Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded
- Thread starter Rhye
- Start date
- Status
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
Enkidu Warrior made a pair of excellent suggestions that basically got overrun:
-Cavalry and Lancers => Paratroopers
(I can vouch for historicity as well, and although it would be more accurate to make them Helicopters, since there actually are Airborne units, like the 101st... but since we do not have chopper units...)
-An upgrade line for Camel and Elephant units
(Camel riders look cool... but they are basically horsemen. If we are not going to upgrade them further, could you make them 3.1.1 units? Elephant units are pretty good IMHO, but I would like to see them transition into something else as well. Perhaps Cavalry?)
I understand the leery looks blitzing Horse Archers are getting, but seriously, how often does the blitz ability get used on a 2 move unit? And on one with an attack that is barely better than the defenders it faces? You have to remember that this unit exists at the same time as knights, and actually existed longer in both directions! Who here builds Horse Archers? They are too WEAK for a unit that takes so long to upgrade! Blitz would at least increase the utility of a unit that has so little future... unlike knights, who are constantly upgraded.
I have one suggestion of my own that I would like to repeat: increasing the likelihood of AI-AI trading. The human should NOT be such an important catalyst that the timing of the tech tree is destroyed by its absence.
Thats about it for now. I just wanted to make sure that these ideas didnt get lost in the flow.
-Cavalry and Lancers => Paratroopers
(I can vouch for historicity as well, and although it would be more accurate to make them Helicopters, since there actually are Airborne units, like the 101st... but since we do not have chopper units...)
-An upgrade line for Camel and Elephant units
(Camel riders look cool... but they are basically horsemen. If we are not going to upgrade them further, could you make them 3.1.1 units? Elephant units are pretty good IMHO, but I would like to see them transition into something else as well. Perhaps Cavalry?)
I understand the leery looks blitzing Horse Archers are getting, but seriously, how often does the blitz ability get used on a 2 move unit? And on one with an attack that is barely better than the defenders it faces? You have to remember that this unit exists at the same time as knights, and actually existed longer in both directions! Who here builds Horse Archers? They are too WEAK for a unit that takes so long to upgrade! Blitz would at least increase the utility of a unit that has so little future... unlike knights, who are constantly upgraded.
I have one suggestion of my own that I would like to repeat: increasing the likelihood of AI-AI trading. The human should NOT be such an important catalyst that the timing of the tech tree is destroyed by its absence.
Thats about it for now. I just wanted to make sure that these ideas didnt get lost in the flow.
I've fixed the file. Nobody telling how it is?
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
My brother was in the 1st Cav. I asked him what hardware they used. He said mostly tanks and Bradleys, and added that they used Helicopters back in Vietnam. A realistic choice for Cavalry and Lancer upgrades would be an Air Cavalry or Mech Infantry. Or a horseman with automatic weapon, such as what we see in modern Afghanistan. But I like Aeon221's suggestion of Paratrooper. This has been a neglected unit for me, and such an upgrade line would breathe new life into it. The only thing to watch out for is a sudden gush of paratroopers, as all the cavalry are upgraded. I would prefer to see a weaker unit, such as a mounted soldier with automatic weapons (low defense). Whatever the solution is, all elephant and camel units should share in it.
Blitz on a Mounted Archer? I have no objections. I did not build this unit, seeing how weak it was, until just before I got Flintlock, so that I would have a pool of them to upgrade to Cossacks. BTW, I was very disappointed about the lack of Blitz on Cossacks. That is like taking Amphibious Assault away from Berserks. Just because it is the only unit to get the ability early, doesn't mean it was a bad thing. If you need to power down this UU, I would prefer to see its hp, attack, and even defense lowered than the Blitz removed.
My suggestion: Cossack of 5-2-3, blitz, -1 hp (so that the frequent generation of elites does not result in an hp advantage).
Blitz on a Mounted Archer? I have no objections. I did not build this unit, seeing how weak it was, until just before I got Flintlock, so that I would have a pool of them to upgrade to Cossacks. BTW, I was very disappointed about the lack of Blitz on Cossacks. That is like taking Amphibious Assault away from Berserks. Just because it is the only unit to get the ability early, doesn't mean it was a bad thing. If you need to power down this UU, I would prefer to see its hp, attack, and even defense lowered than the Blitz removed.
My suggestion: Cossack of 5-2-3, blitz, -1 hp (so that the frequent generation of elites does not result in an hp advantage).
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
@Rhye: I tried to download it, and got an Error 503 page:
kooky page said:
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
Haha is that russian? german? No WAY you could convince me its a romantic language ;p
It is QVITE clear i need to update myself on the modern military... which means moving away from
and toward 
The closest I am to the truly modern period is Vietnam... which I mostly know about from games and one (or at most two) book ;p
How about improving the stats of the Paratrooper, or at least its range? Maybe an attack increase to on level with Cav?
From what I recall of some Vietnam era literature on the subject, the designation Cavalry in the "modern" army is meant to refer to fast moving forces capable of acting in advance of primary forces. Modern Paras are too weak (6.11) to really take that role on, and too expensive to be used in mass quantities (although at 110 they are equivalent in price to Modern Infantry, Modern Armor, a far superior unit, only costs 150... this needs to be adjusted!)
Is an 8 square drop range and a defensive increase of one point worth the loss of four points of attack?
And is Modern Armor fairly priced at 150? A 20.12.3 unit with blitz and ZoC?
As a final request, I have played a few mods where the Helicopter has a range increase. When this is done, its strategic utility is greatly increased! I have actually bothered to cut off enemy cities and harass them with deep launch invasions.
As is, you are best off building Modern Armor and Tow Infantry and leaving everything else (besides the ubiqitous bombers...) unbuilt.
I KNOW you do not want to see any more unit balancing posts Rhye, but Modern Armor (and the rest of the modern era units) really need to be looked at and restatted.
Sorry, I just feel that there should be no overwhelmingly dominant unit in the modern age, when the rest of the ages were designed to give people choices about how to build their army (Specialists vs Generalists) ;p
It is QVITE clear i need to update myself on the modern military... which means moving away from
and toward The closest I am to the truly modern period is Vietnam... which I mostly know about from games and one (or at most two) book ;p
How about improving the stats of the Paratrooper, or at least its range? Maybe an attack increase to on level with Cav?
From what I recall of some Vietnam era literature on the subject, the designation Cavalry in the "modern" army is meant to refer to fast moving forces capable of acting in advance of primary forces. Modern Paras are too weak (6.11) to really take that role on, and too expensive to be used in mass quantities (although at 110 they are equivalent in price to Modern Infantry, Modern Armor, a far superior unit, only costs 150... this needs to be adjusted!)
Is an 8 square drop range and a defensive increase of one point worth the loss of four points of attack?
And is Modern Armor fairly priced at 150? A 20.12.3 unit with blitz and ZoC?
As a final request, I have played a few mods where the Helicopter has a range increase. When this is done, its strategic utility is greatly increased! I have actually bothered to cut off enemy cities and harass them with deep launch invasions.
As is, you are best off building Modern Armor and Tow Infantry and leaving everything else (besides the ubiqitous bombers...) unbuilt.
I KNOW you do not want to see any more unit balancing posts Rhye, but Modern Armor (and the rest of the modern era units) really need to be looked at and restatted.
Sorry, I just feel that there should be no overwhelmingly dominant unit in the modern age, when the rest of the ages were designed to give people choices about how to build their army (Specialists vs Generalists) ;p
I've added mod. armor, helic. and Ai trade to the to-do list.
About horse archers, my greatest fears are that Knights become useless and that Mangudai become unstoppable (3/1/3 + blitz)
But I want to know what do you think of the installer
I've changed the ftp:
http://www.civfanatics.net/~rhye/files/ROCX_Setup.exe
That language should be Hungarian btw
About horse archers, my greatest fears are that Knights become useless and that Mangudai become unstoppable (3/1/3 + blitz)
But I want to know what do you think of the installer
I've changed the ftp:
http://www.civfanatics.net/~rhye/files/ROCX_Setup.exe
That language should be Hungarian btw
Camber said:
Speaking about History, there is nothing proving that Cossack should have the blitz.
31 new UUs means that there's more room for combinations. The blitz fits better a unit like the Hussar rather than Cossacks. Defense 4 and ignore forest cost make Russia a hard place to invade like in realty.
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
@Rhye: I should have looked closer at the civilopedia--did not notice the ignore movement cost on forest feature! Yes, that is a decent tradeoff.
On the setup program, I was able to download and run it. The screenshots were great, and everything worked smoothly. I'm not sure what it did--reinstall RoCX on my computer? There was one thing I didn't expect, a popup window telling me what software you used to create it. Is there any way to eliminate that? (Not important, just asking).
On the setup program, I was able to download and run it. The screenshots were great, and everything worked smoothly. I'm not sure what it did--reinstall RoCX on my computer? There was one thing I didn't expect, a popup window telling me what software you used to create it. Is there any way to eliminate that? (Not important, just asking).
Enkidu_Warrior
Shaman
i like what i'm hearing from camber and soma, and would like to suggest that both projects run independently (ie in parallel):
camber, an 85x85 (or 100x100) 8-civ multi-player version
soma, a 100x100 (or 130x134) 12-civ small-map version
i'm happy to make myself available for beta-testing and sound-boarding. however, i notice the time change makes for slow "conversations"
regarding paratroopers and modern paratroopers, keep in mind that early paratroopers, such as used in ww2, were essential pillage and defensive units. there's a great strategy tutorial about paratroopers in C3C at this site that talks more about their historical uses. and essentially, their stats are accurate representations.
the modern paratrooper has essentially a similar role, with more modern equipment, ergo the better stats. my feeling was that having the cavalry line upgrade to paratroopers was a step backward, but upgrading to modern paratroopers is actually an improvement. it allows those cavalry mass charges for civs without rubber/oil resources through the industrial age, whilst creating a strategic opportunity for dealing with the modern age.
i guess my perspective is skewed by thinking of the 7th cav --> 7th air cav, rather than mech inf. ideally, i'd like to see helicopter units as per SMAC/SMAX, but that's just not possible in C3C.
EW
camber, an 85x85 (or 100x100) 8-civ multi-player version
soma, a 100x100 (or 130x134) 12-civ small-map version
i'm happy to make myself available for beta-testing and sound-boarding. however, i notice the time change makes for slow "conversations"
regarding paratroopers and modern paratroopers, keep in mind that early paratroopers, such as used in ww2, were essential pillage and defensive units. there's a great strategy tutorial about paratroopers in C3C at this site that talks more about their historical uses. and essentially, their stats are accurate representations.
the modern paratrooper has essentially a similar role, with more modern equipment, ergo the better stats. my feeling was that having the cavalry line upgrade to paratroopers was a step backward, but upgrading to modern paratroopers is actually an improvement. it allows those cavalry mass charges for civs without rubber/oil resources through the industrial age, whilst creating a strategic opportunity for dealing with the modern age.
i guess my perspective is skewed by thinking of the 7th cav --> 7th air cav, rather than mech inf. ideally, i'd like to see helicopter units as per SMAC/SMAX, but that's just not possible in C3C.
EW
it didn't install the mod - just a couple of files and the start menu folder. You can uninstall it. by the way, what OS are you using? Is the start submenu in its right place?
The popup is mandatory unless I regi$ter that program.
The popup is mandatory unless I regi$ter that program.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
OH SCORE THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!
I was messing with the Vietnam War Scenario, trying to get it a little more accurate and balanced, and I wanted the helis to be more realistic than they were in the scenario.
SO: I made them mov 4 trans 2 (I was thinking about changing it to one, since 8 units per turn was a bit much...) bombard 6 (Not sure what it would be in this mod, since the bombard values are different), def of 4, and gave them blitz and a shorter OR than planes. This made them excellent for quick dropping units and providing short range repeated support (Ia Drang Style ;p). The only problem I had was that I wanted them to be able to base at the various Firebases... but they could not because of their ability to transport.
While this seriously PI$$ED me off then (I had spent HOURS trying to figure out what was wrong, changing just about every concieveable value and testing... ugh), it would be perfect now! So how about getting rid of the crummy Chinook thing they have now for the Heli and replacing it with the Huey (stats based off the ones I listed)? You could either have the horse units upgrade to it, or you could have them upgrade to another unit, call it Air Cavalry or something, and make that the only unit capable of getting into the Choppers.
I think this would address multiple issues, and would provide something like an alternative to the strategy of mass armor rushes. Also, giving any object transport makes it impossible for that unit to land on a carrier... so MAYBE Airbases would even become useful!
Sorry! I get creative at random times! It just seemed like an excellent way to change a few things!
I was messing with the Vietnam War Scenario, trying to get it a little more accurate and balanced, and I wanted the helis to be more realistic than they were in the scenario.
SO: I made them mov 4 trans 2 (I was thinking about changing it to one, since 8 units per turn was a bit much...) bombard 6 (Not sure what it would be in this mod, since the bombard values are different), def of 4, and gave them blitz and a shorter OR than planes. This made them excellent for quick dropping units and providing short range repeated support (Ia Drang Style ;p). The only problem I had was that I wanted them to be able to base at the various Firebases... but they could not because of their ability to transport.
While this seriously PI$$ED me off then (I had spent HOURS trying to figure out what was wrong, changing just about every concieveable value and testing... ugh), it would be perfect now! So how about getting rid of the crummy Chinook thing they have now for the Heli and replacing it with the Huey (stats based off the ones I listed)? You could either have the horse units upgrade to it, or you could have them upgrade to another unit, call it Air Cavalry or something, and make that the only unit capable of getting into the Choppers.
I think this would address multiple issues, and would provide something like an alternative to the strategy of mass armor rushes. Also, giving any object transport makes it impossible for that unit to land on a carrier... so MAYBE Airbases would even become useful!
Sorry! I get creative at random times! It just seemed like an excellent way to change a few things!
I'm going to post the patch tomorrow. I've used the excel sheet again to calculate the changes. It helped me in deciding to change something in modern era and not to change horse archers.
Changes in v1.23:
- AI to AI trade rate slightly increased
- Removed the chance of getting a settler from a goody hut, as it was too unbalancing. Now you can only get a warrior (Earth map only)
- Removed some build never flags for the random map
- Removed "build never science" flag for Portugal
- Helicopter operational range now 8
- Tank attack decreased to 15
- Modern Armor now costs 160
- Modern Armor defense decreased to 11
- Modern Armor renamed Main Battle Tank
- Mech. Infantry defense raised to 13
- Paratrooper attack now 6
- Modern Paratrooper attack now 8
- Jaguar Warrior cost decreased to 15
- Eagle Warrior and Clubman now both cost 35
- Fixed AI Strategies flags for Clubman, Elephant Archer, Musketeer, Swiss Mercenary, TOW Infantry, Spearman (5), Firelancer, Cossack
- Turtle Ship now can bombard but can't load units
- Mobile Tower can be loaded and can't load
- Carrier moved to Flight
- The Slave Trade now expires with Mass Production
- Oil appears with Combustion in random maps
- Deleted artificial lakes of Kahovka, Cimljanks, Rybinks, Kremenchug
- Edited Azov sea and Ladoga lake borders
- Added Marsh near Caspius and Azov sea
- Added one river in Peru
- Tuned German (+) strength
- Fixed crash occurring when building a carrier. Eastern civs now have the carrier with the standard animation
- Updated civilopedia
Changes in v1.23:
- AI to AI trade rate slightly increased
- Removed the chance of getting a settler from a goody hut, as it was too unbalancing. Now you can only get a warrior (Earth map only)
- Removed some build never flags for the random map
- Removed "build never science" flag for Portugal
- Helicopter operational range now 8
- Tank attack decreased to 15
- Modern Armor now costs 160
- Modern Armor defense decreased to 11
- Modern Armor renamed Main Battle Tank
- Mech. Infantry defense raised to 13
- Paratrooper attack now 6
- Modern Paratrooper attack now 8
- Jaguar Warrior cost decreased to 15
- Eagle Warrior and Clubman now both cost 35
- Fixed AI Strategies flags for Clubman, Elephant Archer, Musketeer, Swiss Mercenary, TOW Infantry, Spearman (5), Firelancer, Cossack
- Turtle Ship now can bombard but can't load units
- Mobile Tower can be loaded and can't load
- Carrier moved to Flight
- The Slave Trade now expires with Mass Production
- Oil appears with Combustion in random maps
- Deleted artificial lakes of Kahovka, Cimljanks, Rybinks, Kremenchug
- Edited Azov sea and Ladoga lake borders
- Added Marsh near Caspius and Azov sea
- Added one river in Peru
- Tuned German (+) strength
- Fixed crash occurring when building a carrier. Eastern civs now have the carrier with the standard animation
- Updated civilopedia
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
About Horse Archers:
They are already a mini-knights of ancient era.
Best offense/best defense and best movement (with retreat).
Why make them even more unbalanced???
We already have very weak and expensive Swordsmen (only good if with Catapult backup, since bonus HPs and added town defense bonus favor Spearmen defender more), and so and so Horseman.
If it is me I would either cripple Horse Archer, or make Swordsmen better (lower cost to 30?)
I must way, that while I love this mod due to the Eath-type game replayablity, I think that vanilla game has better ancient era unit balance: standard HP, no town defense bonus, equal Swordsmen and Horsmen.
They are already a mini-knights of ancient era.
Best offense/best defense and best movement (with retreat).
Why make them even more unbalanced???
We already have very weak and expensive Swordsmen (only good if with Catapult backup, since bonus HPs and added town defense bonus favor Spearmen defender more), and so and so Horseman.
If it is me I would either cripple Horse Archer, or make Swordsmen better (lower cost to 30?)
I must way, that while I love this mod due to the Eath-type game replayablity, I think that vanilla game has better ancient era unit balance: standard HP, no town defense bonus, equal Swordsmen and Horsmen.
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
To explain Swordsmen issue.
Spearmen fortified in city gets:
+10% terrain bonus
+20% town bonus
+25% forfity bonus
Total 3.1 defense, compared to 2.7 in vanilla game.
Also, since this mod uses higher HP values, this makes swordsmen win even less often.
Also things like "Archer-rushs" in vanilla game aren't so good since difference between one extra HP is smaller.
And then if I would need to choose between 40 shield Swordsmen and just 50 shields HorseArcher that can move more defend better and can retreat (mayor ability) there would really be no choice.
Spearmen fortified in city gets:
+10% terrain bonus
+20% town bonus
+25% forfity bonus
Total 3.1 defense, compared to 2.7 in vanilla game.
Also, since this mod uses higher HP values, this makes swordsmen win even less often.
Also things like "Archer-rushs" in vanilla game aren't so good since difference between one extra HP is smaller.
And then if I would need to choose between 40 shield Swordsmen and just 50 shields HorseArcher that can move more defend better and can retreat (mayor ability) there would really be no choice.
thanks player1fanatic, you confirmed my thoughts. Imagine how devastating Mangudais would become....
listen, can you try this:
http://www.civfanatics.net/~rhye/files/ROCX_Setup.exe
and tell me if everything's alright and if it creates a start menu group? It works for me, but I want to try with a non-italian OS. Better if you have XP, because I tried on mine and I've Win98.
note: it's a fake installation, it doesn't install anything (it's 4 MB). But if it works I'll upload the real one.
listen, can you try this:
http://www.civfanatics.net/~rhye/files/ROCX_Setup.exe
and tell me if everything's alright and if it creates a start menu group? It works for me, but I want to try with a non-italian OS. Better if you have XP, because I tried on mine and I've Win98.
note: it's a fake installation, it doesn't install anything (it's 4 MB). But if it works I'll upload the real one.
Gunner
Emperor
I end up using horse archers alot as they are. Enhancing them would make them more viable once knights come around, but also would overpower them in the ancient age.
I think keeping them as they are would be best. They are really quite effective.
I think keeping them as they are would be best. They are really quite effective.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
Ok, I agree with that. Its true that they are very strong in the Ancient Age.
But they become rather lame in the Middle ages, where they really come into their own. Could we introduce an upgraded form of them?
Also, what about changing the Helicopter to a Huey and making the Cavalry upgrade into it? (Modern Age upgrade of course)
But they become rather lame in the Middle ages, where they really come into their own. Could we introduce an upgraded form of them?
Also, what about changing the Helicopter to a Huey and making the Cavalry upgrade into it? (Modern Age upgrade of course)
Enkidu_Warrior
Shaman
i havent actually fought a modern era war in ROCX, so i cant comment on the changes listed for the next patch with regard to tanks and mech infantry. it seems odd to me, but... :/
by the same token, i dont know the balance issues with paratroopers/modern paratroopers in ROCX. however, i can say that changing their attack levels, as proposed, changes the nature of paratroopers, both relative to their historical uses, and their C3C uses. whilst it might make them more attactive to players (who attack, attack, attack), it takes away from the strategic dynamics of the unit relative to other units in the same era. as such, i'd strongly recommend against those changes.
aeon - could you describe slowly for us plebes (okay, just for this plebe) what you did with the huey to make it more useful? does it essentially amount to adding bombard and blitz?
EW
by the same token, i dont know the balance issues with paratroopers/modern paratroopers in ROCX. however, i can say that changing their attack levels, as proposed, changes the nature of paratroopers, both relative to their historical uses, and their C3C uses. whilst it might make them more attactive to players (who attack, attack, attack), it takes away from the strategic dynamics of the unit relative to other units in the same era. as such, i'd strongly recommend against those changes.
aeon - could you describe slowly for us plebes (okay, just for this plebe) what you did with the huey to make it more useful? does it essentially amount to adding bombard and blitz?
EW
Procrastinator
Chieftain
Rhye, I'm using XP and the installer seems to work great. It successfully installed, including the start menu group, then uninstalled when required. Any chance of giving the option (yes or no) to (i) create a desktop shortcut? (ii) create a start menu group (or at least the path)? (iii) open the readme now?
It went too fast for me to really see the screenshots, but I presume you will pick the best ones to "sell" the advantages of your mod.
PS. the experience of VFM seems to indicate that missing Holy War, etc. still occurs after patching Conquests (ref. your FAQ). He seemed to have a corrupted download and was going to re-download. Haven't heard if it worked.
It went too fast for me to really see the screenshots, but I presume you will pick the best ones to "sell" the advantages of your mod.
PS. the experience of VFM seems to indicate that missing Holy War, etc. still occurs after patching Conquests (ref. your FAQ). He seemed to have a corrupted download and was going to re-download. Haven't heard if it worked.
- Status
