RFCEurope 1.1+

[AbsintheRed]

Hey! Welcome to CFC
Both civs will definitely be included in 2.0
I'm not yet sure about the amount of civs we should add to 1.2, but they have a decent chance
As you probably saw in the previous posts, they are in the top 8 candidates

Maybe I should make a poll about these civs
But it probably has no point, I have no doubt that at least 80-90% would vote yes to both Prussia and Scotland
Still, that's not the only thing we have to take into accont when deciding the number of new civs

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Prussia is just so awesome in RFCE++.

The combination of its UU, UB, UP, and unique starting units makes it the only civ who starts as a small city state with a virtually nonexistent Stability Map, but ends up being the greatest empire in all Europe. As Themistocles put it, "to raise a small and inconsiderable city to glory and greatness". That for me is the essence of this game of Civ.

And it means you can play as Frederick the Great. Who doesn't want to play as Frederick the Great?

 

[ezzlar]

I have said it before, I would rather have a great mod than a mod that can be run on a Pentium 90 Mhz.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I have said it before, I would rather have a great mod than a mod that can be run on a Pentium 90 Mhz.

Then maybe we should leave the civs in 1.x the way 3Miro wanted it, and focus on RFCE 2.0
We can never have all the civs I want to see in a "great" RFCE (all from ++ and maybe a couple more), not with this version. But we can have them all in 2.0
I won't have the complete civ list feel even if I add all these 8 civs here...

 

[AbsintheRed]

As you can clearly see, I didn't make my mind about the new civs yet
Can we have a little more suggestion about them? Preferably detailed ones
I would love to see a full concept for them before deciding what to do
I made a new thread for this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=485615

 

[gps]

3. Prussia
- Offers some counterbalance to Germany, in the same way Burgundy is to France

Hmmm, to be honest, it feels a bit surreal to me (as a German) to put in Prussia as a "counterbalance" to Germany. In history Prussia and its ruling dynasty, the Hohenzollern (which originate from what today is Baden-Württemberg and from 1871 on also were German emperors) always were a part of German culture - which is the essence of what civilizaions in the Civ series represent. There never was a conflict or confrontation Prussia vs. Germany like there was with France and Burgundy or the way Germany and Austria went separate ways. So to me this sounds a bit like putting in Alaska to form a counterbalance to the US in North America. I know the HRE with all it's small kindoms and their internal struggle is a nightmare to put into a Civ game. But making Germany and Prussia separate countries for me from a historical and cultural point of view feels totally wrong and would turn the game into something, that never really happened in RL. Actually as far as my knowledge goes, Prussia and people like Bismarck where the driving forces behind German nationalism and the idea of creating a German nation.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Hmmm, to be honest, it feels a bit surreal to me (as a German) to put in Prussia as a "counterbalance" to Germany. In history Prussia and its ruling dynasty, the Hohenzollern (which originate from what today is Baden-Württemberg and from 1871 on also were German emperors) always were a part of German culture - which is the essence of what civilizaions in the Civ series represent. There never was a conflict or confrontation Prussia vs. Germany like there was with France and Burgundy or the way Germany and Austria went separate ways. So to me this sounds a bit like putting in Alaska to form a counterbalance to the US in North America. I know the HRE with all it's small kindoms and their internal struggle is a nightmare to put into a Civ game. But making Germany and Prussia separate countries for me from a historical and cultural point of view feels totally wrong and would turn the game into something, that never really happened in RL. Actually as far as my knowledge goes, Prussia and people like Bismarck where the driving forces behind German nationalism and the idea of creating a German nation.

Yeah, I agree with everything you said here. Prussia is the predecessor of Germany, at least for the modern state
Keep in mind though, the current Germany in the mod represents the HRE
We can make this even more obvious with the UHVs, if Prussia really is included

 

[AbsintheRed]

I guess you want to avoid messages like "Prussia declared war on Germany"
I can totally understand that, but there is simply no perfect solution until we find a better way to represent the small states in the HRE

Actually there were/are plans for that too, based on RFCE++'s HRE system and minor states... I'm not yet sure how far will it get though
This is from my last PM with Morholt:

I had this idea to remove all but one independent civ, and have it display different flag and colour depending on the province. Also the AI would be redone to be a lot simpler and tend to stay within its own province. Finally each player would have a war/peace relationship with each of the subcivs. So there would be one umbrella independent civ split into 150 or so subcivs.

The benefits of this are that they can each have a regional flag, which might be more interesting, and I believe it should be possible to code in a way that is faster than what we have now since there is only one actual civ and each unit really only needs to be aware of its own province and a few more tiles. It's also not too difficult to allow these microcivs to vote in the HRE which seems to be what people want.

Unfortunately he disappeared not long after this, and I didn't start any real work on this yet

 

[gps]

I guess you want to avoid messages like "Prussia declared war on Germany"
I can totally understand that, but there is simply no perfect solution until we find a better way to represent the small states in the HRE

Yes, I see the point and the intention - and I've run this issue a bit through my mind and did a bit of research. I think somewhere above also the "Deutschordenstaat", the Teutonic Order State came up. And this is an idea I like much better. The Order State in history was much more separated and independend from the Empire, there's less territorial overleap, the Baltic territories make a bit more sense here - and why not have a what-if-scenario with the Order State lasting longer than 1525? I also like the connection it had with the Hanse and it's flair (bzw. nice touch to have the Hanse as a corporation in the mod). And I think it would be less surreal to have a "bunch of crusaders" be at war with the German Empire than Prussia. I just would keep it the Order State and not turn it into Prussia in the late game.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

How is it any different from Burgundy being separate from France? Or Novgorod as separate from Kievan Rus? Or Egypt as separate from Arabia? Shall we remove those civs or prevent their representations as well?

Despite this game being called "Civilization", in many of these mods we play as polities instead of civilizations because the mods have more focused timescales and geographies. Sword of Islam (3 Muslim Egyptian dynasties), RFC Asia (6 Han Chinese dynasties), and RFC Classical World (many Hellenic successor states) have much more pronounced cases than RFC Europe. Even DoC, whose scale covers all of human history, represents HRE and Prussia as separate civs.

Last but not least, if you're going with that argument, the majority of civs in this mod are part of the European Civilization, or Western Civilization. They all claim to be the heirs of the Roman Empire and Caesar. Why not represent them all as a single big civ? That would be so much fun to play, wouldn't it?

 

[Yudishtira]

Yes, I see the point and the intention - and I've run this issue a bit through my mind and did a bit of research. I think somewhere above also the "Deutschordenstaat", the Teutonic Order State came up. And this is an idea I like much better. The Order State in history was much more separated and independend from the Empire, there's less territorial overleap, the Baltic territories make a bit more sense here - and why not have a what-if-scenario with the Order State lasting longer than 1525? I also like the connection it had with the Hanse and it's flair (bzw. nice touch to have the Hanse as a corporation in the mod). And I think it would be less surreal to have a "bunch of crusaders" be at war with the German Empire than Prussia. I just would keep it the Order State and not turn it into Prussia in the late game.

Prussia is clearly the successor to the "Deutschordenstaat" - ie. the tail wagging the dog. And the newly-united Germany submitted (briefly) to Prussian hegemony precisely because the alternative would have been another Napoleonic or Thirty Years' War. Ie. precisely Prussia declaring war on (the as-yet unborn) 'Germany'.

"Prussia is a quintessential part of Germany, living in peace and harmony with its brother states" is a winners' version of history originated during the half-century of Prussian dominance. Compare and contrast with the millennium or so of Germany's (albeit disunified) political/cultural/linguistic existence. To which Prussia is a misfit/outsider-looking-in at best, and a wildman barbarian nuisance at worst.

I've got nothing against Prussia, but I don't like to see propagandist 'historians' not being able to see the wood due to the tree they themselves have planted.

 

[gps]

Prussia is clearly the successor to the "Deutschordenstaat" - ie. the tail wagging the dog.

If I remember correctly the Teutonic Order State was broken into pieces and a small part of it ended under Polish/Prussian rule. And what later became the kingdom of Prussia consists of Prussia and Brandenburg*). The latter had hardly anything to do with the Teutonic order. So from my humble point of view it does not really make sense to make the Kingdom of Prussia the legal successor of the Teutonic order state...

And the newly-united Germany submitted (briefly) to Prussian hegemony precisely because the alternative would have been another Napoleonic or Thirty Years' War. Ie. precisely Prussia declaring war on (the as-yet unborn) 'Germany'.

Prussia was as much part of the HRE as it was part of the German Confederation as it was part of the German Empire. And it was not just a part, it was one of the biggest and most important parts. I don't see any sense in making it a separate entitiy. Feels completely wrong.
And I am not willing to continue the discussion on the level of "propagandist 'historians'"...

*) with Brandenburg actually beeing the core of the Hohenzollern reign. And both Brandenburg and Hohenzollern are as German as can be. The only reason why the realm of Brandburg/Prussia was later only called Kingdom of Prussia was because Prussia was a kingdom while Brandenburg was only a duchy. So to actually become a king they had to do some false labeling here...

 

[merijn_v1]

No matter if it's a successor or not, if it's going to be included, Teutonic Order and Prussia will be one civ. Just because that is the best option gameplaywise.

 

[Willi_Tell]

Just wanted to say, that I really like this mod!
Thank you for your magnificent work!

And it was not just a part, it was one of the biggest and most important parts. I don't see any sense in making it a separate entitiy. Feels completely wrong.

Even as a Swiss, I completely agree...

No matter if it's a successor or not, if it's going to be included, Teutonic Order and Prussia will be one civ. Just because that is the best option gameplaywise.

Hmm, imagine if this would be an American Scenario and somebody would tell you "No matter if it's a successor or not, if it's going to be included, Iroquois and USA will be one civ - because of gameplay".
Could you accept?

RFC is otherwise very accurate (what I really appreciate!) and such a "solution" for Teutonic Order and Prussia just doesn't feel right...

 

[merijn_v1]

Hmm, imagine if this would be an American Scenario and somebody would tell you "No matter if it's a successor or not, if it's going to be included, Iroquois and USA will be one civ - because of gameplay".
Could you accept?

RFC is otherwise very accurate (what I really appreciate!) and such a "solution" for Teutonic Order and Prussia just doesn't feel right...

Ofcourse I wouldn't accept that. But I hope you see that is a different case. In the case of TO-Prussia, they relatively close after eachother and controlled the same area. And if you look at the wikipedia (I agree, it's not the most reliable source), they say that the history of Prussia starts with the TO.
In the case of Iroquois-USA, they didn't came close after eachother and they didn't control the same area. At least not at the start of the USA. You can easily have both without any gamechanging consequences. But you can't with the TO-Prussia. TO-Prussia are very much connected to eachother, while Iroquois-USA aren't that much.

And I'm not saying that it has to be that way by definition. It would be great if both could be represented. But due to game mechanics etc., that's not the best solution IMO.

And in RFC, there are more civs that start as one civ and later represent an other civ.

 

[gps]

And if you look at the wikipedia (I agree, it's not the most reliable source), they say that the history of Prussia starts with the TO.

Well, even if you just take Wikipedia as a source - just go in and check the following entries:

1. State of the Teutonic Order:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order_State
3rd paragraph: "Following its defeat in the Battle of Grunwald..."
plus a bit below the Diagram: History of Brandenburg and Prussia


2. Brandenburg-Prussia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg-Prussia
just the introduction


3. Kingdom of Prussia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Prussia
also just the introduction


This should make it clear that Prussia as a territory and the Kingdom of (Brandenburg-)Prussia are not exactly the same. Which brings me back to my suggestion of adding the Teutonic Order State but not turning it into the (Kingdom of) Prussia after 1525. If the Teutonic order is destroyed and its territory divided, then this is exactly what actually happened in RL - and if it survives, good for them. Gameplaywise this should be the same situation you want to achieve - but you don't have to rip Brandenburg-Prussia from the German Empire, where it belongs.

 

[Spirictum]

If the idea of making lots of smaller states to represent the HRE gets incorporated, I think the strange "Germany" of 858AD will be intended to fall and give space to those states. If this happens, then Germany could respawn later as Prussia instead of the Order.

But IMO respawning isn't a successful way of representing other civs. The case of Cordoba is the only, and it's a good, example: It isn't hard to make Cordoba live. Actually, if you already played RFCE a lot you'll notice that if you intend to keep playing after the Reconquista, you must stop it at all costs. You can't let Spain have the whole peninsula, or at least its huge part of it. I always befriend Cordoba (even if they hate me, and keep hating me after I gift gold, techs and even join the war with them) to make sure it doesn't fall (no matter who I am, as long as I'm not Spain or an early winner like the Norse or Kiev). Sometimes Cordoba do this on its own (not hard to see this too). The result is that Tunisia never spawns, and then Africa remains empty for the whole game.

I think the case with Germany will be different (or it should be coded to be different). If AI Germany always fall it can respawn as Prussia.

But I think the best solution is to get rid of Germany. I know this may take several posts and threads to be put in good form, but the HRE should be the one to appear at this time. And I know this idea will fall better to RFCE 2.0.

Without Germany, there could be 1 ([2.0] or more) full playable German State (Swabia? Saxony?) and the smaller ones to form the HRE. There is a topic about the HRE and ideas related to it, we could revive it and start this move to make 2.0. Bigger Map and More Civs, nothing better then this combo.

 

[Willi_Tell]

As I am quite familiar in history, I think the most accurate way - and also the best in terms of RFCEurope gameplay - would be to let the TO collapsing either around 1410 (Battle of Tannenberg) or 1466 (Treaty of Thorn)


Might it be an elegant solution to get the Prussians starting with to splitted stacks (instead of a single one)? One stack in Brandenburg, the other one in East Prussia...?
This would ensure that the Prussians will found/conquer Berlin and also Königsberg. In addition, flips for these two cities (if already founded) to Prussia may be appropriate.


Edit: Crosspost with spirictum (a good statement as well...)

 

[AbsintheRed]

As I am quite familiar in history, I think the most accurate way - and also the best in terms of RFCEurope gameplay - would be to let the TO collapsing either around 1410 (Battle of Tannenberg) or 1466 (Treaty of Thorn)

Actually there are conditional spawn in SoI
Civ 2 only spawns if Civ 1 wasn't succesfull enough and collapsed around a specific date

 

[Yudishtira]

Prussia was as much part of the HRE as it was part of the German Confederation as it was part of the German Empire. And it was not just a part, it was one of the biggest and most important parts. I don't see any sense in making it a separate entitiy. Feels completely wrong.
And I am not willing to continue the discussion on the level of "propagandist 'historians'"...

*) with Brandenburg actually beeing the core of the Hohenzollern reign. And both Brandenburg and Hohenzollern are as German as can be. The only reason why the realm of Brandburg/Prussia was later only called Kingdom of Prussia was because Prussia was a kingdom while Brandenburg was only a duchy. So to actually become a king they had to do some false labeling here...

You probably know that the Hohenzollern were from Swabia, on the opposite side of the country. It's a huge stretch to suggest some primordial link between them and Prussia. Similarly, Brandenburg is not Prussia.

Prior to Germany's unification, there was a very real prospect of war between the 'states'. Unification was precisely achieved by the state that felt militarily dominant bullying all the others into line. Nothing wrong with that. Just making the point that war between Prussia and the rest of 'Germany' is far from surreal, and (arguably) only a whisker off true history.

In fact, I would have to have a good look at the Thirty Years' and Napoleonic Wars, before stating categorically that it never happened.