates for Catholicism as well. This will help give an incentive to Crusading, make it easier to code Euro AIs to crusade, make future events more fun, create a better sense of world (especially since the sale of religious artifacts was common in the period), etc.

 

[sedna17]

The idea of relics as a new resource is definitely an interesting one. I would imagine that relics would be a +happiness with cathedrals/grand-mosques sort of thing, with the bonus limited to relics of the correct faith. Some of the religious "corporations" (Templars, Hospitallers, Teutonic Knights...) could use relics as input resources as well.

 

[Whitefire]

Exactly. We would also code an event that would allow a civ that has built enough Cathedrals (say 4) to discover a holy relic left behind by a saint, i.e. makeup some . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . to get more money from the People. Or even add an AP resolution granting access to holy relics for all member nations. That way everyone gets a chance at the luxury, but the crusaders get more bonuses from corporations from having excess relics.

 

[Whitefire]

Another idea for a project or wonder:

The White Company: Double revenue from mercenaries.

 

[st.lucifer]

Disagree. There should be a pre-built wonder in Jerusalem that generates Holy Artifacts for Islam and Catholicism. One in Constantinople for Orthodox and maybe a third in Rome that generates for Catholicism as well. This will help give an incentive to Crusading, make it easier to code Euro AIs to crusade, make future events more fun, create a better sense of world (especially since the sale of religious artifacts was common in the period), etc.

I really, really like this idea. I'd suggest 'The True Cross' for Jerusalem, but that wouldn't have any value for Islam - 'The Prophet's Beard' would be a good Islamic version, but wouldn't necessarily be in Jerusalem.

I'm not sure what would work for Orthodoxy.

Would the Protestant Reformation then render the happiness bonus of all relics obsolete?