Phallus
Freudian Slip
No lefty vegetarian would ever misplace the h in Gandhzilla!
Rfc++
- Thread starter Vishaing
- Start date
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
SOMEONE FINALLY NOTICED!
I've been waiting for forever to change that title XD
I'll ninja edit my thoughts on the civics, I really will.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
My primary suggestion is that you work on making it so that later civics do not make earlier ones absolutely worthless.
Also, I'm not sure how you have them organized. It should be by tech that makes them available (earliest to latest).
HOWEVER, I also think it would be really cool if civics could go obsolete.
Thingies:
Absolute Democracy should be Democracy. I realize that humans are stupid and will misinterpret, but you can just tell them to look at a dictionary. Democracy is the better term.
Oligarchy is weak as nuts. Bureaucracy sucks ass, and this is even worse. Especially considering how powerful some of the other ones are, it seems like a bad idea to punish the crap outta this one.
Monarchy benefit should go to Professional Labor. Cottage spammers shouldn't get their holy grail that early. Replace it with a +3exp bonus and +20% ww (because war spammers should have to deal with ww too)
Single and Multiparty seem unfocused. Also, gold hurry should not go to a government type. Give it to a few of the more advanced economic groups. Plus, I have no clue what the beakers to gold would do. Would that rape academies or make them super awesome?
Why does caste system give happies? I'd suggest unhappies in the big cities and +2 free specialists
Camaraderie +50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities. Nobody wants to see their comrades die in battle, love thy neighbor, and cooperation results in better science
Liberalism needs a second look, but I've got no real thoughts
Change guilds to Unionized Labor and make it come somewhat later, like around industrialism, when the cities are getting REALLY big. +2 hammers all specialists, +25%gpp, -20% science
Socialism: +3health +3happy all cities, +100% ww +20% maintenance (good health plans, good retirement plans, expensive as hell. Ask any Scandinavian how they feel about socialism)
Professional Workforce: -20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce (post industrial workforce transition from production to service with a move to the "burbs")
Barter Economy: no trade routes (I realize trade occurred earlier than mercantilism, but I see no reason to provide people with a powerful resource like that until later in the game)
Trade Fairs (late classical/early medieval, low upkeep), +25% commerce all cities, no trade routes
Mercantilism: +50% distance maint (all those customs officials cost a buttload), no foreign trade, +100% domestic trade, +1 free merchant all cities over size 5
Free Trade: add in -50% distance maintenance (waaaay less to supervise), keep the rest the same
I'll look at the rest some other time, figure this is enough to chew on for now XD
Also, I'm not sure how you have them organized. It should be by tech that makes them available (earliest to latest).
HOWEVER, I also think it would be really cool if civics could go obsolete.
Thingies:
Absolute Democracy should be Democracy. I realize that humans are stupid and will misinterpret, but you can just tell them to look at a dictionary. Democracy is the better term.
Oligarchy is weak as nuts. Bureaucracy sucks ass, and this is even worse. Especially considering how powerful some of the other ones are, it seems like a bad idea to punish the crap outta this one.
Monarchy benefit should go to Professional Labor. Cottage spammers shouldn't get their holy grail that early. Replace it with a +3exp bonus and +20% ww (because war spammers should have to deal with ww too)
Single and Multiparty seem unfocused. Also, gold hurry should not go to a government type. Give it to a few of the more advanced economic groups. Plus, I have no clue what the beakers to gold would do. Would that rape academies or make them super awesome?
Why does caste system give happies? I'd suggest unhappies in the big cities and +2 free specialists
Camaraderie +50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities. Nobody wants to see their comrades die in battle, love thy neighbor, and cooperation results in better science
Liberalism needs a second look, but I've got no real thoughts
Change guilds to Unionized Labor and make it come somewhat later, like around industrialism, when the cities are getting REALLY big. +2 hammers all specialists, +25%gpp, -20% science
Socialism: +3health +3happy all cities, +100% ww +20% maintenance (good health plans, good retirement plans, expensive as hell. Ask any Scandinavian how they feel about socialism)
Professional Workforce: -20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce (post industrial workforce transition from production to service with a move to the "burbs")
Barter Economy: no trade routes (I realize trade occurred earlier than mercantilism, but I see no reason to provide people with a powerful resource like that until later in the game)
Trade Fairs (late classical/early medieval, low upkeep), +25% commerce all cities, no trade routes
Mercantilism: +50% distance maint (all those customs officials cost a buttload), no foreign trade, +100% domestic trade, +1 free merchant all cities over size 5
Free Trade: add in -50% distance maintenance (waaaay less to supervise), keep the rest the same
I'll look at the rest some other time, figure this is enough to chew on for now XD
hmmm, let's see;
Oligarchy:
Perhaps up it a lot, I'm honestly thinking perhaps upping it to +100% for both. THAT would turn any capitol into a mega city worthy of great works of art. It should help Rome out in the beginning as I think they should have the tech to start with this one at spawn.
Monarchy:
I'm thinking about giving Monarchy back its happiness with troops bonus, but I want it to get something else too, can't think of what. the +50% war weariness would be a good limitation to it, although counterproductive to the +happiness as in a war your units won't be in your cities as much. Then again, perhaps that is a good dynamic...
Singleparty:
I tried to represent most modern fascist dictatorships with this, and these were the traits that came to mind. I figured if 1984 was the ultimate expression take a look at its qualities, and it had an increase in millitary production, forced happiness through removal of dissenters, and hatred of the enemy to reduce war weariness.
Multiparty:
the hurry with gold is removed, I haven't added it to a specific civic yet, but it will probably go to free market. Also, the beakers to gold won't do anything to academies. What it will do is make specialists produce gold instead of beakers. This gold is put into the city commerce pool and can then be converted to beakers by the tax slider. It shouldn't hurt academies at all though.
Caste System:
2 free specialists for unhappiness in big cities... I had given it the +happy for big cities to represent that all of the wealthy elite (those who benefit from the caste system and are thus happy) live in the big cities. Perhaps Liberalism's current happiness in big unhappiness in everything else would be done better justice here?
Camaraderie
+50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities sounds pretty good.
Liberalism:
I want to keep the culture boost to help new civs (like America) catch up to the old civs culturally and have any chance of going Culture victory. I don't think it needs the +10% commerce, but I like the relationship between the unhappy poor people and the happy big city people.
Guilds:
I wanted guilds to represent the actual guild labor structure of pre Black Plague Europe. But realize now that its available at pretty buch the exact same time as Feudalism. So maybe moving it back would be a good idea. I think I'm going to wait for a second oppinion (need to get SadoMacho back into this discussion.)
Socialism:
I like your ideas, far less generic.
Professional Workforce:
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce sounds perfect, and simulates the change in the world economic structure from a production based economy to a financial based economy just as you said. Well done.
Barter Economy:
No trade routes total is an idea, But I think the no foreign trade would be better because without any trade the economy would be horribly crippled.
Trade Fairs:
Replaces closed economy I take it? And by no trade routes do you mean NONE at all? I'm not sure if that's possible. If you mean no foreign trade than I don't know, that's been given to pretty much ever economic civic save the last three.
Mercantilism / Free Market:
I think we disagree what distance maintanence is caused by. Personally I see the Mercantile system as being what fosterred colonial development. But I could be wrong, I have never really studied this era very well, especially not the economic structure. I'm worried that the combination of no foreign trade and +distance maint will kill most economies, not sure however. please give some reasons for the changes.
Towards your first few comments;
1: I feel that some civic styles simply are not suitable for the modern world, such as slavery, not really very compatible with contemporary society
2: No real organization yet, just them there. In the final version I actually code I will definately put them in order from first discovered to last discovered.
3: So do I. It would be very cool if instead of just changing from Slavery to Serfdom, the Slavery civic merely 'upgraded' to Serfdom, but I don't think I have the ability to code that.
Oligarchy:
Perhaps up it a lot, I'm honestly thinking perhaps upping it to +100% for both. THAT would turn any capitol into a mega city worthy of great works of art. It should help Rome out in the beginning as I think they should have the tech to start with this one at spawn.
Monarchy:
I'm thinking about giving Monarchy back its happiness with troops bonus, but I want it to get something else too, can't think of what. the +50% war weariness would be a good limitation to it, although counterproductive to the +happiness as in a war your units won't be in your cities as much. Then again, perhaps that is a good dynamic...
Singleparty:
I tried to represent most modern fascist dictatorships with this, and these were the traits that came to mind. I figured if 1984 was the ultimate expression take a look at its qualities, and it had an increase in millitary production, forced happiness through removal of dissenters, and hatred of the enemy to reduce war weariness.
Multiparty:
the hurry with gold is removed, I haven't added it to a specific civic yet, but it will probably go to free market. Also, the beakers to gold won't do anything to academies. What it will do is make specialists produce gold instead of beakers. This gold is put into the city commerce pool and can then be converted to beakers by the tax slider. It shouldn't hurt academies at all though.
Caste System:
2 free specialists for unhappiness in big cities... I had given it the +happy for big cities to represent that all of the wealthy elite (those who benefit from the caste system and are thus happy) live in the big cities. Perhaps Liberalism's current happiness in big unhappiness in everything else would be done better justice here?
Camaraderie
+50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities sounds pretty good.
Liberalism:
I want to keep the culture boost to help new civs (like America) catch up to the old civs culturally and have any chance of going Culture victory. I don't think it needs the +10% commerce, but I like the relationship between the unhappy poor people and the happy big city people.
Guilds:
I wanted guilds to represent the actual guild labor structure of pre Black Plague Europe. But realize now that its available at pretty buch the exact same time as Feudalism. So maybe moving it back would be a good idea. I think I'm going to wait for a second oppinion (need to get SadoMacho back into this discussion.)
Socialism:
I like your ideas, far less generic.
Professional Workforce:
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce sounds perfect, and simulates the change in the world economic structure from a production based economy to a financial based economy just as you said. Well done.
Barter Economy:
No trade routes total is an idea, But I think the no foreign trade would be better because without any trade the economy would be horribly crippled.
Trade Fairs:
Replaces closed economy I take it? And by no trade routes do you mean NONE at all? I'm not sure if that's possible. If you mean no foreign trade than I don't know, that's been given to pretty much ever economic civic save the last three.
Mercantilism / Free Market:
I think we disagree what distance maintanence is caused by. Personally I see the Mercantile system as being what fosterred colonial development. But I could be wrong, I have never really studied this era very well, especially not the economic structure. I'm worried that the combination of no foreign trade and +distance maint will kill most economies, not sure however. please give some reasons for the changes.
Towards your first few comments;
1: I feel that some civic styles simply are not suitable for the modern world, such as slavery, not really very compatible with contemporary society
2: No real organization yet, just them there. In the final version I actually code I will definately put them in order from first discovered to last discovered.
3: So do I. It would be very cool if instead of just changing from Slavery to Serfdom, the Slavery civic merely 'upgraded' to Serfdom, but I don't think I have the ability to code that.
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
I'm sorry I haven't repied earlier, but I've been ill.
I have taken a look but I still need to think a lot of things over, but it look quit nice.
some idea :
these are me first ideas, going to look on some details, but you did a nice job.
I have taken a look but I still need to think a lot of things over, but it look quit nice.
some idea :
Spoiler :
? socialism gives all people the same starting chances to get an education. Equal chances to all people, rich or poor. Combing this with 1 party system and state propery and you get the soviet model. Combing this with free market and Multiple party system, and you get the scandinavian model. Change this please. It should be in the social civic to, not in the labor civic.these are me first ideas, going to look on some details, but you did a nice job.
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
1) that's what i liked to seen too, civ's bwith old obseleted civic should fall behide and be destroyed, addapt or die out, to quote Darwin
3) that's what i like to see to, civics that changes with the tech tree
Example :
Representation (=multiple party system) : let it come with code of law
The romans had a senat, that was repesentation
then came Constitution, an improvment for the repres.
Then, democraty, even better...
i like aeon's idea on socialism
Some questions:
What exactly do you mean by Oligarchy? While the literal meaning of the term means "rule by the few" (which few?) the Ancient Greeks used the term to denote "rule by the rich", as opposed to the well born. In which case Oligrachy presupposes hereditary rule.
If by the few you mean any "few" then the civic would be a bit vague since it can refer to any kind of ruling class, many of which are very distinct from one another.
Why does cast system provide happieness? Is is because are happy when they have well defined roles to play in the world?
Why does comradship produce science? Perhaps it should reduce corruption or war wearieness?
What exactly do you mean by Oligarchy? While the literal meaning of the term means "rule by the few" (which few?) the Ancient Greeks used the term to denote "rule by the rich", as opposed to the well born. In which case Oligrachy presupposes hereditary rule.
If by the few you mean any "few" then the civic would be a bit vague since it can refer to any kind of ruling class, many of which are very distinct from one another.
Why does cast system provide happieness? Is is because are happy when they have well defined roles to play in the world?
Why does comradship produce science? Perhaps it should reduce corruption or war wearieness?
lumpthing
generic lump
I'm just going to make a few very subjective comments on flavour (as opposed to gameplay) issues:
Oligarchy: What does this represent exactly? Systems where there was representation but not universal suffrage? If so I'd prefer the term Representation or Elitist Democracy because I think it better expresses the relative progressiveness of such a system. All governments are oligarchies to some extent so I find the term rather vague.
Democracy: If oligarchy is limited democracy, what is Democracy? Universal Suffrage? Bear in mind that almost no country had universal suffrage until the 20th Century (I can only think of New Zealand). I'd prefer a term to distinguish it from Oligarchy, such as Universal Suffrage or Mass Democracy (a bit vaguer and broader than Universal Suffrage).
Single Party System: Please can't we just call this Dictatorship or Totalitarianism. I think these terms are just so much more evocative than "Single Party System"
Multiparty System: What is the conceptual difference between this and Democracy?
Camaraderie: What does this mean? It's sound more like a utopian ideal than anything that has existed.
Liberalism: Again, what does this mean? Liberalism has been used in a social context to mean all kinds of things.
Professional Labor: Again, please could you clarify what this means?
Atheism: Hurrah! At last something to represent Communist states that suppress all religions.
Unionization: This term almost always refers trade unions, so I think it's confusing in this context. How about Empire or Unity or Distant Lands?
Commonwealth: What does this represent exactly? An association of sovereign states along the lines of the Commonwealth of Nations or the the Commonwealth of Indepedent States? If so, how does it differ from Sovereign Nations?
What's the conceptual difference between Imperialism and Colonialism?
*************
Okay, a bit on gamplay...
Organized Religion: Personally I've never seen a reason why missionaries should effectively become obsolete in the modern era unless you have Organised Religion. There are plenty of missionaries going about their business to this day. I also don't like the way that Organised Religion's missionary-building ability means that Organised Religion discourages the building of monasteries and is the best civic for spreading ALL religions (not just State Religion). That just doesn't suit the flavour of Organised Religion. I propose making it so that monasteries never go obsolete (and, if possible, reducing their culture/science bonuses to compensate) and dumping Organised Religion's build missionary ability.
City States (and other completely disunited systems): Shouldn't there be some kind of nod to the fact that a disunited system is actually a very bad way to run an empire because everyone is doing their own thing? I mean you could make a good case for maintenance costs going up because there is no central way of controlling things, more economic tariffs and restrictions etc. At the very least there should be more war unhappiness because of the difficulty of uniting a bunch of city states. Historically, city states (of Italy and Greece for example) were frequently at war with each other. Same goes for Sovereign Nations and, possibly, Commonwealth.
Oligarchy: What does this represent exactly? Systems where there was representation but not universal suffrage? If so I'd prefer the term Representation or Elitist Democracy because I think it better expresses the relative progressiveness of such a system. All governments are oligarchies to some extent so I find the term rather vague.
Democracy: If oligarchy is limited democracy, what is Democracy? Universal Suffrage? Bear in mind that almost no country had universal suffrage until the 20th Century (I can only think of New Zealand). I'd prefer a term to distinguish it from Oligarchy, such as Universal Suffrage or Mass Democracy (a bit vaguer and broader than Universal Suffrage).
Single Party System: Please can't we just call this Dictatorship or Totalitarianism. I think these terms are just so much more evocative than "Single Party System"
Multiparty System: What is the conceptual difference between this and Democracy?
Camaraderie: What does this mean? It's sound more like a utopian ideal than anything that has existed.
Liberalism: Again, what does this mean? Liberalism has been used in a social context to mean all kinds of things.
Professional Labor: Again, please could you clarify what this means?
Atheism: Hurrah! At last something to represent Communist states that suppress all religions.
Unionization: This term almost always refers trade unions, so I think it's confusing in this context. How about Empire or Unity or Distant Lands?
Commonwealth: What does this represent exactly? An association of sovereign states along the lines of the Commonwealth of Nations or the the Commonwealth of Indepedent States? If so, how does it differ from Sovereign Nations?
What's the conceptual difference between Imperialism and Colonialism?
*************
Okay, a bit on gamplay...
Organized Religion: Personally I've never seen a reason why missionaries should effectively become obsolete in the modern era unless you have Organised Religion. There are plenty of missionaries going about their business to this day. I also don't like the way that Organised Religion's missionary-building ability means that Organised Religion discourages the building of monasteries and is the best civic for spreading ALL religions (not just State Religion). That just doesn't suit the flavour of Organised Religion. I propose making it so that monasteries never go obsolete (and, if possible, reducing their culture/science bonuses to compensate) and dumping Organised Religion's build missionary ability.
City States (and other completely disunited systems): Shouldn't there be some kind of nod to the fact that a disunited system is actually a very bad way to run an empire because everyone is doing their own thing? I mean you could make a good case for maintenance costs going up because there is no central way of controlling things, more economic tariffs and restrictions etc. At the very least there should be more war unhappiness because of the difficulty of uniting a bunch of city states. Historically, city states (of Italy and Greece for example) were frequently at war with each other. Same goes for Sovereign Nations and, possibly, Commonwealth.
lumpthing
generic lump
On the comments about slavery not being compatible with modern society I completely disagree. Slavery is ideologically incompatible with modernity but, economically, it is in no way a defunct system that has been 'upgraded'. Slavery has (nearly) disappeared because it was deliberately suppressed and because a universal consensus that it is wrong has developed. Slavery never showed any signs of fading away for economic reasons - it was very much a political and moral struggle which abolished it.
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
OK, after a small dialog with myself (yes, I know I'm crazy) I have made some changes to your civic system. They were clearly based on my ideas, and you made some changes to it, but now I changes some things back and made some things different from my original ideas:
I marked the changes ones with ***, some changes are minor, some major
I liked the last category very much, I didn't change a thing.
Democraty and Oligarchy, it needs some working on, but i haved got any ideas at the moment.
I marked the changes ones with ***, some changes are minor, some major
Spoiler :
per city.I liked the last category very much, I didn't change a thing.
Democraty and Oligarchy, it needs some working on, but i haved got any ideas at the moment.
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
On Government :
1)Despotism
2)Hereditary Rule + 1
for every unit in city
tech : monarchy; upkeep : low
Don't take away Egypte's UP
This is the old monarchy, like the Pharaoh, and the kings of Europe,...
3)Oligarchy +1 , +1 from walls, +10% gold in all cities, +25% hammer in capiatl
tech : writting upkeep : low
Athens, Rome, Sparta,...
Early forms of representations in history, and later on in England, after Manga Carta, and after the French revolution in France
4) Absolute Monarchy : +100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2
from palace, barracks +1XP extra
tech : divine right; upkeep middle
Louis XIV goverment, all nobles around him, in his capital, so he could rule absolute.
5)Totalitarianism = single party system, I like -ism, if you leave the i out, even more
6) Representation
1)Despotism
2)Hereditary Rule + 1
for every unit in citytech : monarchy; upkeep : low
Don't take away Egypte's UP
This is the old monarchy, like the Pharaoh, and the kings of Europe,...
3)Oligarchy +1
, +1 from walls, +10% gold in all cities, +25% hammer in capiatltech : writting upkeep : low
Athens, Rome, Sparta,...
Early forms of representations in history, and later on in England, after Manga Carta, and after the French revolution in France
4) Absolute Monarchy : +100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2
from palace, barracks +1XP extratech : divine right; upkeep middle
Louis XIV goverment, all nobles around him, in his capital, so he could rule absolute.
5)Totalitarianism = single party system, I like -ism, if you leave the i out, even more
6) Representation
I have officially become suicidal. I'm now looking through the SDK code for the techs to try and find a way to add a 'with technology bonus' tag to it. If I can do this, I can make civics that change with technology.
I figure if I can find the tag that enables adding bonuses to specific improvements I should be able to reverse engineer it for civics, just with a lot more options because there are also more yields.
Until I figure that out however I'm going to be only partly involved in the discussion, as I want to focus on finding and implementing this code. As such I'm going to generally leave SadoMacho in charge of the discussion, though I have a few points first;
For now however, these are the civics i am looking at;
(Some Notes) I want to keep Socialism in the labor option, as I feel it is more a form of labor than an ideology. That's what Camaraderie is supposed to be, plus I don't think 'Industrial Revolution' is a good term for a civic, and it seems very close to 'Professional Labor', which I'm going to change to 'Professional Workforce'. I'm unsure about the governmental reforms you've proposed, but I also like them, and I think they are more well thought out than mine, so I intend to use them until someone proposes something better.
On the socialism idea, I just had an idea i can't really describe, which has conflicted me on the issue, so I am not sure, please make your cases one way or another to help me out.
*** Denotes civics being actively discussed
Now, some reasoning;
@MrThing:
The plus science in Camaraderies is meant to be a 'work together for a better tommorow' ideal, the plus happiness is meant to be the wealthy elite being happy, which is why I think it will get a +1 unhappy everywhere else to counterbalance this.
@lumpthing:
Liberalism is the idea of free rights for all, even when sometimes contrary to the wills of the state (freedom to gather and protest, stuff like that. Freedom to criticize the governemnt) and in general simply having rights that other civic types deny access to.
Professional Labor is the idea of the citizens choosing what they do, and turning that job into a career. In all of the other civics the choice largely does not exist, in Slavery its obvious, in Serfdom citizens are tied to the land as farmers and do other jobs when their lord requires it of them, Under Guilds their choices are largely dictated by caste and their master's approval (this is an apprenticeship system) and in Socialism their job is largely decided based on the needs of the Country. Perhaps never mind that last part, as I am unsure.
@SadoMacho:
Guilds is meant to be hte Hanzen cities of Europe, I think. I don't remember specific examples of the cities I am basing it off of.
the -20% production on professional labor is meant to symbolize the shift from production based economy to a finance based economy.
The closed economy giving +1 hammers with farms would be terribly useful for civs like Egypt, so that sounds good.
The Gestapo name was merely me thinking the word sounded cool. Secret Police sounds good to however, so I think I'll go with that. And I think it needs to be in because it is possible to remove religions. Its difficult, but possible. I'll have to look t the diplomacy penalties to make it so if you do this non atheist states will hate you.
+ happy with amphitheater sounds good.
@Many:
I gave Socialism a -50% gp growth because in my eyes it encourages mediocrity with welfare plans (this is also what people I have known who have lived in socialist countries have said. If I'm wrong please tell me why. THis also balances out with the +specialists. <- That is the poor being raised up, the -50% gp is the rich being pulled down.
Camaraderie is meant to be the ideal of working together, everyone egual, whereas the Socialism civic is meant to be the practical application of such an ideal to labor and the workforce. This is largely the difference between Communist and Marxist communities. A Marxist society would have Socialism and Camaraderie, whereas a Communist society would have Socialsim and Nationalism.
On the Unity Civics:
Commonwealth is meant to be the union of trading Empire, similar to what I have seen to be Classical Greece and Carthage, as well as others. The cities have individual control over much of the land, but are unified. Sovereign nations is the recognition not only of one's own countries as self governing units, but also foreign claims to self dominance.
The difference between Colonialism and Imperialism is conquer versus found, and also Far Flung versus Close knit. Imperialism creates Empires like the Roman Empire, whereas colonialism creates Empires like the British Empire. Rather, Imperialism focuses on conquering for land and integrating the conquests as part of the empire, Colonialism focuses on Conquering for resources to support a single, often times very small homeland's desires and needs.
i appologize for how convaluted this post is, I was writing pretty much every section individualy and at the same time.
I figure if I can find the tag that enables adding bonuses to specific improvements I should be able to reverse engineer it for civics, just with a lot more options because there are also more yields.
Until I figure that out however I'm going to be only partly involved in the discussion, as I want to focus on finding and implementing this code. As such I'm going to generally leave SadoMacho in charge of the discussion, though I have a few points first;
For now however, these are the civics i am looking at;
(Some Notes) I want to keep Socialism in the labor option, as I feel it is more a form of labor than an ideology. That's what Camaraderie is supposed to be, plus I don't think 'Industrial Revolution' is a good term for a civic, and it seems very close to 'Professional Labor', which I'm going to change to 'Professional Workforce'. I'm unsure about the governmental reforms you've proposed, but I also like them, and I think they are more well thought out than mine, so I intend to use them until someone proposes something better.
On the socialism idea, I just had an idea i can't really describe, which has conflicted me on the issue, so I am not sure, please make your cases one way or another to help me out.
*** Denotes civics being actively discussed
Spoiler civics :
Now, some reasoning;
@MrThing:
The plus science in Camaraderies is meant to be a 'work together for a better tommorow' ideal, the plus happiness is meant to be the wealthy elite being happy, which is why I think it will get a +1 unhappy everywhere else to counterbalance this.
@lumpthing:
Liberalism is the idea of free rights for all, even when sometimes contrary to the wills of the state (freedom to gather and protest, stuff like that. Freedom to criticize the governemnt) and in general simply having rights that other civic types deny access to.
Professional Labor is the idea of the citizens choosing what they do, and turning that job into a career. In all of the other civics the choice largely does not exist, in Slavery its obvious, in Serfdom citizens are tied to the land as farmers and do other jobs when their lord requires it of them, Under Guilds their choices are largely dictated by caste and their master's approval (this is an apprenticeship system) and in Socialism their job is largely decided based on the needs of the Country. Perhaps never mind that last part, as I am unsure.
@SadoMacho:
Guilds is meant to be hte Hanzen cities of Europe, I think. I don't remember specific examples of the cities I am basing it off of.
the -20% production on professional labor is meant to symbolize the shift from production based economy to a finance based economy.
The closed economy giving +1 hammers with farms would be terribly useful for civs like Egypt, so that sounds good.
The Gestapo name was merely me thinking the word sounded cool. Secret Police sounds good to however, so I think I'll go with that. And I think it needs to be in because it is possible to remove religions. Its difficult, but possible. I'll have to look t the diplomacy penalties to make it so if you do this non atheist states will hate you.
+ happy with amphitheater sounds good.
@Many:
I gave Socialism a -50% gp growth because in my eyes it encourages mediocrity with welfare plans (this is also what people I have known who have lived in socialist countries have said. If I'm wrong please tell me why. THis also balances out with the +specialists. <- That is the poor being raised up, the -50% gp is the rich being pulled down.
Camaraderie is meant to be the ideal of working together, everyone egual, whereas the Socialism civic is meant to be the practical application of such an ideal to labor and the workforce. This is largely the difference between Communist and Marxist communities. A Marxist society would have Socialism and Camaraderie, whereas a Communist society would have Socialsim and Nationalism.
On the Unity Civics:
Commonwealth is meant to be the union of trading Empire, similar to what I have seen to be Classical Greece and Carthage, as well as others. The cities have individual control over much of the land, but are unified. Sovereign nations is the recognition not only of one's own countries as self governing units, but also foreign claims to self dominance.
The difference between Colonialism and Imperialism is conquer versus found, and also Far Flung versus Close knit. Imperialism creates Empires like the Roman Empire, whereas colonialism creates Empires like the British Empire. Rather, Imperialism focuses on conquering for land and integrating the conquests as part of the empire, Colonialism focuses on Conquering for resources to support a single, often times very small homeland's desires and needs.
i appologize for how convaluted this post is, I was writing pretty much every section individualy and at the same time.
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
Look at post #93 by Vishaing, in the spoiler you see his plans and ideas. That's the basis for the discission, please give your comments on these ideas.
Vishaing is trying to find out if he can code a more dynamic system wherein civics can change with techs.
Vishaing is trying to find out if he can code a more dynamic system wherein civics can change with techs.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
...? How does that have any bearing on what I said? I asked that we switch to a more concise conversation, as the current one is spread to the winds with masses of ideas being flung around.
I'd like to focus on one set of civics, like Labor, and discuss them until they are settled, then move on to the next set.
I'd like to focus on one set of civics, like Labor, and discuss them until they are settled, then move on to the next set.
Agreed with Aeon. Lets start with Government and just go down the line.
current proposal for government civics:
Despotism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:
Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low)
+100% commerce and hammers in capital
Hereditary Rule: (tech: monarchy upkeep: low)
+1 happiness per military unit in a city
Absolute Monarchy: (tech: Divine Right, Upkeep: middle)
+100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2 from palace, barracks give +1XP extra
Totalitarianism: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle)
+20% mil. production, +2 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail, - 20% War Weariness with Broadcast Tower (also Propaganda)
Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it), Happiness Penalty for civs without
Lets make each category balanced, and then balance the whole. That should reap the largest rewards and keep the discussion focused. (I too was getting a little Lost)
current proposal for government civics:
Despotism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:
Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low)
+100% commerce and hammers in capital
Hereditary Rule: (tech: monarchy upkeep: low)
+1 happiness per military unit in a city
Absolute Monarchy: (tech: Divine Right, Upkeep: middle)
+100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2 from palace, barracks give +1XP extra
Totalitarianism: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle)
+20% mil. production, +2 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail, - 20% War Weariness with Broadcast Tower (also Propaganda)
Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it), Happiness Penalty for civs without
Lets make each category balanced, and then balance the whole. That should reap the largest rewards and keep the discussion focused. (I too was getting a little Lost)
question: so absolute monarchy only gets +100% gold not commerce? who would get that? ^^
why enhance broadcast towers twice with happiness? just giving them one bonus would be better i think
seems a little bit underpowered to me
Hitti-Litti
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2006
- Messages
- 3,767
Absolute Monarchy deserves 100% money, the ultimate ruler does what he/she wants!
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
100% commerce would be better (that's what I ment, BTW)
1 for broadcasttower would be better, we don't want people to be to happy with Totalitarianism
Representation underpowered? The Happiness Penalty for civs without makes it stronger, and commpaired with the current democraty, it is quite a strong civic, but if you would like to add something, we are open for ideas?
@Vishaing : I saw in the thread by Blasphemous that Rhye intends to give as stability factor to the civics for revolutions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=196032). Does this mean that Rhye does not intend to use a new civc system?
1
for broadcasttower would be better, we don't want people to be to happy with TotalitarianismRepresentation underpowered? The Happiness Penalty for civs without makes it stronger, and commpaired with the current democraty, it is quite a strong civic, but if you would like to add something, we are open for ideas?
@Vishaing : I saw in the thread by Blasphemous that Rhye intends to give as stability factor to the civics for revolutions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=196032). Does this mean that Rhye does not intend to use a new civc system?
