RFC players' first impression of Civ 5

I'm probably not even getting Civ5 once there is a Rise-and-Fall feature. The whole combat system doesn't make any sense - especially on a world map. Sure, it could be modded out but then the question is how well the AI will be able to handle itself in combat. It would have to be done as well - or better - as the present AI.

And I think I fully realize how and why the combat system works the way it does. I'm a Panzer General player, after all... :rolleyes: (The combat system is supposed to be modeled after that franchise.) The problem is the scale of the game.
 
I haven't played it yet (poor hardware :/ ) but this topic makes me think that ciV is much better than I thought. Of course it is worse than RFC but still it's a good game with a lot of potential and RFCiV will be better than RFC itself. For sure it's different but once we get used to it mane "bad" features will become "neutral" or even "good". I remember my first "meet" with RFC. Friend of mine said it's good. I downloaded it, installed played a bit and thrown away. It was different. It was a lot worse than vanilla for me. But after Warlords expansion I tried it again and... I play it up to now (with one long break :P ). I think the same case is with ciV.
 
Great synopsis Mxzs, you totally speak from my heart. It's only that ...
Now, everyone is busy defending this as "tactical gameplay," and I see the point.
... I can't even agree with that. Civ is not a series of tactical games at all. It's global strategy. If I want to play a tactical game, I can play Panzer General or Battle Isle all day. That's as if they took Master of Orion and produced a sequel that turned a game full of interesting decisions into a table calculation.

Oh, wait, they did :p
 
Yeah, some of the new features hold a lot of potential - like a hexagon world map or minor civs/city states. But I don't think I will ever be able to get used to the new combat mechanisms on such an epic map scale. I'd much rather continue development on RFC (for CivIV) and see what improvements can be made - and also what features from Civ5 can be incorporated into it.

Stuff like having some 100 Civs included in RFC - but only allow for about 20 to exist at any one time. Then make collapses - and respawns - commonplace. Some number of independent place holders would manage thing in-between spawns.

Also, there should be open borders with the independents as default. Then there needs to be some sort of interface for declaring war on independent cities - preferable on a city-to-city basis. So each independent city would have its own attributes for stuff like what player it has trade routes with. The city could have its own units - so that another city isn't gonna attack you just because they share the same player.

It will never be the same as the city states of Civ5 but still. A lot can be done if you're just willing to hack into the SDK, or so I believe.
 
Just slogged through a Warlord game of Civ 5. Built/conquered all wonders as Rome, conquered 1 civ and several puppet city-states, built a spaceship in 2017. BORING!
Just tech to infantry and the AI will have no counter. They were still using swords and arrows in 2017!
Very annoying thing--you have to send all spaceship parts to capital and there are no airports!
UN victory is impossible on a large map (you can't send troops from China to America in time to conquer the 3 independent cities in SAm). Thought about going for cultural but didn't have the patience. (I only had 2 social policies completely unlocked--liberty, commerce). Great artists are USELESS...culture bombs are duds.
At least I got Augustus Caesar at the end.
Worst wasted 12 hours of my life.
Somehow the odd number Civs are not as good as the even numbered ones.
 
And I'm left thinking that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. So ... I have magical archers who can hit Paris while sitting on the slopes of the Alps? And they in turn are vulnerable to a ship cruising just off the coast of Rome? Say what you will about stacks of doom (and I see lots of people running around now arguing that SoD were the worst thing ever invented, and that they always hated them), but when an SoD pulled up next to a city, I knew that was a gameplay representation of a battle that took place in a space that would have been far, far smaller than a pixel. I did not look at units and see warriors who were 200 miles tall walking across a landscape; I could easily reinterpret them as representations of real people down in that landscape. That's one of the things I really liked about the Civ games: you really could view them as a sweeping historical pageant and not just as "chess with lots of funny rules."

My thoughts exactly.
 
AnotherPacifist, that sounds pretty... awful. :p As I said; not getting it.
 
I was thinking for the 1upt issue that the game could introduce something like supply lines. Early in the game, the reason you can only have 1 unit type on a tile is simply because it is difficult to ferry goods and services around the region. So at base, only 1 unit per tile. If the tile has a road and that road is networked to your capitol, you can have 2 units per tile and make use of advanced logistics. Then sprinkle some 'logistics' technologies around the tech tree to simulate the ability of the same size of terrain supporting greater numbers of units throughout history. Things like food preservation via canning, pasteurization, freeze drying, etc. Some sort of tech past currency that deals with that math/monies side of logistics and keeping track of stuff. Even just the development of the simple covered wagon allows for easy transportation of supplies to distant troops.

When playing I definitely got the board game vibe from it, not the epic empire vibe I had in previous games. It really annoys me to think of all the time and money they spent on the various animated leaders and yet didn't spend very much on the interface or design aspects. Did none of these jokers play vanilla Civ4 and then load up BUG to see what a huge difference it made?
 
I keep thinking "Civ: Call to Power," which may be an even worse insult. It feels like an imposter. It baby-fies things that really worked, like the tech slider, happiness, and health, and then adds complications that have nothing much to do with the underlying game.

If you take out the 1upt change, what are you left with?

1. New map and border style. It's very nice; I'd even call it massive step forward as far as immersiveness, because it makes boundaries and borders and geographical features much more organic looking. I've been wanting an "expand by only one tile" feature since Civ I, and I can't tell you what a relief I feel to finally have it. But by itself, these do not justify a "V" in the series.

2. Radical simplification of empire management. Civ IV finally found the balance between builder/quality and expansion/quantity strategies. You had to expand to get resources, but you were sharply limited by costs until the late stages when for sound economic, social, and technological reasons large political units become viable. In the meantime you had to gin up super-efficient small empire because the world wouldn't go away just because you had to stay small. You had custom-craft each city for production, research, culture, Wonders, etc., and you had lots of viable strategies to choose from--Wonder economies, specialist economies, cottage economies, etc. It was a long and steep learning curve, but worth it. CiV? Well, I have to play around with it some more, but an empire-wide cap on happiness is a far cruder way of imposing early game limits. The lack of city-specific health and happiness bottlenecks takes away one of the environmental shapers that forced you to custom-craft a city to minimize its weaknesses while trying to build to its geographical strengths. "Cottages" (now trading posts) do not evolve. I feel like I've had a superbly made toolbox taken from me and gotten "Baby's First Hammer and Screwdriver" as a replacement.

3. Diplomacy: You can do research pacts, which substitute for tech trading. That's a step back, both in complexity and immersion. Open borders? No change. Resource trading? No change. Map trading, civics, religion? Gone. The deletion of map-trading is especially irksome. That's like an FU move on the designer's part. "Let's take out something people like and want for absolutely no good reason, just so they know who's the boss in this relationship." New stuff? You can sign "Pacts of Cooperation" or "Pacts of Secrecy" which do ... No one knows. There's no documentation on them. You can't tell how or why someone is pissed at or pleased with you. Foreign leaders will pop up with these gnomic, passive-aggressive declarations ("It's a shame that the world is full of people who pick on those who are weaker than them") and you're supposed to reply either "Very well" or "You'll pay for that." I want a button that says "Oooooooohhhhkay. Moving on ..." Diplomacy in Civ I made more sense.

City-states are a subdivision of diplomacy. They deserve more study before getting a final judgment, but my first impression is that they and their quests lack variety. It's funny: they have more detail and fit in more complexly than the independent cities in RFC, but they actually feel blander for it. It's a paradox, but it sometimes happens ...

4. Social Policies: Civics, treated like a tech tree. It might be a good advance after you play with it and figure it out some more, but it feels like a wash.

5. Bells and whistles: Animated leaders look nice, but they have about 1% of the personality of the leaderheads in Civ IV. Did you love it when Catherine slapped you? Did you LOL at some of those faces that Alexander (the CivIV original, not the RFC modification) pulled? In CiV they stand in a garden and look at the birds and drop these diplomatic koans, and I'm the one who's left screaming in frustration like Pacal.

Wonder movies--to be fair, how were they going to improve on those in CivIV? But the "movies" here feel like they decided to not even compete. Since they carried over sound effects from Civ IV, why not carry over the movies? Soundtrack--I gather this is now civ-specific, not era-specific, but the soundtracks for the Persians and Aztecs, at least, are generic faux-tribal wallpaper. And I like my music to evolve along with my tech. It's an aural reward for doing well.

So ... a new map style that is very good. The bulk is unchanged or significantly degraded. That leaves the combat system as the only really new thing, and it breaks immersion and feels like it was put in by a designer who was itching to play Panzer General and wanted to force us to play it too.
 
Please continue writing reviews Mxzs! It's sad to hear that my fears concerning Civ5 came true, but I still have to chuckle when I read this :D
 
I don't want to be in the business of reinforcing prejudices, and I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'm also trying to look at things I don't like and figure out how a patch or a mod might fix them. I'll have a post later about specialists, and how they seem seriously effed, but I'll also try to show how a mod could easily fix the issue in way that keeps what is good about the new rules while still returning them to the glory days of Civ IV.

For now, though, I have to admit it is easier to spot things you don't like than things you do. (Of course, it's human nature to do that. I bet Adam opened his eyes the first day in the Garden of Eden, wrinkled his nose, and said "What's that smell?") The 1upt rule, for instance, really effs up the automoves. Just now, in my new (third) game I had an archer two hexes from a barb encampment, bombarding it. I told a warrior to move toward the encampment and take position in the hex between the archer and the camp. After a few moves, I noticed he was going in the wrong direction. I looked at the geography more closely, and realized that because of the 1upt rule, and the local terrain, that warrior was trying to make a circuitous 12-hex counterclockwise trek around a mountain and the barb camp to get into the position I ordered. In classic Civ, he could have made the journey in 4 moves by going through the Archer, and I still could have done it in 4 or five moves if I'd babysat the units and swapped them around myself.

Now, when your new system comes close to destroying the automove function, you know something is wrong.
 
As far as wonder movies, they need to go back to the style they used in Civ2.

And the dude doing the voice over work is terrible. Bring back Nimoy, or at least some other actor/actress that actually knows how to read lines with some passion and emphasis.
 
Wow - I really don't want to buy ciV now... thanks mxzs
 
The 1upt rule is OK as long as allies or civs with OB arrangements are allowed to use the same roads and tiles to PASS BY. Right now, your workers can be on the same tile as your military, but not the case for other civs' or indy cities' units.
You can't even pass military through cities (which are connected by roads) and have to skirt around them to direct military to places that you want.
The whole of Asia was clogged up by 1 worker in the only road, my Silk Road.
 
I believe that from now on hexes and 1upt are inevitable. The only question is scale - whether the engine can possibly support maps large enough to make Earth-type maps reasonably playable (which is, to my mind, twice the size of Rhye's original map to compensate for ranged units). If it can, and unless the promised modding capabilities are a sham, there most certainly will be a next-gen RFC, and we will greatly enjoy it.
 
The whole of Asia was clogged up by 1 worker in the only road, my Silk Road.

LOL. I picture Genghis Khan, balked of conquering Samarkand, because the road is blocked by an old peasant woman and her bad-tempered ox.

I would like to hear from experienced RFC players with positive observations to make about the new game. I'm trying to find some, and I think some of these issues can be patchable. The question is, how far will the patches have to go before it just turns CiV into Civ IV on a hex-board? [Which wouldn't be a bad thing, IMO, but might turn the developers off to making the patches in the first place.]

I'd put it like this: Do you know someone who gave up on Civ after Civ III, because Civ IV felt so intimidating? Give them CiV. Except for the combat, it feels like a Civ IV tutorial.
 
I'd put it like this: Do you know someone who gave up on Civ after Civ III, because Civ IV felt so intimidating?

I wasn't intimidated by Civ4 I just found it too different (Also I have a poor computer). I just came to Civ4 only a few months ago but now it's hard to go back because you get used to things. I played a short game of Civ2 and realized how broken the diplomacy is.
 
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