Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[st.lucifer]

Any comments on my post (106) regarding 750 as start date for 3 Arab
states splitting from the Umayyads. Solves the Morocco problem as well?

I think what Onedreamer said was right - we don't have the open civ slots to have something like that happen. For the purposes of the mod, we're going to have the Maghreb/Iberia separate from the rest of the Middle East; while it won't always be historically accurate, the Spanish/North African caliphates were usually separate from the Middle Eastern ones.

 

[onedreamer]

Guys I'm not completely sold on all these indipendent cities, especially if they are there to prevent early expansion. In fact I suspect the contrary. Especially for the human player indipendents are no match. What about ravaging barbarian stacks to prevent early expansion ? It also makes sense historically. In 500 AD there were still migrations.

@St.Lucifer: I think Burgundy is ok as one of the starting civs. The reason is that the Burgundi were a "barbaric" civ already settled in the Bourgogne area at the time the mod starts. On the other side, "England" did not exist in 500 AD (I know that we can call it another name and have the goal of unification, but in the end it would mean everyone would have this goal, and if I had to choose between one civ that already existed in its core and one that didn't yet I would of course choose the first).

On Kiev. It seems it was built even prior to the V Century, so it could work as one of the starting civs IMO.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Guys I'm not completely sold on all these indipendent cities, especially if they are there to prevent early expansion. In fact I suspect the contrary. Especially for the human player indipendents are no match. What about ravaging barbarian stacks to prevent early expansion ? It also makes sense historically. In 500 AD there were still migrations.

Well while the independents could be said to be there to prevent expansion (give them nice defensive units at the start), a more important facet of their existence IMO is to better represent the early middle ages - nations didn't* grow by sending people out into empty terrain as western Europe had been populated since roman times and the migration age - you built your kingdom with fire, sword and diplomacy.

*Exceptions being the Slavs in the east, the Scandinavian push north and east, and the Drang nach Osten of the Germans and Liths (which only happened after the Mongol depopulations)

Also Barbarians a) wander all over the place and can end up doing silly things and b) make cutting the path between too easy and too hard more troublesome than the static independents (a tough independent means the player has to put more effort &time, a tough barbarian horde will wipe the player out) and c) lets have barbarian hordes as well

Spoiler :

Also if my suggestion for the Austrian/Hapsburg UP is taken up then we need some independents about

 

[Zipzapzup]

Good good, i think we have a base now we can work with. In my opinion we can start coding first things now, can't we? Since it is a community project i would propose that we share the work. First things we shall do is creating the civs and then let them spawn on the proposed map from st. lucifer. Guess then we can have a look at the UHVs in detail ( most parts must be easy to code thanks to rhye's work [copy and paste ] )

 

[st.lucifer]

Good good, i think we have a base now we can work with. In my opinion we can start coding first things now, can't we? Since it is a community project i would propose that we share the work. First things we shall do is creating the civs and then let them spawn on the proposed map from st. lucifer. Guess then we can have a look at the UHVs in detail ( most parts must be easy to code thanks to rhye's work [copy and paste ] )

Do you need me to finish changes to the map before doing that? Also, might it be better to put in the new resources and take out the old ones before continuing?

 

[Zipzapzup]

Ehm no not really. I think the most of the landmass won't change, we just need the coordinates of the spawning areas. Futhermore we have to edit the map anyway to balance the gameplay.

Just to coordinate it a bit, i will now go for the phyton files which let the civs spawn. If anyone wants to help me, just contact me. And yes someone has to go for the civs (which is quiet easy when you take allready existing ones, just have a look at the download area, otherwise if we want them completly newly-created its more work).

Perhaps we can organize any other way to communicate between the persons which want to work on this project, because it will be very time-consuming if we discuss every little issue in this thread.

 

[Mesix]

What about Bavaria?

 

[st.lucifer]

What about Bavaria?

Nice place. Lots of forests. Good creme.

What about it? Read the thread. Read the list. Read the rest of the work that people have put into the mod so far. Then, if you'd like to actually put forth an argument about why Bavaria should be included over any of the other civs listed here, please do so.

 

[Mesix]

I did read the thread. I saw no mention of Bavaria. Unlike Prussia, Bavaria existed in one form or another throughout the entire period proposed for this Mod. Not to mention numerous buildings and wonders that could be made from Bavarian landmarks.

 

[onedreamer]

it's too small and too near to Austria Mesix. And honestly, I am not very knowledgeable in german history, but I think that Bavaria was like most other HRE member state though among the biggest, most cultural and politically important. But it still was "only" a HRE member state, and seeing that it was an important one, I do think it should belong to Germany as a civ.

 

[onedreamer]

Well while the independents could be said to be there to prevent expansion (give them nice defensive units at the start), a more important facet of their existence IMO is to better represent the early middle ages - nations didn't* grow by sending people out into empty terrain as western Europe had been populated since roman times and the migration age - you built your kingdom with fire, sword and diplomacy.

Ok, I'm pretty much sold to the indipendent cities now
Would be nice if they have strong defenses but weak culture, so that they may eventually flip ?

To answer to your proposed list, 2 baltic cities could be
Riga - 1200
Koenigsberg - 1250

I would also like to see:

Lyon instead of Poitiers
Pisa instead of Firenze (I know, Florence is nice and all, but having Pisa would allow a better settled Romagna, and the historical war between Pisa and Genoa, plus I would finally build the Tower of Pisa in Pisa )
I added possible dates (based on foundation, which means most are at game start... or do we want them to appear in a more controlled way ?) and more indipendent cities

Spoiler :

Something in the middle of ireland (as Dublin et al should be founded by the Vikings and British) - Game Start. I couldn't find any city worth keeping in the whole timeline that wasn't founded by Vikings, actually. Can't we just leave it unsettled ?
Edinburgh/Stirling - 1000/1100
Rennes - 500
Durham - 600
Caen - 1000 (sounds a bit too late, the French civ will settle here before anyways. What about Rouen, residence of the Duke of Normandy ? 500)
Toulouse - 500
Poitiers - 500 (or Lyon, or Nimes ? 500)
Marseille - 500
Zaragoza - 500
Pamplona - 500. Or Burgos (880) ?
Valencia - 500
Bern - 1200
Something in Saxony - do you mean modern day Saxony, or the Duchy of Saxony of about 700 AD ? Because they are in completely different areas.
Prague - end of IX Century
Brno (Representing Great Moravia) - about 1100, but it was only a castle still
Danzig - 980
Novgorod - 600 ?
Kazan (if the map goes that far) - 1000
Tver - 1000 ?
Riga - 1200
Koenigsberg - 1250
Milan - 500
Pisa - 500
Naples - 500

Cherson - 500
Messina - 500
Alexandria - 500
Jerusalem - 500 (should flip to Umayyad)
Trapezus - 500
Tripoli - 500

 

[jessiecat]

Ok, I'm pretty much sold to the indipendent cities now
Would be nice if they have strong defenses but weak culture, so that they may eventually flip ?

To answer to your proposed list, 2 baltic cities could be
Riga - 1200
Koenigsberg - 1250

I would also like to see:

Lyon instead of Poitiers
Pisa instead of Firenze (I know, Florence is nice and all, but having Pisa would allow a better settled Romagna, and the historical war between Pisa and Genoa, plus I would finally build the Tower of Pisa in Pisa )
I added possible dates (based on foundation, which means most are at game start... or do we want them to appear in a more controlled way ?) and more indipendent cities

Spoiler :

Something in the middle of ireland (as Dublin et al should be founded by the Vikings and British) - Game Start. I couldn't find any city worth keeping in the whole timeline that wasn't founded by Vikings, actually. Can't we just leave it unsettled ?
Edinburgh/Stirling - 1000/1100
Rennes - 500
Durham - 600
Caen - 1000 (sounds a bit too late, the French civ will settle here before anyways. What about Rouen, residence of the Duke of Normandy ? 500)
Toulouse - 500
Poitiers - 500 (or Lyon, or Nimes ? 500)
Marseille - 500
Zaragoza - 500
Pamplona - 500. Or Burgos (880) ?
Valencia - 500
Bern - 1200
Something in Saxony - do you mean modern day Saxony, or the Duchy of Saxony of about 700 AD ? Because they are in completely different areas.
Prague - end of IX Century
Brno (Representing Great Moravia) - about 1100, but it was only a castle still
Danzig - 980
Novgorod - 600 ?
Kazan (if the map goes that far) - 1000
Tver - 1000 ?
Riga - 1200
Koenigsberg - 1250
Milan - 500
Pisa - 500
Naples - 500

Cherson - 500
Messina - 500
Alexandria - 500
Jerusalem - 500 (should flip to Umayyad)
Trapezus - 500
Tripoli - 500

Assuming this includes a list of independent Iberian cities in 500AD,
I think they should include:
Pamplona
Toledo(Visigoth capitol)
Zaragoza
Badajoz
Lisbon
Valencia
Cordoba
Cartagena
Seville
Malaga
Cadiz

All of these were present in 500 and were basically ruled
by the Visigoths and all were conquered by the Arabs between
711 and 720. Only Pamplona would flip to the Christians after 720.
OK?

 

[Zipzapzup]

Hm if we are going to include that much independents i think we have to create one or two more independent civs, because otherwise they will be to mighty in the beginning.

 

[jessiecat]

Hm if we are going to include that much independents i think we have to create one or two more independent civs, because otherwise they will be to mighty in the beginning.

Take your point, but an area the size of Spain and Portugal (bigger than
France) is going to need ten cities at least to take account of Christian
states in the north becoming Leon, (poss. 2 or 3), Portugal (2?) and enough
in the rest of the peninsula to guarantee the start of Al Andalus early on.
It's not as if there weren't cities already there in the Roman and Visigothic
period. There were even more than that. I haven't even mentioned
Barcelona and Tarragona becoming independant after the collapse of
Charlemagne's empire, either. Counting them, 10 or 12 is minimum.

BTW Your point about independent civs is a good one. Most of those mentioned
were ruled by the Visigoths from 500 to 711. There's one ind. civ. right?

 

[Zipzapzup]

The problem is that the independents as they exist in rfc are normal civs with research, production and culture, so if they own many cities it will be very hard for the playable civs to beat them. So we have to split the cities up to more independent civs so they dont become to mighty. On the other hand its also possible to include the visigothic as a minor civ like its done with the celts in rfc.

btw in rfc we have 27 civs, in rfc europe we have only 23 by now.

Edit: One more thing, can you please have a look at the map and tell me where to put all those cities?

 

[Disenfrancised]

The problem is that the independents as they exist in rfc are normal civs with research, production and culture, so if they own many cities it will be very hard for the playable civs to beat them. So we have to split the cities up to more independent civs so they dont become to mighty. On the other hand its also possible to include the visigothic as a minor civ like its done with the celts in rfc.

btw in rfc we have 27 civs, in rfc europe we have only 23 by now.

Edit: One more thing, can you please have a look at the map and tell me where to put all those cities?

Western European Independents, Central European Independents, and Eastern Independents perhaps? (Would also allow different tech stages for the three - which could be nice)

 

[jessiecat]

The problem is that the independents as they exist in rfc are normal civs with research, production and culture, so if they own many cities it will be very hard for the playable civs to beat them. So we have to split the cities up to more independent civs so they dont become to mighty. On the other hand its also possible to include the visigothic as a minor civ like its done with the celts in rfc.

btw in rfc we have 27 civs, in rfc europe we have only 23 by now.

Edit: One more thing, can you please have a look at the map and tell me where to put all those cities?

Where's the map? Didn't know it was done. Can you post a screenshot?
With zoom if poss.?

 

[jessiecat]

Western European Independents, Central European Independents, and Eastern Independents perhaps? (Would also allow different tech stages for the three - which could be nice)

When you say "independents", do you mean independent cities or independent
civs or both, as in RFC? If so, the Visigoths could start in Iberia as an
independent civ., while Berber indep. cities in Morocco be conquered by the
arrival of an Arab army, just like what happens with the Ottomans in RFC.

I remember something similiar happening in the Civ2 scenario "The Crescent
and the Sword"?. At the start you've this mass of horsemen swarming westward
through the independent(barbarian) cities of North Africa right up to Tangier.
So, after conquering Morocco, in this mod, they'd consolidate before taking
on independent Visigoth Spain. Would that work?

 

[Depravo]

If it's to start in 500, you could have a Gothic non-player civ controlling most of Spain, Italy and southern France, analagous to RFC's Celts.

 

[st.lucifer]

Where's the map? Didn't know it was done. Can you post a screenshot?
With zoom if poss.?

Once again, the map has its own thread - there's an attached file which unzips into a WorldBuilderSave. Open it up, start a game, open worldbuilder, and that'll show you everything - including tags for civ starting locations and possible independents (although many of those will have to be redone now, which is fine.)

11 independent cities in Iberia is a lot. Granted, there were lots of existing cities in Iberia at the time, but the same can be said of many areas of Europe, and some of the ones that you mention are relatively minor. Can we eliminate Badajoz, Malaga, Cartagena, and Cadiz, at least, and possibly Pamplona or Zaragosa? I'm ok with having that many cities if we're disabling settlers, but that idea has not been received well. I'd rather we focus on a few strong independent cities than a constellation of smaller and weaker ones which leave no open space.

I'd also favor adding Barcelona and possibly Narbonne. That crescent of land between the Pyrenees and Central Massif was generally independent.