Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread
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Hitti-Litti
Deity
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30 Years War was a kind of a holy war, Protestants vs Catholics. Orthodox didn't have a holy war, I think, but are there other major Orthodox countries than Moscow in RFC Europe?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
There were brief Catholic crusades against the Orthodox countries and of course wars between Catholic and Protestant princes after the Reformation (ie the Thirty Years War). My problem with the AP initiating Holy Wars through the whole timescale of this mod is that it's not very accurate historically. Also where would the Muslim civs figure in all this? Or are they going to be members of the AP too? Again, not very historical is it? The Holy Wars idea really only fits the Crusades period (250 years?) and that will be covered by a Crusades event (initiated by the AP?) in our mod anyway.
EDIT Crosspost. The Byzantines, Bulgaria, Moscow and the Kievan Rus are all Orthodox in our mod.
EDIT Crosspost. The Byzantines, Bulgaria, Moscow and the Kievan Rus are all Orthodox in our mod.
Hitti-Litti
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Actually, the Christians tried to form a crusade against the Ottomans several times later, the Christians just had other interests(Spain focused on the New World, France was allied with the Ottomans). Also there could be a tech that obsoletes Holy Wars(is it possible to do that?).
Also I didn't mean that the holy war would be a AP resolution, I meant that it could be coded in like the AP resolutions or the congresses. I don't know if that's easy to do, or even possible, just wanted to express my idea.
Oh, and I forgot about the Byzantines, Bulgaria and the Kievan Rus, they're of course Orthodox as well...
Also I didn't mean that the holy war would be a AP resolution, I meant that it could be coded in like the AP resolutions or the congresses. I don't know if that's easy to do, or even possible, just wanted to express my idea.
Oh, and I forgot about the Byzantines, Bulgaria and the Kievan Rus, they're of course Orthodox as well...
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
They could be like an AP resolution I guess but only by Catholic countries against Muslim or Orthodox ones. Or by Catholics vs Protestants (ie the Counter-Reformation). Might be possible. What do our modders think?
Anyway I've come up with rough proposals for the final 4 civs, maybe not very well thought out but something to start discussions.
Austria The POWER OF THE HAPSBURGS (something about alliances or vassals?)
..............UHV 1. Control the Carpathian basin by 1600AD
.....................2. Control 3 vassals in 1700 AD
......................3. Have at least 2 Defensive alliances in 1750AD
.................UB Opera House (+4 culture)
..................UU Dragoon (replaces Cuiraissier)
Ottoman Turks The POWER OF ASSIMILATION (No foriegn culture in cities)
...............UHV 1. Control Constantinople and Anatolia in 1500AD
......................2. Control the Balkans south of the Danube in 1650AD
.......................3. Control the Levant and Egypt in 1750AD
...................UB Hammam (replaces aqueduct as in RFC)
...................UU Janissery (replaces musketman as in RFC)
Sweden The POWER OF FORMATION? (something about military tactics, combined arms etc.?)
.................UHV 1. Control Sweden and Finland in 1600AD
........................2. Never lose a city to Poland or Russia by 1700AD
.........................3. Conquer 3 cities east or south of the Baltic by 1750AD
....................UB Soldier Tennant (replaces barracks) -50% foot unit cost
....................UU Hakkapelitta (replaces Hussar 10/3 -50% cost)
Netherlands The POWER OF COMMERCE (Trading Companies give +1 trade route plus +1 happiness per luxury)
...................UHV 1. Have open borders with 10 civs in 1700AD
..........................2. Build 3 Colonial Projects
...........................3. Control 8 luxury resources in 1750AD
......................UB Stock Exchange (requires bank) +2 commerce, +1 gold
.......................UU Grenadier (replaces generic grenadier) -50% unit cost or +50% coll. damage?
Note. Have changed English UB to Royal Exchange as historically the Netherlands built the first Stock Exchange in Amsterdam so I thought it should be their UB. Suggested the Opera House as UB for Austria as I don't think it would be an appropriate wonder for all civs in this mod but might make a suitable culture building as Vienna was a cultural powerhouse in the 17th.to 18th.C.
Anyway I've come up with rough proposals for the final 4 civs, maybe not very well thought out but something to start discussions.
Austria The POWER OF THE HAPSBURGS (something about alliances or vassals?)
..............UHV 1. Control the Carpathian basin by 1600AD
.....................2. Control 3 vassals in 1700 AD
......................3. Have at least 2 Defensive alliances in 1750AD
.................UB Opera House (+4 culture)
..................UU Dragoon (replaces Cuiraissier)
Ottoman Turks The POWER OF ASSIMILATION (No foriegn culture in cities)
...............UHV 1. Control Constantinople and Anatolia in 1500AD
......................2. Control the Balkans south of the Danube in 1650AD
.......................3. Control the Levant and Egypt in 1750AD
...................UB Hammam (replaces aqueduct as in RFC)
...................UU Janissery (replaces musketman as in RFC)
Sweden The POWER OF FORMATION? (something about military tactics, combined arms etc.?)
.................UHV 1. Control Sweden and Finland in 1600AD
........................2. Never lose a city to Poland or Russia by 1700AD
.........................3. Conquer 3 cities east or south of the Baltic by 1750AD
....................UB Soldier Tennant (replaces barracks) -50% foot unit cost
....................UU Hakkapelitta (replaces Hussar 10/3 -50% cost)
Netherlands The POWER OF COMMERCE (Trading Companies give +1 trade route plus +1 happiness per luxury)
...................UHV 1. Have open borders with 10 civs in 1700AD
..........................2. Build 3 Colonial Projects
...........................3. Control 8 luxury resources in 1750AD
......................UB Stock Exchange (requires bank) +2 commerce, +1 gold
.......................UU Grenadier (replaces generic grenadier) -50% unit cost or +50% coll. damage?
Note. Have changed English UB to Royal Exchange as historically the Netherlands built the first Stock Exchange in Amsterdam so I thought it should be their UB. Suggested the Opera House as UB for Austria as I don't think it would be an appropriate wonder for all civs in this mod but might make a suitable culture building as Vienna was a cultural powerhouse in the 17th.to 18th.C.
st.lucifer
King
The initial proposal for an Austrian power was to make independent cities more likely to flip to them, but this strikes me as something that would be hard to put in. Austria, more than any civ, seems like they would benefit most from/enjoy the abilities of the RFC French power, where everyone views them more favorably. Giving them a version of Entente would simulate their web of alliances, royal marriages, and political intrigue in a way that would make a large portion of Europe bound to Austria in some form (which is historically about what we're going for.) I like the UHVs fine, although it is potentially an issue that 2 and 3 are so close together (then again, we're going to run out of time, so that's probably ok.)
The opera house is a good UB. What does it replace? Do we tack the +4 culture onto a theater, and increase the number of hammers required to build it?
As far as the UU goes - we made an error in not having dragoons available to everyone as a late military unit, as most of the European powers used them. I'd be in favor of adding in dragoons as a late military unit (perhaps as an infantry unit with a movement of 2) available to all civs, and perhaps coming up with an Austrian variant of that as their UU.
A couple of suggestions here: All three UHVs are conquest-based, and all represent things that the Ottomans actually accomplished (whereas the third UHV goal in RFC was usually something they might have aspired to). This doesn't require the player to balance anything, especially as the UP greatly assists in expansion and stability.
If we do keep the three conquest goals, which I'm ok with in principle, I'd like to see the following change made: as one of the UHV goals, the Ottomans have to take Vienna. Makes sense, right? If we added that onto the last UHV condition, and perhaps gave them until 1800 to do it, it would require the player to fight a two-front war against one relatively weak opponent of the same religion (stability/happiness hits) and against one likely strong opponent with lots of allies. Much more of a challenge.
Also, a minor thing, but Janissary is spelled with an a rather than with an e.
Actually, I like all of these. No objections.
If the Dutch build 3 colonial projects, 8 luxury resources is very easy - basically a foregone conclusion. For the third UHV condition, I'd be interested in seeing 5 great merchants settled in Amsterdam. That's a bit more of a challenge than gold accumulation, and will require the Dutch player to really pump a lot of resources into generating not only great people, but the right kind of great people, within a fairly short time period.
If the Trading Company for the UP is the national wonder, that's an extremely weak UP. If there's an improvement called trading company, the luxury bonus is overpowered. Using the same name, I'd propose a UP that gives them an extra two trade routes in coastal cities. That's a powerful UP, but they're not likely to have more than 3-4 cities, and only 2-3 of those are likely to be both good and coastal cities.
For the UB, what does +2 commerce and +1 gold do? That's a pitiful bonus, especially for a late-game civ. As written, it also doesn't help them with any of their UHV conditions.
I'd propose the Dike as their UB, replacing the aqueduct (with a much higher - doubled or tripled - hammer cost); with the same effect as a levee in RFC. It doesn't make sense for anyone else to have access to a levee or a dike, while the dike was essentially what made the Dutch land productive. If they're going to be building 3 colonial projects, they're going to need the help.
I'm fine with the UU, and would vote for the collateral damage bonus over the cost bonus. The other possibility that I'd suggest is a strong mostly defensive unit, rather than one they'll use to go after other civs - but there really isn't one that comes to mind which we could convert for that purpose.
Sounds good to me. We could give the Austrians a cultural UHV condition (make Vienna the most cultured city in the world by the end of the game), but that's a hell of a condition to set on a late-spawning civ.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Some thoughts on the above:
My idea was to make the Opera House a UB which was enabled by Music and Public Works in addition to the Theatre and exclusive to Austria. I agree the UP should be like the French Entente giving extra diplomacy points. Not sure about the Dragoon as a foot unit unless it replaces Line Infantry with a extra move. Is that what you meant? Or maybe a stronger Cuiraissier instead?
About the Ottomans. I agree that they should try to conquer Vienna but if AI Austria does it's job at all then surely that's impossible in the timescale isn't it? I think that those 3 UHVs will be hard enough seeing as they'll have to conquer the whole Balkans and wipe out the Arabs entirely or vassalize what's left. Thanks for the spell check on the janissary though.
What effects do you suggest for the Swedish UP? Maybe a Formation upgrade for all units?
I agree with the 5 Great Merchants and the 2 extra trade routes for the Dutch. I'm also for the collateral damage promotion for the Grenadier. If noone disagrees I'll add them to the above.
BTW Did you notice my earlier post (1139) about the Genoan UHVs. Bit of a conflict with the AI War settler map I think?
My idea was to make the Opera House a UB which was enabled by Music and Public Works in addition to the Theatre and exclusive to Austria. I agree the UP should be like the French Entente giving extra diplomacy points. Not sure about the Dragoon as a foot unit unless it replaces Line Infantry with a extra move. Is that what you meant? Or maybe a stronger Cuiraissier instead?
About the Ottomans. I agree that they should try to conquer Vienna but if AI Austria does it's job at all then surely that's impossible in the timescale isn't it? I think that those 3 UHVs will be hard enough seeing as they'll have to conquer the whole Balkans and wipe out the Arabs entirely or vassalize what's left. Thanks for the spell check on the janissary though.
What effects do you suggest for the Swedish UP? Maybe a Formation upgrade for all units?
I agree with the 5 Great Merchants and the 2 extra trade routes for the Dutch. I'm also for the collateral damage promotion for the Grenadier. If noone disagrees I'll add them to the above.
BTW Did you notice my earlier post (1139) about the Genoan UHVs. Bit of a conflict with the AI War settler map I think?
st.lucifer
King
UB's have to replace something, so that's why I suggested remaking the theater. We could even take a less useful building (like aqueduct) and convert that - you can tweak the number of hammers required just as you change the other stuff.
My proposal with the dragoon was this:
Add the dragoon unit for all civs (available with a late tech - something military-science esque). Have it be a slightly weaker than top-of-the-line infantry unit, but give it two moves to represent the fact that they got around on horseback (the dragoon was essentially mounted infantry - they rode horses to where they were needed, dismounted, and fought on foot).
So, add that in for all civs, and then make the Austrian version a bit stronger - maybe give them the same stats as the non-mounted infantry unit, or a built-in pinch promotion.
I like the idea of having UHVs competing with each other. Let's wait for some other opinions on the Vienna issue? I agree that the Ottoman UHVs are challenging, but they've got a great UP and UU, and their competition is likely to be technologically backward by that point (the Arabs) or relatively weak or collapsed (Bulgaria, Hungary).
The initial proposal for the Swedish UP involved reducing the cost of their units, but your proposed UB takes care of that nicely. Giving them all formation free seems like a pretty good UP, especially since they'll be competing with Poland for territory.
I'm with you on the Genoan issue.
I think the Ottoman UP should be diffrent, and reflect on its ability to draft massive armies 5X bigger than any army in Europe at the time, while having no foreign culture is good, i don't think it reflects much about the Turks. So i think the Turks should have higher draft or lower mantinence cost of its massive army
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I think we've got only 2 points at issue here now as we seem to agree on the rest.
I've been doing some more research on Austria where I've learned that they particularly depended on curaissiers and heavy cuiraissiers, maybe more so than other civs at the time. And how much do we really need the dragoon as a third infantry type for all civs that late in the game? I'd rather see a strengthened version of the cuirassier as the Austrian UU with one or two good promotions.
Would that be acceptable?
The points that the Turk has made prompted a rethink about the Ottomans in general. How much use is the elimination of foriegn cultures to a late-game civ that depends on military conquests for its UHV's? As The Turk has rightly pointed out (given his own perspective) that the Ottomans fielded huge armies and depended heavily on conscription. So maybe their UP should be "The Power of Conscription" allowing them to build bigger armies with -50% production costs?
Its also worth emphasizing that the most unique feature of Ottoman armies was their early dependance on artillery of all types, from the Arbus Gun to the Great Bombard which was the key factor in the fall of Constantinople. Why not have either of these as a standalone unique unit which would be of great use if we expect them to conquer Vienna as part of their UHV. I think that would be much more appropriate to their UHVs and more flavourfull too. And here is some art that might work for the Great Bombard. What do you think?
EDIT Files moved to files thread
3Miro
Deity
Turkish UP proposal: can draft from cities with foreign culture. If there is foreign culture in the city, then they can draft Janissary from the city. We can balance on the unhappy/stability/population ratio.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Interesting idea. I've never used the draft before. How does it work? Is it only with Nationhood and does the AI know how to do it?
st.lucifer
King
I think the Ottoman UP should be diffrent, and reflect on its ability to draft massive armies 5X bigger than any army in Europe at the time, while having no foreign culture is good, i don't think it reflects much about the Turks. So i think the Turks should have higher draft or lower mantinence cost of its massive army
That would also be a good UP, but they're actually likely to suffer more from the cultural issue, as they come in late and will be occupying a number of differentially cultured lands. I think Miro's proposal is a good compromise.
Sure. I do want to continue to push for the inclusion of dragoons, though - they really were an important advance in 17th and 18th century warfare. I'm fine with giving Austria a more powerful curiassier.
The reason that I feel there's room for a dragoon unit is that it has both the strengths and weaknesses of infantry and of cavalry. A lot of our civs have formation promotions; here's a way of putting a 2-move unit in the field that doesn't take an extra hit vs. cavalry. By the same token, that unit is weaker than infantry, so it won't hold up in heavy combat. If we really wanted to distinguish such a unit from its competitors, we could have them target artillery first to represent superior maneuverability.
I'd be ok with changing the Turkish UU to an artillery unit, as the Janissaries evolved from sword-and-lance units to gunpowder units over the course of their existence (so having them replace the musketman is something of an anachronism). Rather than have it be a standalone unit, it would make sense to take an early artillery unit like the bombard, and make it considerably more powerful - give it +100% when attacking cities, before any promotions (like a trebuchet), and a fairly high strength (2 or 3 higher than the normal bombard). That gives the Turks the best siege unit in the game (good if their UHV requires them to take a number of strong, heavily defended cities in hills), and they'll have a number of productive cities to draw armies (or draft) from.
Does that work for everyone else?
I like this proposal a lot. See above.
The AI definitely knows how to draft, although I don't think we had drafting units built into any of our civics. We might have to look at that.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
If its OK with everybody I'll incorporate the above ideas in the list and re-present it here for everybody to have a last look before it goes into the wiki. That's assuming we can code the draft idea and decide how to introduce the dragoon as another generic unit.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
OK These are the current proposals. Can everyone please check them before I enter them into the wiki?
Hitti-Litti
Deity
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Isn't Janissary the UU of the Ottomans, instead of Great Bombard? At least their UP talks about Janissaries.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I wondered that too when I wrote it but janissaries could just be the generic musketman for the Ottomans. No harm in using that art for them, is there? Unless we eventually go for 2 UUs, which was discussed some time ago. Let's leave the Great Bombard as the UU for now. They'll need it for all that conquest, I think.
EDIT Have changed that to "can draft units"
st.lucifer
King
I don't see a problem with keeping the Janissary artwork for Ottoman musketmen. We could actually use it for all Islamic civs, which would be a nice bit of flavor.
One thing with the Dutch UB - you have it replacing the levee. It's going to have the same function as a levee, but we don't have levees in the mod - so it'll replace aqueduct, with a considerably higher (3x?) build cost. Does that work for you?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
That's fine with me. Treble build cost sounds expensive. Hope it'll be powerful enough. Using the janissary art for the Ottomans is fine. Though when we get around to ethnically-diverse art for Arabia and Cordoba there is some good stuff available to cover most units. As there is for most other civs as well, I believe.
If the list is provisionally OK for you and the others, I'll put it in the wiki tomorrow.
3Miro
Deity
Turkey: Power of Conscription or Janissary (first is probably more accurate, however, more people would have heard of the second), that allows Turkey to draft units. Drafted units would be whatever the regular defense unit is (in Civ IV Archer, Longbowman, Musketman, Rifleman), Turkey would not have a Janissary unit. The Turkish UU could be something else.
Actually Janissaries were an elite formation mostly in charge of guarding the Sultan (even in his bed, Janissaries were selected to be good looking). In their initial push into the Balkans, Ottomans used conscripts from the newly conquered nations to fight against the not-yet-conquered nations and I believe that went on for some time afterwards (maybe even to Vienna). In later years, Christians were not allowed into the army (who in the Ottoman Empire in his right mind would give weapons to the Christians), and the Janissaries conscripts were relatively few in numbers (compared to the bulk of the army).
I have to look it up when the Bashibuzuk was first used. Those were dominantly Muslim.
Actually Janissaries were an elite formation mostly in charge of guarding the Sultan (even in his bed, Janissaries were selected to be good looking). In their initial push into the Balkans, Ottomans used conscripts from the newly conquered nations to fight against the not-yet-conquered nations and I believe that went on for some time afterwards (maybe even to Vienna). In later years, Christians were not allowed into the army (who in the Ottoman Empire in his right mind would give weapons to the Christians), and the Janissaries conscripts were relatively few in numbers (compared to the bulk of the army).
I have to look it up when the Bashibuzuk was first used. Those were dominantly Muslim.
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