Rhye's Catapult

[Eddiit]

True, that possibility should exist, but I think it should be more that the Babylonians and Celts survive and the Persians and Romans fail as an alternative. And depending on who falls, spots would open up. For example, the Aztecs might be more likely to appear if the Olmecs and Toltecs are destroyed.


At any rate, I've been playing the mod a few more times. The Greeks have been whatever the opposite of nerfed is. Every game, they're in the lead or close to. The Romans are the same way. In fact, the middle-ancient civs of Persia, Rome, and Greece always survive and thrive. (the Japanese don't do quite so well)

Every time I switch Civs, the game seems to run much slower. It could be because I move from somewhere quiet (china) to Europe. But that does seem to occur.

A few of the "powers" have awkward titles. China's "Power of Myriads" doesn't entirely make sense in English - we usually use myriads to refer to things or concepts, not always people.

Rome's "Power of the Infrastructure" should drop the "the".

Russia's "Power of Winter" isn't exactly awe-inspiring. "Power of the Motherland" works much better.

The Greeks have been doing much better though they did get destroyed in my most recent game.

Regarding the Egyptians I think they need a new civ ability. Maybe we could give them a 25% bonus to wonder construction to reflect how many ancient wonders inhabit Egypt. The ability they have now is just so underwhelming.

 

[SilverKnight]

Of course these are all nitpicking aspects of an excelent product which I'm sure is difficult to achieve.

I agree. All our criticisms and crazy ideas go hand-in-hand with the knowledge that:
1) None of us has been playing vanilla Civ4 for a while,
2) The mod has made leaps and bounds in development, growing faster than any of us has expected (if we thought about it), and
3) Rhye is the king of modding.

This last point is evidenced by the following:

However, there's something else in which RoCX (as well as DyP, actually)influenced civ4.
Such as:
-shorter game (400 turns)
-some units like the Machinegunner or the Camel archer
-defensive archers instead of offensive
-the way small empires can catch up big ones (that wasn't possible in civ3)
-religions and religion-specific buildings
-expensive settlers
-impassable mountains
-impassable ocean for galleys
-non-settleable desert

All of which are innovative in conception, creation, and operation. They kick ass all around!

That said, I'd like to contribute my two cents to the religion debate, as always.

Arabia's UP represents the fact that it is a religion-based nation, since its founding. Leaving it open to which religion is just for gameplay. Although Arabia will always found Islam, it may be better to switch to Judaism or Chritianity in some games if enough cities in the area already carry said religion.

As for the spread of religions, I like the current way already, but Blas' good ideas should be considered for the expansion.

Referring again to the Arabia's history, I'd like to point out that Islam experienced rapid initial growth mainly due to conquest, not peaceful conversion. So Rhye's choice of a UP is excellent if Arabia is to conquer, which it did historically. Which brings me to wars.

If we're programming events to roughly reoccur in the same time/place as they did IRL (founding of religions, creation of civs, even settlement of colonies), we should also program wars. Ideally only a few, and only between "Cautious" or worse civs, but there should be a chance that the historical agressors (if not the human player) will declare war, proportionate to the diplomatic standings. At least some, if not all, of the following wars should be considered:

Major Wars:

• Greco-Persian Wars
• Conquests of Alexander the Great
• Punic Wars
• Arabic Conquests
• The Crusades
• Mongolian Hordes
• Seven Years War
• Hundred Years War
• Napoleonic Wars
• Mexican-American War
• Franco-Prussian War
• World War I
• World War II

Other conflicts could be included in a more general sense:

• Anglo-Zulu War
• Cold War "indirect wars": Vietnamese/Korean/Afghanistan
• Various historically important insurrections/civil wars (which happen often in history)

On a random turn, say between 1930 and 1940, if Germany is suitably displeased with a particular civ (France, England, Russia, etc.), there is a good chance that they will declare war on that civ. No units build-ups, no tactical placement of troops beforehand, just instant war. Also, if Germany is good-enough friends with Rome, it may ask them for help. Rome would be slightly more inclined to help than usual in this case. If Germany happened to be on bad terms with Russia and France, but not with England, England might still come to the aid of France or Russia if they ask.

See, we are programming all but the most fun (and most dangerous) aspects of the game. We should try and see, if we can. The first question is: can we program the possibility of a war between certain civs, in a certain time?

Just an idea, I'm tired now...

SilverKnight

 

[Bolleque]

I do not think that the mod should be interactive historical simulation.
How could WW2 be initiated in the game e.g. Germans are not present or they are the only one left in Europe

I am wondering if starting techs for each civ are fixed? Maybe they could be somehow dependant on achievements of existing civs on map?
E.g. when Arabia appears they could be a little more advanced than Persia, Egypt, India, Greece but exact number of techs might depend on how those neighbours do. New civs do not land from Mars - they developed in certain environment.
In such condition the game could write more scenarios depending on big events like fall of India etc.

Or maybe the mechanism is already there but I missed it out

I like the mod more and more

 

[Rhye]

Major Wars:

• Greco-Persian Wars
• Conquests of Alexander the Great
• Punic Wars
• Arabic Conquests
• The Crusades
• Mongolian Hordes
• Seven Years War
• Hundred Years War
• Napoleonic Wars
• Mexican-American War
• Franco-Prussian War
• World War I
• World War II

Other conflicts could be included in a more general sense:

• Anglo-Zulu War
• Cold War "indirect wars": Vietnamese/Korean/Afghanistan
• Various historically important insurrections/civil wars (which happen often in history)

Hey, those wars don't need to be programmed at all!

They're already happening with the new AI Wars system.

You see, Greeks like Persian lands, and Persia likes Greek lands; if the dice roll says 3 (Greece) or 5 (Persia), there's a high chance that a war of that kind will happen.
Same with Japan invading India, Spain invading latin America, etc.

 

[Bolleque]

Hey, those wars don't need to be programmed at all!

They're already happening with the new AI Wars system.

You see, Greeks like Persian lands, and Persia likes Greek lands; if the dice roll says 3 (Greece) or 5 (Persia), there's a high chance that a war of that kind will happen.
Same with Japan invading India, Spain invading latin America, etc.

Yeah - that's cool Should not be changed.

And what about starting techs? Are they fixed (as in my previous post)?

 

[Rhye]

Not yet. I know this is an issue, but the I still have to organize in mind an efficient way to program it.

 

[Eddiit]

I agree. All our criticisms and crazy ideas go hand-in-hand with the knowledge that:
1) None of us has been playing vanilla Civ4 for a while,
2) The mod has made leaps and bounds in development, growing faster than any of us has expected (if we thought about it), and
3) Rhye is the king of modding.

This last point is evidenced by the following:

All of which are innovative in conception, creation, and operation. They kick ass all around!

That said, I'd like to contribute my two cents to the religion debate, as always.

Arabia's UP represents the fact that it is a religion-based nation, since its founding. Leaving it open to which religion is just for gameplay. Although Arabia will always found Islam, it may be better to switch to Judaism or Chritianity in some games if enough cities in the area already carry said religion.

As for the spread of religions, I like the current way already, but Blas' good ideas should be considered for the expansion.

Referring again to the Arabia's history, I'd like to point out that Islam experienced rapid initial growth mainly due to conquest, not peaceful conversion. So Rhye's choice of a UP is excellent if Arabia is to conquer, which it did historically. Which brings me to wars.

If we're programming events to roughly reoccur in the same time/place as they did IRL (founding of religions, creation of civs, even settlement of colonies), we should also program wars. Ideally only a few, and only between "Cautious" or worse civs, but there should be a chance that the historical agressors (if not the human player) will declare war, proportionate to the diplomatic standings. At least some, if not all, of the following wars should be considered:

Major Wars:

• Greco-Persian Wars
• Conquests of Alexander the Great
• Punic Wars
• Arabic Conquests
• The Crusades
• Mongolian Hordes
• Seven Years War
• Hundred Years War
• Napoleonic Wars
• Mexican-American War
• Franco-Prussian War
• World War I
• World War II

Other conflicts could be included in a more general sense:

• Anglo-Zulu War
• Cold War "indirect wars": Vietnamese/Korean/Afghanistan
• Various historically important insurrections/civil wars (which happen often in history)

On a random turn, say between 1930 and 1940, if Germany is suitably displeased with a particular civ (France, England, Russia, etc.), there is a good chance that they will declare war on that civ. No units build-ups, no tactical placement of troops beforehand, just instant war. Also, if Germany is good-enough friends with Rome, it may ask them for help. Rome would be slightly more inclined to help than usual in this case. If Germany happened to be on bad terms with Russia and France, but not with England, England might still come to the aid of France or Russia if they ask.

See, we are programming all but the most fun (and most dangerous) aspects of the game. We should try and see, if we can. The first question is: can we program the possibility of a war between certain civs, in a certain time?

Just an idea, I'm tired now...

SilverKnight

For the record I'm incredibly against scripted wars.

 

[Eddiit]

With the new war system your setting it up to be limited wars right? Not every war needs to wipe out a civ.

I'm dying to see the new additions Rhye.

 

[Eddiit]

Hey, those wars don't need to be programmed at all!

They're already happening with the new AI Wars system.

You see, Greeks like Persian lands, and Persia likes Greek lands; if the dice roll says 3 (Greece) or 5 (Persia), there's a high chance that a war of that kind will happen.
Same with Japan invading India, Spain invading latin America, etc.

Has Japan ever had a desire for Indian lands? I figured Japan would want korea, Manchuria, Indonesia and maybe Australia.

Egypt would want Israel.

Persia would want Greece and Greece would want Persia.

Rome would want all of Europe, Israel and North Africa.

Germany would probably want all of Europe and west russia.

Russia would want its national borders and eastern europe.

England would want India, North america,sotuh africa, australia and Southern china.

China would want mongolia.

Mongolia would want russia, eastern europe and china.

Etc.


Some really interesting scenarios could wind up playing out with that. One more question...with the new system nations will still invade other nations for areas they didnt typically control right?

 

[Rhye]

sorry I meant Japan invading China, not India.

The rest of the wars is unchanged, there are just some more war declarations based on those "desires".

 

[Riker]

For the record I'm incredibly against scripted wars.

I'm with you.


But (Yes, I'm saying it again) the Incans terraces are still a great mistery for me

 

[Blasphemous]

A few of the "powers" have awkward titles. China's "Power of Myriads" doesn't entirely make sense in English - we usually use myriads to refer to things or concepts, not always people.

Rome's "Power of the Infrastructure" should drop the "the".

Russia's "Power of Winter" isn't exactly awe-inspiring. "Power of the Motherland" works much better.

The whole "Power of" prefix could be dropped in most cases.
The names can be as follows, in full (some are just suggested names and not a removal of "power of")

EGY	[B]Pharaonic Rule[/B]
IND	[B]Spirituality[/B]
CHI	[B]Strength in Numbers[/B]
GRE	[B]Philosophy[/B]
ROM	[B]Infrastructure[/B]
PER	[B]Satrapy[/B]
JAP	[B]Code of Honor[/B]
SPA	[B]Discovery[/B]
ARA	[B]Power of Faith[/B]
FRA	[B]Entente[/B]
ENG	[B]Power of the Royal Navy[/B]
GER	Power of the Bad UP -- err, [B]Power of Blitzkrieg[/B]
RUS	[B]Russian Winter[/B]
MAL	[B]Wealth[/B]
INC	[B]Terraces[/B]
MON	[B]Power of the Golden Horde[/B]
AZT	[B]Human Sacrifice[/B]
AME	[B]American Dream[/B]

I agree. All our criticisms and crazy ideas go hand-in-hand with the knowledge that:
1) None of us has been playing vanilla Civ4 for a while,
2) The mod has made leaps and bounds in development, growing faster than any of us has expected (if we thought about it), and
3) Rhye is the king of modding.

I'll drink to that!

Re:scripted wars, I wouldn't be totally against actually scripting in a tendency towards certain wars at certain times, but the way Rhye is already implementing it is way, way better than that. I can't wait to play with this new system!
Rhye, can you release a version as soon as possible where the Immigration popups don't show up? I haven't gotten that far in 080 yet, but I think I will get a chance to play a lot soon and I don't look forward to having a popup come up all the time in the late game.

 

[Rhye]

yes, I will post it soon.

I have changed the first page schedule:

there is no more "basic" or "expanded".

I'm just thinking to merge the two:
the current one stands already in the middle; with something more from the to-do list it will be complete.
Something will be added only with Warlords, and this way that version will just be called "for Warlords".
A few features of the list, instead, might be dropped.

 

[Riker]

Right. Since no one else has got problems with the Incan bonus, I'm playing as them to see if I'm delusional. Researching nazionalism around 1500, never worked a mountain tile in 400 years. It's just... useless

 

[Cannae]

Zulu won't be included at all. There no point in starting playing in 1800 with no chance to win or to be just not the worst.

May I give an idea aboght that???My idea is that instead of having the Zulu you could repalce it with an earlier civ such as the Twareg or Axum (I think that is Ethiopiea) (Iwould like the berbers but they are too close to Carthage so that is why I said they should instead add the Twaerg but that would be a problem too sicnce that they would be in the Sahara Desert.)sorry if that was a bad idea

 

[rappstar]

Just for the record, I am the consummate lurker. But Rhye, be fully aware that your work is highly appreciated.

I loved Civ3. I played it quite a bit. But I grew bored with my toy and went onto other toys. Then I tried the "fastest loading mod." I fell in love with my toy again with a frequency that made my wife loathe my computer.

Everyone beams about how "utterly fantastic Civ4" is while I barely made it through 2 games. Almost instantly I went back to these same old forums looking for that mad genius who stole my life. Like a junkie, who waits for his favorite hookup to get out of jail, I await your next installment.

Saying that "Rhye is the king of modding," is like saying that some dudes live in Manhattan.

 

[Rhye]

Right. Since no one else has got problems with the Incan bonus, I'm playing as them to see if I'm delusional. Researching nazionalism around 1500, never worked a mountain tile in 400 years. It's just... useless

it's 2 food + 1 hammer since next version.
Sometimes I'm quiet and I don't tell you but I've already done the changes

 

[Rhye]

May I give an idea aboght that???My idea is that instead of having the Zulu you could repalce it with an earlier civ such as the Twareg or Axum (I think that is Ethiopiea) (Iwould like the berbers but they are too close to Carthage so that is why I said they should instead add the Twaerg but that would be a problem too sicnce that they would be in the Sahara Desert.)sorry if that was a bad idea

Ethiopia is a good idea, it even was in RoC for Civ3.
Playable or not playable will depend on the "stuff" available at the moment.

 

[Rhye]

Just for the record, I am the consummate lurker. But Rhye, be fully aware that your work is highly appreciated.

I loved Civ3. I played it quite a bit. But I grew bored with my toy and went onto other toys. Then I tried the "fastest loading mod." I fell in love with my toy again with a frequency that made my wife loathe my computer.

Everyone beams about how "utterly fantastic Civ4" is while I barely made it through 2 games. Almost instantly I went back to these same old forums looking for that mad genius who stole my life. Like a junkie, who waits for his favorite hookup to get out of jail, I await your next installment.

Saying that "Rhye is the king of modding," is like saying that some dudes live in Manhattan.

Thank you,
I appreciate your appreciation! (sorry for the game word).

I'm not sure you are aware that alpha versions are already available.

I take advantage of this occasion to announce the new one:


http://rhye.civfanatics.net/civ4/files/RhyesCatapult084.zip



0.84 changelog:

- Greece popups now appear again
- Improved Greek and Incan UP
- Fixed Arabian and American UP
- Updated some UP descriptions
- Updated no founding areas
- Mongolian and German flip area expanded
- Updated some city name corrispondences
- Adjusted handicap values
- Amount of barbarians now appropriate to the handicap level (now Viceroy and Emperor behave similar to Monarch)
- Increased barbarians in some regions
- Tweaked some modifiers
- Knossos removed
- AIWars system added: AIs now may declare war each other judging from a specific map
- Message warning about flipping units added
- Fixed double notification bug in replay
- Got rid of some messages about city founding and civics in replay
- RoC naval movement (a kind of): cost halved in ocean

 

[Red Threat]

Hey, those wars don't need to be programmed at all!

They're already happening with the new AI Wars system.

You see, Greeks like Persian lands, and Persia likes Greek lands; if the dice roll says 3 (Greece) or 5 (Persia), there's a high chance that a war of that kind will happen.
Same with Japan invading India, Spain invading latin America, etc.

Yes, but maybe with Warlords something of SilverKnight's idea could be implemented. I think at the programmed-in-time spawn of Warlord units, one for each civ; e.g. Alexander for Greece in 330BC, Cyrus for Persia in 560BC, Hitler for Germany around 1940 etc. and make more likely to these civs to declare war when the warlord appears (with the great system you made), and/or give more powers to these units.

P.S. Could you PM me telling the changes you made at the maps? Or did you add only more city renaming scripts? I'll send Mali list asap.