RFC Europe Wonders

[sedna17]

We'll work out the bugs in colony prereqs soon enough.

The question of where to put "Atlantic Access" is a good one. I just put some on the map -- we've had no discussion of them. I agree that the Copenhagen one is dodgy. If anything, the Swedish have a stronger claim to have overseas colonies. What if I move that one in their direction (so that the Danes and the Swedes will have to compete for it?)

I think I gave Spain, France, and Britain two each (and Portugal + Netherlands 1). This probably is a bit too many. Maybe the appropriate formula should be that these three big colonial powers get one safe and then one in conflict. Thus England gets one on the west coast and then there's one in the channel fought over (potentially) by France and the Netherlands. France also gets one "safe" one on the western coast. Spain gets a relatively safe one, and one that should be in conflict with Portugal. That would be 8 total. I like the _possibility_ of a few non-major powers trading for Atlantic access.

 

[merijn_v1]

If someone can tell me how I want to do some art-work for some wonders if it isn't too hard.

 

[Verily]

Here's where I would say the Atlantic Access locations should be...

1. Portsmouth, England
2. Nantes, France
3. Marseilles, France/Burgundy[1]
4. Cadiz, Spain/Cordoba[2]
6. Lisbon, Portugal
7. Amsterdam, Netherlands
8. Gothenburg, Sweden

[1]Allows Burgundy to colonize if it survives, historically accurate that many French colonizers left via the Mediterranean
[2]Requires Spain to conquer Cordoba to establish colonies, allows Cordoba to colonize if it survives that long (which would be realistic)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...3219497407878329975.000464ed8eb804bd48d11&z=5

 

[jessiecat]

Here's where I would say the Atlantic Access locations should be...

1. Portsmouth, England
2. Nantes, France
3. Marseilles, France/Burgundy[1]
4. Cadiz, Spain/Cordoba[2]
6. Lisbon, Portugal
7. Amsterdam, Netherlands
8. Gothenburg, Sweden

[1]Allows Burgundy to colonize if it survives, historically accurate that many French colonizers left via the Mediterranean
[2]Requires Spain to conquer Cordoba to establish colonies, allows Cordoba to colonize if it survives that long (which would be realistic)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...3219497407878329975.000464ed8eb804bd48d11&z=5

I'm fine with those but with these changes.

1. Bristol, England.
2. Plymouth, England
3. Nantes, France
4. Marseilles, France
5. Cadiz, Spain or Cordoba
6. La Corunna, Spain
7. Lisbon, Portugal
8. Amsterdam, Netherlands
9. Tonsberg, Norway or Sweden
10. Kiel/Lubeck, Germany (or possibly Poland)

Plymouth and Bristol were important earlier than Portsmouth. La Corunna allows Spain access even if Cordoba controls Cadiz. The Norse should have access even when Sweden spawns. Sweden would have to conquer Tonsberg for access. Germany should have a chance at colonies as well. This allows Portugal, Spain, Cordoba, Germany and the Norse all to have access, if they survive. And makes it possible for Sweden and Poland to gain access by conquest.

 

[sedna17]

If someone can tell me how I want to do some art-work for some wonders if it isn't too hard.

Do you mean for the pictures displayed when you build the wonder? It's not too hard.

Crop an image to be rectangular, with a ratio of 2:3 (i.e. the width should be 3/2 the height). Then resize the image to be 512x512 pixels. This will distort/stretch the image, but that's okay because Civ re-stretches it when it displays it. Then convert to DDS. I use a Mac program for this, but DXTBMP (google it) seems to be the best free tool on the Windows side. Just import your picture into the image side (ignore the alpha channel) and save as DXT 3.

If you want to do one as a test and send it to me I can verify that it's set up correctly.

 

[merijn_v1]

I accualy ment then structure of the wonders. Like you see them in the city.

 

[sedna17]

Atlantic Access:

Nice use of google maps, Verily!

I guess the difference between your list and Jessiecat is mainly how scarce Atlantic Access should be.

Currently Atlantic Access just makes colonies half-price. As such, it should be relatively scarce, to provide a boost to the historic colonizers. Other nations could still build colonies at increased cost.

We could also make Atlantic Access required to build any colonies. With this, I think it would be important to have it more widely available to give other civs a chance to trade for Atlantic Access from someone with a surplus.

I'm not totally sure which is the better approach.

BTW: The AI should love to pillage the "colonial trade routes" you build on "Atlantic Access" because they have a very high pillage return (average of 100 gold).

 

[sedna17]

I accualy ment then structure of the wonders. Like you see them in the city.

Oh. That's a lot more complicated. I don't know how to do it yet. All the existing wonders are built by someone else. You can check out the Modding Tutorial and Reference Forum http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=177 to get you started. If you want to learn how that would be awesome.

 

[jessiecat]

My list only adds 1 more (10 instead of 9) but you could drop Plymouth as Bristol was more important. I just tried to give possible access to more civs. (ie Germany and Poland).

If you read my game report, I mentioned how keen the AI was in trashing my AA's.

 

[micbic]

I'm fine with those but with these changes.

1. Bristol, England.
2. Plymouth, England
3. Nantes, France
4. Marseilles, France
5. Cadiz, Spain or Cordoba
6. La Corunna, Spain
7. Lisbon, Portugal
8. Amsterdam, Netherlands
9. Tonsberg, Norway or Sweden
10. Kiel/Lubeck, Germany (or possibly Poland)

1) Bristol or Plymouth, IMO. Better Plymouth.
2) Perhaps Bordeaux instead of Nantes and Marseilles. Burgundy shouldn't be given a chance to colonize, they must be destroyed
3) About Tonsberg: I would actually prefer Goteborg. The Norse built colonies MUCH before 1500 (when Swedes spawn)
4) Lubeck would be preferable to Kiel, IMO. (though Germans were not much of a historical colonizer)

All other points OK.

 

[Verily]

La Coruna should not have Atlantic Access. First, Spain would be small and weak without conquering Cordoba (or Portugal); this should be borne out in colonization. Secondly, La Coruna was never a significant colonial port until after our period, nor did it have the harbor to be one before technology advanced to the late 18th century. (The harbor at neighboring Ferrol was used for military expeditions to nearby areas in Europe, but that was because it was so close to other European powers.) Finally, for strategic reasons, we would like to minimize the number of different sources of Atlantic Access.

 

[jessiecat]

La Coruna should not have Atlantic Access. First, Spain would be small and weak without conquering Cordoba (or Portugal); this should be borne out in colonization. Secondly, La Coruna was never a significant colonial port until after our period, nor did it have the harbor to be one before technology advanced to the late 18th century. (The harbor at neighboring Ferrol was used for military expeditions to nearby areas in Europe, but that was because it was so close to other European powers.) Finally, for strategic reasons, we would like to minimize the number of different sources of Atlantic Access.

Point taken. If we drop that as well as Lubeck and Plymouth, that makes 7. That means the Norse and Sweden would compete for Tonsberg, while Spain and Cordoba fight for Cadiz. Few enough for you?

 

[Lexad]

+1. Make it scarce, to be valued. 9-10 is too much, should be more like 4-5. Conquer or vassalize atlantic nation to get the resource if you don't have yours.

Some colonies like 2 Africas and Malaya should be available w/o AA, or give Arabs/Turkey one too.

 

[jessiecat]

+1. Make it scarce, to be valued. 9-10 is too much, should be more like 4-5. Conquer or vassalize atlantic nation to get the resource if you don't have yours.

Some colonies like 2 Africas and Malaya should be available w/o AA, or give Arabs/Turkey one too.

As I suggested in my game-testing report, Gold Coast and East Africa should become available first to obtain slaves. As you suggest, the Ivory Coast and Gold Coast should be buildable by anyone without Trading Companies. It should need Astronomy though. Historically, the Arabs traded extensively in East Africa and India long before European explorers arrived. Not Malaya though IMO. A bit late for that.

 

[Lexad]

As I suggested in my game-testing report, Gold Coast and East Africa should become available first to obtain slaves. As you suggest, the Ivory Coast and Gold Coast should be buildable by anyone without Trading Companies. It should need Astronomy though. Historically, the Arabs traded extensively in East Africa and India long before European explorers arrived. Not Malaya though IMO. A bit late for that.

Checked Malacca - agree, you're totally right.

 

[jessiecat]

After the above discussions can I summarize what seems to be a consensus. I'll side with Verily and others on the need to restrict Atlantic Access to a few spots. Though access should not be required to build all colonies. Just the two trading companies. And I agree that colonies should be available for all civs. Though most civs will have little incentive to build them. So I propose the following changes.

1. All colonies should require a Trading Company but not Atlantic Access.

2. Atlantic Access should halve the cost of building colonies (as now)

3. Atlantic Access locations should be the following;
Plymouth
Amsterdam
Tonsberg
Bordeaux
Marseilles
Lisbon
Cadiz

4. West India Company should enable Gold Coast first (Brazil should come later). East India Company should enable East Africa first. This gives civs a chance to gain slaves before building later colonies.

5. Virginia Colony production time should be reduced by slaves. Not the East Indies as we have it now.

6. Colonies should recieve the same points reward as World Wonders (ie. 50pts. or whatever)

If people can agree on the above as a working compromise, could we have these for the next version, please.

 

[BurnEmDown]

I'd rather move the Cadiz one up to the northern coast of Spain. After all Spain rarely manages to conquer Cordoba so most of the times it won't be able to get Atlantic Access. This should be changed back once everything is balanced and at least half the times Spain manages to conquer Cordoba.

 

[jessiecat]

I'd rather move the Cadiz one up to the northern coast of Spain. After all Spain rarely manages to conquer Cordoba so most of the times it won't be able to get Atlantic Access. This should be changed back once everything is balanced and at least half the times Spain manages to conquer Cordoba.

I see your point. But when I'm playing as Spain I always conquer Cordoba. So the problem doesn't arise.
What the AI does, well. The AI is stupid isn't it?

 

[Lexad]

Agree. It would take something extraordinary for AI to accomplish at least 2 UHV conditions. So think about human gameplay first.

 

[micbic]

Jessiecat had once a game where Poland achieved an UHV.