Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Rhye, May 4, 2008.
I can help here. A push refers to a tied result, such as both die being the same.
The newbies did like it we had to start again after my little sister pulled two plagues in a row and lost both of her swordsmen while exploring on the first turn. A thought here. Remove the plagues and instead of having the option to take minor civilizations over always make them barbarians that way there is still fighting or bad stuff like plagues but there is a fighting chance. The newbies also wanted a first benefit and a wonder for every tech. with five people and only ten wonders it only leaves two wonders per civilization and as we plan to play six civilizations next weekend more are needed.
Compared to the original I loved the new rules so much in fact that I am planing on building on your rule set to beta our own house rules. I'll keep you informed. The stability is awesome it just seems to be an advanced feature for when I'm playing with CivFanatics not casual players so I plan to work on a simpler more streamlined set for those occasions
It took about 1.5 hours to reach the modern era (if defined by electricity and industrialization) but we used the technology chart as or gates not and gates. And we traded heavily tech wise. The entire game took about 3 hours as we ignored the game ends after the last tech rule and continued to nuke and capture any capital silly enough to make the spaceship but it was a lot of fun.
ok, so if you skipped 5-6 techs from the left branches, it means that with correct AND gates you could have reached industrial/modern by 3 hours. That's pretty good. I remember that the tree in the original rules was non-existant, since nobody had money to spend in research, and there were a ton of techs. Combined with a slow pace, i remember myself still being in ancient after 4 hours.
I never had that situation. Removing plagues might be good for gameplay. Or possibly a rule change. Like, it could kill 1 unit in each city adjacent to the discovered territory.
Stability plays an important role, as governments, religions and expansion are based on it. Trust me, everything is linked to it, but it's not complicated at all. I think it's fun to see other players sink down in the risky instability levels, and come back after consolidation (and you can push them down by razing their cities). I suggest you to try the game with it next time, and feel free to remove the plagues, for now, or adopt the change I suggested.
1 more question: did you use the random map?
No we did not use the random map.We used the map that came with the game with five people we used the entire map. Probably to much really. Though with six it will probably work out just right.
posted a new Beta, that contains a few fixes
This is way cool! Probably the best-looking set of rules I've seen for this game.
I have a few questions about it after reading through the rules and tables.
When you use your nation's unique power card, that counts as your action for the turn, right?
The action cards are unnecessary, aren't they? Players can just look at the reference sheet and decide what action to do each turn?
Can aircraft end their movement anywhere, or only with a friendly unit or city, or only in a friendly city? The Fast-play rules had it so aircraft could end their turn with any friendly unit or settlement (fleets were assumed to have carriers). The fast-play rules also said you could, instead of normal movement, relocate a plane to any friendly settlement (I thought it was a cool option).
During a recruitment action, can I build 2 land units in a city and a fleet in every water space adjacent to the city space? Is this the max number of units you can build at a city in a single action?
When do you trade? Whenever you want? I assume that when you trade a technology with someone, you don't lose it, they just get it.
Thanks for making this mod. It looks great! The combat system is a lot more like the PC game than the silly rock-paper-scisors one they had before. The "actions" mechanism is a really great idea and seems like it would add some more strategic decisions to the game.
i play talisman, axis and allies, Magic: the gathering.... and i have no printer.
sounds fun though
1-if there's a specific card for the action (like the Greek one), yes
2-yes but they're useful to randomise the order every turn
3-when something isn't stated, I meant that it's the same as the normal rules. In this case, ending the movement in a place with a friendly settlment/unit/battleship. What's the difference with fast-play rules?
4-in a city, 2 units and 1 fleet; in a village: 1 unit and 1 fleet. If you're Rome, no limits
5-anytime you like, there's no specific trade phase
Thanks for the responses. I know someone who wants to play this with me, so I should get to try it out soon.
I just looked them up again, and the fast-play movement rules are a bit strange; you can either move a plane one space with an army/fleet or you can relocate a plane to any friendly space.
The one thing I liked about the fast-play rules is that roads and railroads are kind of implemented.
One more question. Should "Atheism" be renamed "Tribalism" or "Paganism"?
I don't think any ancient civilizations we know of were really "atheist" cultures.
I made a post about your mod on BoardGameGeek to let people know about it.
Thanks again for all the work you put into this! Once I play a game of it, I'll let you know how it went!
aah, thanks. I forgot to do that.
Make sure you report your game experience so that I can fix anything broken or unclear
BGG post has been noted. And I'm trying a 2-player session later today. Will keep you posted.
Gameplay report 4-player game
With 2 players we decided to play 2 civs each for variation, using the Boardgame map (old world only, including isles). Total time was about 2 afternoons until the end of the tech tree plus Spaceship launched (with no possibility of taking the Spaceship capital we decided to call it a day).
We selected civs by pulling 3 civ cards blind, discarding one and starting in historical locations. This left us with Greece and Mongols on one team and Vikings and Persia on the other (Rome and Aztec being discarded).
Gameplay was quite balanced, with any leading civ (either tech- or unitwise) being quickly caught up by the others.
The Greeks made ofcourse use of their Academy card to get an early tech lead, but this was made good by research and trading between the other civs. The Vikings had an early disadvantage, as they started on the Scandinavian island, but they soon made that good by expanding overseas and exploring nearly all of Africa. The Persians and Mongols basically discovered most of the remaining areas, the Mongols beating the Vikings by one turn to Australia, were the Persians had already landed.
The tech tree was treated as intended (so no Machineguns in turn 2)* and although the Mongols discovered Space Flight first, it was the Vikings who built it; a result of their aggressive expansion. They took one city from the Greeks, who retaliated by eliminating the Viking fleet, but in the end they were able to rebuilt it and a kind of territorial stand-off lasted til the end of the game. (The Mongols lost one city to revolt, which they were unable to retake as they had already discovered Electricity, causing a Machinegun to be added to the revolting city.)
*We did notice a discrepancy in the Machineguns/Bettleships prequisites on the tech tree and the cards, which caused a bit of a mix up at some point.
Special thanks to my co-player Zippadeedoodah, who was kind enough to print out reference sheets and all the cards!
[Also published on BoardgameGeek]
JEELEN and I played a first game with 4 Civs, each of us taking control of two. Both of us prefer to play on a 'historic' map, so I did not need to print all of the extra random map tiles (and saved a lot of printer ink that way). We used Sid's original map, playing on the Old World, including Africa and Australia. For the same reason we decided that each empire would start in its 'historical' starting position. To ensure a little bit of decision-making, we each were given 3 empire cards, and had to discard one. Since I received the Aztecs, I had to discard that empire, since it was 'off the map'. Lesson learned: next time I will remove the New World empires before starting the game.
I took control of the Persians (Caspia) and Vikings (Scandinavia), JEELEN took control of the Greeks (Danube) and Mongols (Baykal). Although Rhye included images for capitals in his package, I decided to use the visually nicer (3D) capital cities from History of the World (AH version).
Initially I felt rather restricted, with my Vikings on the Scandinavian island without a boat - although they start with Trade so they can buy a boat. But it takes 2 extra turns: one turn to generate income, and one turn to actually build the boat. So I tried to compensate by buying my first boat and moving a unit to Britania (alas, a desert), then moving swiftly on to start exploring and later colonizing the African continent, which went very well.
The Greeks were always close by, but lacked a boat in the first turns, so they had to 'walk around' the Mediterranean before meeting the Vikings in northern Africa. And so the early Viking disadvantages (started on an island, first territory discovered was a desert) quickly turned to their advantage as they grabbed most of Africa for themselves - the Greeks retaining a foothold in the northeast. Even after the Greeks destroyed ALL of the Viking fleets, the Viking territories both in Scandinavia and in Africa were relatively well-defended, and the Viking fleets were later completely rebuilt.
The Persians and Mongols in the meantime explored all of Asia, and then came to a bit of a standoff. Both subsequently started to build fleets and explore the islands off the Asian coast and Australia, where the Mongols gained control of a resource, and the Persians eventually founded another city. The Mongols were the only empire to actually lose a city to a revolt. Since this was late in the game, the newly independent city gained a highly effective machinegunner as defender, and so remained independent for the rest of the game.
Four minor empires arose during the exploring phase, most of these on islands, as luck would have it. However, no one really wanted to attempt to subjugate one, because of the severe stability penalty (-2 levels) and because there was generally sufficient room to build cities and expand elsewhere. This leads me to think that the impetus for conquest may be too small. Perhaps a monetary reward, or an extra free unit, should be added to the spoils of conquering a minor empire.
While we were all exploring, expanding and building new cities, we were all the time cashing in, buying and upgrading units, gaining new technologies and building Wonders. Each empire was trying to keep up with the 3 others in all of these areas, some more successfully than others. Technologies, once discovered, spread like wildfire through trade with 'friendly' neighbouring empires. (In our game this meant that if one of our own two empires gained a technology, the other gained it as well.)
In the end, although the Mongols gained the Space Flight technology first, it was the Vikings who within 2 turns used their large empire (2 villages, the maximum of 8 cities, and a highly lucrative monopoly on horses) to generate enough money to actually build the Spaceship. Since the Viking capital was out of reach for the Mongol and Greek empires, this effectively finished the game. In hindsight, losing a city to a revolt in the second half of the game might have cost the Mongols the final victory.
We spent an enjoyable 2 afternoons on this game for an estimated total of somewhere between 6 and 8 hours. (We were not really keeping track of time, and we had a lot of breaks.) Not bad for a first game, and I'm sure subsequent games will go faster now that we are aware of all the mechanics and possibilities.
[Also published on BoardgameGeek]
This variant is really very well-balanced as well as fun to play. It is an excellent compressed version of the Civ concept, so kudos to Mr Rhye for making it available to the rest of us. It shows that he has a good grasp of the game's essentials, and it also shows that his adeptness at creating mods for the different PC versions actually carries over into the more physical realm of the boardgame.
There are some minor quibbles as well as some omissions, and there may certainly be room for further improvement. The most obvious is a streamlined set of rules or at least a brief summary, which I therefore created for myself. I will report these items next, for Mr Rhye's benefit. The variant itself, however, is eminently playable.
The available governments and religions are a very nice addition. It forces the players to contemplate if the time is right to switch their government, for instance from Monarchy to Republic, which gives double cash for each city or village. Players must weigh the advantages of another government or religion against the action they 'lose' to have a Revolution.
Because of the actions mechanism, players are constantly having to decide whether to cash in this turn, because they need to add new units or upgrade existing units or villages; or for instance to go for a new technology first. Or perhaps to have a revolution, because a new religion can add a defence or attack die for each battle, and certain governments result in a dramatic increase in income. There is even the possibility of a fascist or communist state, which when founded will immediately destabilize all monarchies and republics. The stability principle works really well, too, keeping all the players on their toes, because no one wants to risk a revolt or a civil war. Everyone may need to spend an action now and then to restore stability.
There is the danger for a change of pace halfway through the game, from lots of movement to almost no movement on the board whatsoever. Once all the territories are explored (and subsequently mostly settled), everyone can dig in, and the game can swiftly move from Action card to Action card. Although this speeds up the game considerably, it also makes the second stage of the game a little more repetitive. Different unit statistics might remedy this, but that is of course subject to subsequent testing.
The trade mechanism also speeds up the spread of new technologies, since you can trade anything except Wonders. This in turn also speeds up the game - since one of the victory conditions is that the game ends once all technologies are discovered. (Well, actually the game ends 5 turns later, but by that time you will already know who will win.)
The complete absence of city micromanagement is a true blessing for this variant. Gone are the days of painstakingly trying to calculate the income for each of your separate cities each turn. Rhye's simple, but elegant income system simply works, and works very well. I also did not miss the age divisions, which are completely absent in this variant.
All in all, this is truly a great, streamlined variant that breathes much needed new life into an otherwise rather unplayable and extremely lengthy game (with a lot of bookkeeping) that was collecting dust in my house. There are some blanks that are not made clear by the author, which I will report next. I filled those in myself before we first started to play. However, all of the additions combine well, and really make for a shorter, tenser and much more FUN gaming experience.
Thanks, Mr Rhye!
The following is a collection of things we encountered while playing our first game. It contains minor bugs to be fixed, omissions, and some possible suggestions for improvement of this great variant for the boardgame.
Bugs to be fixed
The top-most 'religion', with which all the empires start, is Atheism. Atheism, however, is not a religion. As someone else already mentioned, I would much prefer either Paganism or Tribalism as an alternative name.
The prerequisite technology for Galley is Sailing, but should be Trade.
The prerequisite technology for Cannon is Metallurgy, but should be Gunpowder according to the Technology chart and Technology cards.
The prerequisite technology for Cavalry is Metallurgy, but should be Rifling according to the Technology chart and Technology cards. (There are no Sailing or Metallurgy technologies.)
The units' prerequisite technologies match those on the Technology chart, but while playing we found out that there is actually still a mismatch with two of the later Technology cards. According to the Units table and the Technology chart, Tank and Artillery require Electricity, and Machinegunner and Battleship require Industrialization. However, on the technology cards themselves, Electricity actually allows Tank and Battleship, and Industrialization allows Machinegunner and Artillery. Which is right? We went for the Technology chart and Units table combination.
The Colossus wonder card also has Sailing as prerequisite technology, but this should be Trade. I corrected this on my version of the card. (There is no Sailing technology.)
ALL of the Industrialization cards have a green '1st time' effect listed. This should of course be restricted to only the first of the five cards. (Only the first should get the free city upgrade.)
ALL of the Flight cards have a green '1st time' effect listed. This should of course be restricted to only the first of the five cards. (You cannot reveal the whole map five times...)
Buildings and Wonders table
The prerequisite technology for The Colossus is Sailing, but should be Trade.
It is unclear when 2 empires can trade, when using the historical setup. The readme mentions that you can trade anything, and that 2 empires need to be 'in sight' of each other, but this only goes for random maps. In the original Sid's Civ, it depended both on distance and on the age your empire is in. Since ages are not present in RFC, this latter condition is no longer valid. We therefore implemented a rule that Civs can trade as soon as they have a unit, city or colony in a territory adjacent to another empire's territory containing their unit, city or colony. We also decided that if 2 Civs 'lose touch' because of this rule, they can no longer trade. All this seemed to work well enough.
Suggestions for improvement
What I missed on this handy chart is helpful icons for the units, religions and goverment types allowed. So I went ahead and added them myself on my version.
The tables graphic for the Civs, Units, Buildings and Wonders, etc. was VERY small. So I went ahead and enlarged them: Units, Buildings and Wonders on one A4 page; Civs etc on another (actually, the back side).
A glaring omission on these otherwise handsome cards is the description that goes with each action. Instead of having to look up the list of actions each time (and actions happen OFTEN), I adapted the action cards to include the summarized/itemized description. This prevents a lot of delaying manual searches during Action time.
Although it does not say so anywhere, we decided that the players choose their actions in secret, to enhance the surprise effect of the actions. This seemed to work quite well.
None of the 4 arising minor empires were ever conquered. Although they are defenceless, since it costs the conqueror 2 stability levels, and the only thing you gain is a village, all the empires are happy to expand elsewhere. Perhaps a monetary reward, or an extra free unit, could be added to the spoils of conquering a minor empire.
One thing that was really necessary, because the information is spread over a readme and a lot of tables and cards and it contains the occasional 'hole', is a proper reference card. So I went ahead and created one myself, summarizing the setup and game play on a double-sided A4 page.
According to the readme, the size 3 cities are not used. The size 1 cities are used for 'colonies', and the size 2 and size 4 cities are used for villages and cities. We actually found it more convenient NOT to use the size 2 cities, and to use size 3 instead for the villages. This made the distinction with the colonies much easier, while the distinction between village and city remained obvious as well. The size 2 cities were used to indicate the current statuses for each empire on the Stability, Goverments, and Religions tables - on which the size 2 cities also fit better, by the way. (Later we replaced these with settlers, which also works. I do not know yet which I prefer.)
Although the game played very well, we found that there was usually very little impetus for one empire to attack another. This was mostly because of the unit statistics, which are strongly in favour of a very defensive posture, since all infantry units are quite strong, and almost all have the same strength as the offensive cavalry unit of the same level. The result was a rather static game, once all the territories were explored. In fact, the only battle occurred just after one empire had upgraded its units, and attacked another empire that had not yet done so. We would prefer a slightly more dynamic game, for instance with slightly weaker infantry and/or slightly stronger cavalry/tanks. We had a similar situation at sea, but there are not enough different types of units to compensate there, and it is also a smaller issue.
Perhaps a more gradual infantry improvement would be better. For instance, attack/defence for Swordsman 1/2, Pikeman 2/3, Musketman 3/4, Machinegunner 4/5; and a bigger leap for cavalry/tanks: for instance Horseman 3/1, Knight 5/2, Cavalry 7/3, Tank 9/4, or some such. But this would have to be tested, of course. By making offensive units slightly stronger relative to defensive units, battles become a little bit more likely. By keeping the stats a little bit closer together, a sudden upgrade to a new unit does not necessarily mean that everyone else has to upgrade as soon as possible too.
Once an empire has built the Spaceship, unless someone else is able to take their capital, the game is pretty much over. Also, once the technology tree is exhausted, there is really not that much point in continuing for 5 more turns, since the winner(s) will be quite obvious by that time. It might therefore be better to have the building of the Spaceship, and perhaps also the discovery of the last technology, function as a game-ending timer. After this event, everybody immediately counts VPs. See also the next item.
The biggest empire has the most Techs, Wonders and cities and will win the game. This is because VPs are only awarded for cities, Wonders and money. Although it makes little sense to award a VP for each tech, since usually everybody owns just about everything by the end of the game, it might be cool to add VPs for 1st Time tech discoveries, for instance 2 VP per first tech discovery. This adds extra impetus to be the first to get a technology (OK, that is not really necessary since the extra effect is often quite nice already), and it might equalize the VP count at the end a bit.
There are no barbarians. Although this is not really necessary, we both missed these guys. For a next game, we might include some of the 'No encounter' chits as kickoffs for Barbarian villages: grey village plus best possible defender (same as for revolting cities). Since there is a city, and there is no penalty for conquering it, it becomes interesting for the players to try and do so. It would also add a little more spice to an otherwise nearly 'perfect' exploring phase - since the only 'disaster' is the Plague, which can cost you (usually) just one unit.
(Actually, now that I think about it, you could even give barbarians an offensive rather than a defensive unit, and perhaps even introduce a random chance for attacks from them, at which point they would get an additional offensive unit. This option could be explored as well.)
Again, adding barbarians/independents this way will of course have to be tested.
i've just added v1.01, containing almost every fix and addition you requested.
Please update the reference so that maybe next time I can include it!
So where is v1.01? Is it on Boardgamegeek?
Well, the original link to the download page is at the top of this forum. But for everyone's convenience, here is the direct download link:
Note that the reference sheet is not yet included, since it first needs to be updated to version 1.01. Working...
I know, I just didn't see any sign of an update... BTW, on the ref sheet.
Rhye, I have a quick question. On the Taxation action, you specify that villages give 5 gold, and cities give 10 gold. Does this mean that colonies give 0 gold? Just checking. Then, on the construction card you wrote "Found a village on a free territory..." Did you mean Colony?
Separate names with a comma.