Rhye's and Fall RAND: Preview #2

jkp1187 · Jun 27, 2008

Sorry -- I missed the part where Rhye asked that the lists be limited to 10 cities.

Let me chew on this for a little bit then I'll make my recommendations.

dionysos2048 · Jun 27, 2008

jkp1187 said:
This is a good point. For that matter, I don't see anything wrong with two civs having a city with an identical name. For instance: let Algiers be on both the French #4 list and Arab #2 list. Whichever civs founds it first "wins" the name -- the other civ won't be able to found it, because the game won't allow two cities with identical names to be founded. Indeed, this might be the best solution to Jerusalem, too. It can be on the list for Arabs, Romans, Babylonians, heck, even the British.....

The thing is Rhye has already decided against that:

Rhye said:
- I think that we should keep things simple and assign a city only to one civ

jkp1187 · Jun 27, 2008

Here are my suggestions for France:

Spoiler :

I did not change any of the list 1 and 2 names.

Added Brazzaville, Bangui, and Fort Laperine to list 3, mainly because I wanted to give French African cities better representation in the list, and I was worried that the list was a little too heavy with French settlements in America. (I was glad to see that Brazzaville is an inland city....)

My controversial choice is Tourane on list 4 -- although it was founded as Da Nang (and is known as that today,) it was the first location in Indochina to fall under French rule, and was renamed Tourane for the rest of French ascendancy in Indochina. As far as I can tell, there were no French-settled cities in Indochina, and this was the only significant city that adopted a French name. If there were a Vietnamese civ, this would be on the cutting room floor, but since there isn't, I thought it might be included.

jkp1187 · Jun 27, 2008

Please delete. Duplicate post.

jkp1187 · Jun 27, 2008

dionysos2048 said:
The thing is Rhye has already decided against that:

I saw that, but was just offering my own opinion. (Of course, with the 10 cities per list limit, it shouldn't be too difficult to avoid the problem altogether.)

say1988 · Jun 27, 2008

Also, the 10 cities is not a limit, I read that as a minimum.
For example his Spanish lists are 16, 12, 14, and 15 cities long.

I think his points are being taken too literally.
10 is enough, does not mean maximum 10. I would say this is especially true for civs with small/no list 3 or 4.
He said to consider founding date, to me this implies it is a criteria, but not the only thing that matters.

Virdrago · Jun 27, 2008

In regards to Umarth's Roman list:

Spoiler :

Pisae was a coastal town in Roman times. It's 20 miles away from the sea now, but it was a major naval port in Roman times. It should be in List 2.

PinkPallin · Jun 27, 2008

Virdrago said:
In regards to Umarth's Roman list:
Pisae was a coastal town in Roman times. It's 20 miles away from the sea now, but it was a major naval port in Roman times. It should be in List 2.

But I'm not sure Rhye would like this new entry.... :lol:

In list 2 should be moved as well Antium, Capua and Pompeii (by the way, none of them was founded by the Romans).
I'm currently working on a revision of Umarth's list, of course with the main addition of Mediolanum.

PinkPallin · Jun 27, 2008

Please remember that the Romans spawned in a country that already was civilized: they actually founded few cities (mostly in strategic positions facing the Celts and neighbours) and annexed or conquered the rest of their empire. But it's quite hard to establish the dates for annexation, as many cities started as allies and remained formally independent for quite a long time.

That said, here's my revision of Umarth's list of Italian (pardon, Roman!...) cities:

1) Non-coastal cities:

ROMA founded 753 b.C.
Arretium (Arezzo) founded IX century b.C., conquered 295 b.C.
Tarquinii (Tarquinia) conquered 281 b.C.
Beneventum (Benevento) founded VII century b.C., conquered 268 b.C.
Mediolanum (Milano) founded 600 b.C., conquered 222 b.C.
Faesulae (Fiesole) annexed III century b.C.
Felsina – Bononia (Bologna) founded 534 b.C., conquered 189 b.C.
Brixia (Brescia) founded VI century b.C., annexed 189 b.C.
Parma founded VI century b.C., annexed 183 b.C.
Perusia (Perugia) founded VI century b.C., annexed 89 b.C.
Verona annexed 89 b.C.
Placentia (Piacenza) founded 218 b.C.
Ticinum (Pavia) founded 189 b.C.
Forum Livii (Forlì) founded 188 b.C.
Aquileia founded 181 b.C.
Florentia (Firenze) founded 59 b.C.
Augusta Taurinorum (Torino) founded 29 b.C.
Augusta Praetoria Salassorum (Aosta) founded 25 b.C.

2) Coastal cities:

Ostia founded 633 b.C.
Antium (Anzio) annexed V century b.C.?
Capua founded 800 b.C., annexed 343 b.C.
Rhegium (Reggio Calabria) founded VIII century b.C., annexed 341 b.C.
Neapolis (Napoli) founded V century b.C., conquered 326 b.C.
Tarentum (Taranto) founded 706 b.C., conquered 272 b.C.
Brundisium (Brindisi) founded ?, conquered 267 b.C.
Genua (Genova) founded XX century b.C., refounded 203 b.C.
Pisae (Pisa) founded VI century b.C., annexed 180 b.C.
Ancona founded 387 b.C., annexed 113 b.C.

Blood & Thunder · Jun 28, 2008

sgrig said:
A good list, but I don't think Yalta should be on the list in such a prominent position, because it has never been Russian until after the Russian-Ottoman wars of late 18th century. If anything, it should be part of the colonial Byzantine city list (if Byzantines make it as a major civ in RFC RAND!). After that it's main importance was as a summer resort, so it would be strange to see it in Civ as as a powerhouse city (coming so high up in the list)

Regarding Kiev, I still think it should be included in the Russian city list, probably after Moscow. Since the 17th century it has been a very important part of any Russian "empire", and originally much of Russia's culture stemmed from Kiev. It's role is hard to underestimate.

The Byzatines aren't going to be in RAND because Rhye said that one city should only be assigned to one Civ and the Byzatines share a capital with the Turks, and since the Byzantines aren't included in the original game...

tengguan · Jun 28, 2008

First, I have to say some of the dates these cities founded are confirmed by their local government and history experts though they might be amazing.
Welcome to correct and discuss my list
1.for non-coastal cities in the continent
Hard to choose 10, so I get more
Beijing (Peking) founded in 1045 BC
(just a acient city in its modern area, being capital of one states in 600sBC, being capital of Jin Dinasty in 1153, rebulit by Mongols in 1258, rebulit and renamed Beijing in 1403)
Xi'an (Chang'an) founded in 1000s BC
(rebulit many times, flourish in 600ADs being capital of China for 1191 years)
Luoyang 770BC
Kaifeng 700sBC (flourish in 1000ADs, before invade of Mongols)
Suzhou 541BC
Yangzhou 486BC (flourish in 1000ADs, before invade of Mongols)
Nanjing 472BC
Chengdu 311BC (a city never completely destroyed, have a mass earthquake recently)
Shenyang BC301~296
LanzhouBC 241
Chongqing(BC 1100s but named Chongqing in 1189)
Wuhan(BC 1500s but disappear in BC 1100s, 3 cities together renamed Wuhan in 1927)
Lasa(Lhasa) 633 AD (Not ours that time, but Tibet belong to China since the domination of Mogols 700years ago)
Wulumuqi(Urumqi) 1755 AD (So we call there "new horizon")
II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent
we don't forcus on navagation and navy...and many ancient coastal cities fall...
Hangzhou(Lin'an) 221BC
Guangzhou(Canton) 214BC
Ningbo 821AD
Xianmen(Amoy) 1387AD
Tianjin(Tientsin) 1404AD
Shanghai 1553AD Sorry to forget it...
Qingdao(Tsintao) 1891AD (Former German Colony)
Macau (Aomen 澳&#38376

Maybe 1557AD (Who knows what Portuguese did there?)
Hangkong 1841AD (actually Xianggang香港... means fragrant harbor Former English Colony)
Dalian 1899AD (Former Russian Colony)
Shenzhen 1980AD (the fastest growing cities, use 20 years from a small villige to a city with 11 million population)
3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
I'm sorry that we don't have, but maybe there's many Chinese in some cities nowadays...
4- for coastal cities in another continent
I think islands near continent should count, isn't it? So...
Haikou several hundreds years ago... can't find.
Sanya
Taipei(Maybe Taibei is better) 1875AD (Taiwan was invaded by Niederlander, Spainish and Japanese, but it's part of China undoubtly, no matter it's PRC or ROC)
Kaohsiung(Gaoxiong)

Lokolus · Jun 28, 2008

What about Shanghai?

dionysos2048 · Jun 28, 2008

jkp1187 said:
Here are my suggestions for France:

Spoiler :

1 (Home, inland)
Paris
Orléans
Lyon
Reims
Tours
Toulouse
Angers
Rennes
Avignon
Besançon

2 (Home, coastal)
Bordeaux
Marseille
Nantes
Montpelier
Brest
La Rochelle
Calais
Toulon
Nice
Le Havre

3 (Colonial, inland)
Québec
Trois-Rivières
Montréal
Bâton-Rouge
Bangui
Fort Niagara
Brazzaville
Ste-Marie
Fort-Lamy
Fort Laperine

4 (Colonial, coastal)
Saint-Louis-du-Sénégal
Nouvelle Orléans
Cayenne
Fort-de-France
Port-au-Prince
Libreville
Philippeville
Abidjan
Tourane
Nouméa

I did not change any of the list 1 and 2 names.

Added Brazzaville, Bangui, and Fort Laperine to list 3, mainly because I wanted to give French African cities better representation in the list, and I was worried that the list was a little too heavy with French settlements in America. (I was glad to see that Brazzaville is an inland city....)

My controversial choice is Tourane on list 4 -- although it was founded as Da Nang (and is known as that today,) it was the first location in Indochina to fall under French rule, and was renamed Tourane for the rest of French ascendancy in Indochina. As far as I can tell, there were no French-settled cities in Indochina, and this was the only significant city that adopted a French name. If there were a Vietnamese civ, this would be on the cutting room floor, but since there isn't, I thought it might be included.

Ok with your lists, with 2 exceptions:
Fort Laperine (I've never heard of it, and there's no French entry in Wikipedia under that name)
Tourane. Like you said France didn't found any city in Indochina, and haven't done much there. Actually, I was in Laos and Cambodia last summer, and although it's been ruled by France for a century, you hardly ever notice it. So I'd rather not have any city from that region.
Also I forgot about Papeete (Tahiti) that could be a nice addition to list 4.

sgrig · Jun 28, 2008

Blood & Thunder said:
The Byzatines aren't going to be in RAND because Rhye said that one city should only be assigned to one Civ and the Byzatines share a capital with the Turks, and since the Byzantines aren't included in the original game...

That's true. Byzantines also overlap too much with Rome and Greece.

Skitters · Jun 28, 2008

Rhye said:
York
Bristol
Nottingham
Ipswich
Norwich
Birmingham
Cambridge
Canterbury
Newcastle
Blackburn
Manchester
Glasgow
Middlesbrough

London
Hastings
Edinburgh
Cardiff
Brighton
Portsmouth
Hull
Blackpool
Aberdeen
Belfast
Plymouth
Liverpool

Should the English place names include Scottish (Edingburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen), Welsh (Cardiff) and Irish (Belfast) cities? (Belfast could possibly be considered a colonial coastal city)

Whilst a major port, London isn't a coastal city - though the Thames does give it navigable access to the North Sea

Not sure Blackburn would be considered a major city. Derby, Leicester, Coventry and Wolverhampton would be better choices for inland cities. Warwick, Worcester, Stratford and Stoke are other options.

Southampton is a major port that your missing, Grimsby is another alternative. Sunderland would be another good option for a coastal location

Úmarth · Jun 28, 2008

^ Good point about London, especially since Bristol is on the other list.

Metal Alloy Man · Jun 28, 2008

Here's categories 1+2 of the Turkish list!

Category One

1.Ankara/Angora(1200 B.C.)(Current Capital)
2.Erzurum(Ancient times)
3.Denizli(Prehistoric Times by Greeks)(Debatable)
4.Konya(3000-1500 B.C.)
5.Ayintap(1500-1000 B.C.)
6.Malatya(1400 B.C.)
7.Diyâr-i Bekr(1200 B.C.)
8.Eskişehir(1000 B.C.)
9.Edirne(? by Greeks)(Debatable)
10.Bursa(202 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)

Category Two

1.Istanbul(Capital)(founded 330 A.D. by Romans and 667 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
2.Mersin(8000 B.C./1200 B.C.)
3.Karadeniz Ereğli(Ancient times by Greeks)(Debatable)
4.Izmir(1500 B.C.)
5.Trabzon(756 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
6.Alanya(625 B.C.)
7.Samsun(500 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
8.Iskenderon(333 B.C.)
9.Antalya(150 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
10.Bandırma(Recently)

Constructive Criticism is welcome. I can add plenty more to this list but first we need to decide what cities to give to the Greeks. Please help me decide so I can do a Greek list. Thanks.

P.S. categories 3+4 coming soon.

dionysos2048 · Jun 28, 2008

^ I agree with Istanbul, Trabzon and Samsun being on Turkey's lists. I lack knowledge for the other debatable ones.

Lone Wolf · Jun 28, 2008

I think that in some cases the capital should always be named the same. While we have a pretty good both coastal and landlocked capitals for some civs (Moskva - St.Petersburg, Ankara-Istanbul) we lack then for most of the civs, like England or France.

jkp1187 · Jun 28, 2008

dionysos2048 said:
Ok with your lists, with 2 exceptions:
Fort Laperine (I've never heard of it, and there's no French entry in Wikipedia under that name)

Sorry -- typo. Should be Fort Laperrine. Alias "Tamanrasset", in southern Algeria.

Tourane. Like you said France didn't found any city in Indochina, and haven't done much there. Actually, I was in Laos and Cambodia last summer, and although it's been ruled by France for a century, you hardly ever notice it. So I'd rather not have any city from that region.
Also I forgot about Papeete (Tahiti) that could be a nice addition to list 4.

Fair enough about Tourane.

Since the lists apparently don't have to be limited to 10, do you want to restore some of the ones from your original list that I removed? Along with adding Djibouti, Conakry, Bône and Mers-el-Kébir to list 4.

Oh, and stylistic question: is it standard in French to have fort names hypenated? (E.g,. Fort-Lamy, Fort-Niagara?)

Rhye's and Fall RAND: Preview #2

Unindicted Co-Conspirator

AntiSarko

Unindicted Co-Conspirator

Unindicted Co-Conspirator

Unindicted Co-Conspirator

Deity

Wandering

Warlord

Warlord

Chieftain

Chieftain

Retired...

AntiSarko

Comrade

Prince

Megalomaniac

Back in Black

AntiSarko

Deity

Unindicted Co-Conspirator

Similar threads