Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[Verily]

There's been discussion that a lot of the UHVs are really easy. I thought I'd test out my own variant of the English UHV to see if it was possible; it was not only possible but downright easy. (At least, on Monarch, it's just after 1500, and I'm Very Solid and outteching everyone although I just started to pull away.)

So, for the first English UHV:

Control (you have at least one city and no one else does) the British Isles, Normandy, Brittany, Aquitaine and Ile-de-France in 1500 (not 1600).

The definitions of Normandy, Brittany, Aquitaine and Ile-de-France are on the map below. People have been complaining about the English game being boring; in this model, you get a nice, long war with France and some pretty heavy obligations on the continent that can't just be abandoned through liberation once you've gotten the UHV. Also, 1450 wouldn't be particularly hard for a date, either, and it would be a bit more accurate historically per the Hundred Years War.

Also, it might be a good idea to separate out Scotland and Ireland. Right now, you don't need to control any cities in either for the UHV, you just need to raze the cities that are already there (although why you would is beyond me).

 

[Tigranes]

I read the post with RFCE suggestions.
***
The Papal State and the HRE need a lot of improvement. They will require a lot of thought. For one I don't think adding a HRE player makes sense, we have no place to put him on the map. I think we should make it so that any Catholic player can become HRE i some way or another.

Under HRE I meant Germany renamed, no analogies with Charlemagne scenario. I guess what I really want to ask is this -- is it possible to code human player to start as a vassal? HRE-Germany could have a UHV -- found Protestantism and break away from the Rome. Would be really fun to be AIs vassal.

 

[Tigranes]

If Arabia found themselves at war with every Catholic nation in the world, that would harm their stability a lot.

I see... But still, won't you agree that if you chose to crusade you need to face some consequences? Risk something to win something. How about to erase one unit from you and create the same unit under walls of Jerusalem under the ownership of the crusade's leader? Imagine Spanish Paladin If Jerusalem is captured every nation who contributed a unit could get Relic resource (as long as Jerusalem is Catholic). And if your unit survived - you get some cash. We could make it like Mercenary mode has it, with the possibility to recall the crusading unit back home.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Maybe there could be a non-playable faction called "Crusading Faction" or something, now when there's a crusade some civs could "sell" their units just like mercenaries and the "Crusading Faction" could be coded to hire all these units and they'll be coded to spawn next to Jerusalem. Now if all these units manage to take Jerusalem the crusading faction should keep them and thus the civs which hired them out will receive gpt. Also the crusading faction should get some relic resources so it could trade around with other catholic civs (they shouldn't be able to talk with non-catholic nations).

 

[sedna17]

So, for the first English UHV:

Control (you have at least one city and no one else does) the British Isles, Normandy, Brittany, Aquitaine and Ile-de-France in 1500 (not 1600).

Sounds pretty good to me. I was just adjusting the behavior of the Scottish and Welsh barbarians, so I'll have to play a test game to see how that all plays out if you want to meet the goals by 1450. I'm also thinking of increasing the English spawn area to give them the possibility of a second city in Normany (mainly in case Calais gets raised, but also because Calais is so devoured by Paris' culture that it's annoying). That will make things a little easier for the English, but it will further encourage AI-AI French-English wars, and allows me to eliminate the production/tech penalties which France is lingering under without making them too powerful.

 

[merijn_v1]

Maybe the HRE could be a Wonder like the Apostolic Palace. Only catholic civs can build it and it does the same thing as the old Palace. (like signing OB with all members) The leader of the HRE is the leader of the Crusades and maybe gets a stability bonus and a better relation with the Pope. This way we have a HRE and a wonder with (almost) the same power as the Apostolic Palace. So what are your opinions?

 

[merijn_v1]

There's been discussion that a lot of the UHVs are really easy. I thought I'd test out my own variant of the English UHV to see if it was possible; it was not only possible but downright easy. (At least, on Monarch, it's just after 1500, and I'm Very Solid and outteching everyone although I just started to pull away.)

So, for the first English UHV:

Control (you have at least one city and no one else does) the British Isles, Normandy, Brittany, Aquitaine and Ile-de-France in 1500 (not 1600).

The definitions of Normandy, Brittany, Aquitaine and Ile-de-France are on the map below. People have been complaining about the English game being boring; in this model, you get a nice, long war with France and some pretty heavy obligations on the continent that can't just be abandoned through liberation once you've gotten the UHV. Also, 1450 wouldn't be particularly hard for a date, either, and it would be a bit more accurate historically per the Hundred Years War.

Also, it might be a good idea to separate out Scotland and Ireland. Right now, you don't need to control any cities in either for the UHV, you just need to raze the cities that are already there (although why you would is beyond me).

I like the idea. But with all those area, Frankia will definitly collapse. Especially if you have Paris (Ile-de-France). So I propose only Normandy and Brittany. Aquitaine is to far away in my opinion.

 

[sedna17]

I like the idea. But with all those area, Frankia will definitly collapse. Especially if you have Paris (Ile-de-France). So I propose only Normandy and Brittany. Aquitaine is to far away in my opinion.

That sounds too easy, though I confess I don't know until I try it. Just Normandy and Brittany means you probably only need one extra city above what you currently need -- and in an area where France rarely contests.

Does it matter if the English human player collapses France en route to a UHV?

 

[Verily]

That sounds too easy, though I confess I don't know until I try it. Just Normandy and Brittany means you probably only need one extra city above what you currently need -- and in an area where France rarely contests.

Does it matter if the English human player collapses France en route to a UHV?

That was kind of the point, actually. England should want to collapse France and control it. They claimed the throne of France for centuries, and the French fleur-de-lys representing their claim is still in the British royal insignia. I just thought any further than the areas I suggested would be a bit much (might not be possible/reasonable by 1500) and would usually require war with Burgundy or even sometimes Genoa or Spain. Aquitaine is not "too far"--like I said, it was not just possible but pretty easy. Began my invasion around 1350 and controlled it all by 1420, although I had to send some forces to Ireland to take Dublin before 1500 (could have been much more efficient with my time; I built a lot more troops than I needed).

France has to collapse Burgundy for their UHV. Austria has to collapse Hungary. Spain and Cordoba have to collapse each other. The Ottomans have to collapse the Byzantines, the Arabs, the Austrians, the Hungarians and the Bulgarians. Collapsing France for the UHV is no big deal, and it tends to help Burgundy and make them a pretty significant rival and threat.

 

[Verily]

Sounds pretty good to me. I was just adjusting the behavior of the Scottish and Welsh barbarians, so I'll have to play a test game to see how that all plays out if you want to meet the goals by 1450. I'm also thinking of increasing the English spawn area to give them the possibility of a second city in Normany (mainly in case Calais gets raised, but also because Calais is so devoured by Paris' culture that it's annoying). That will make things a little easier for the English, but it will further encourage AI-AI French-English wars, and allows me to eliminate the production/tech penalties which France is lingering under without making them too powerful.

I think you could just take independent Calais out entirely. In my test game, it had been razed before I spawned, and France had built Bolougne nearby (which didn't flip). The lack of a flip in France didn't cause any trouble for completing my suggested UHV. And really the existence of English Calais doesn't stimulate much conflict between AI France and AI England. Maybe if England got all of Normandy in its flip zone, but that would life way too easy for humans playing the English.

 

[sedna17]

I think you could just take independent Calais out entirely. In my test game, it had been razed before I spawned, and France had built Bolougne nearby (which didn't flip). The lack of a flip in France didn't cause any trouble for completing my suggested UHV. And really the existence of English Calais doesn't stimulate much conflict between AI France and AI England. Maybe if England got all of Normandy in its flip zone, but that would life way too easy for humans playing the English.

I really want to encourage English/French wars, but I think the English really need at least one or two cities on the continent in order to stimulate any conflict between them and the French when controlled by the AI. I would be fine giving them most of Normandy in their spawn zone. This is historically accurate; a lot of the early English kings spent most of their time in their French possessions in Normandy. To keep it challenging for the humans, I think increasing the threat from Scotland to force the English to keep a strong military presence there would work (as well as being fun and historical).

 

[sedna17]

So I tuned up the barb difficulty in Scotland and increased the English spawn area to include most of Normandy.

As luck would have it, I still only got Calais on flip because France happened not to settle the rest of Normandy. I pacified Wales and built a strong castle in York and then forgot about the Scots, who periodically send stacks down to die on the walls of York (one time they made a beeline straight for my Welsh Iron, which was a bit disconcerting). Unfortunately, both the French and the Burgundians declared war on me, and starting attacking Calais -- so much for any help in the Hundred Year's War. Spain declared war on me too, and actually attacked me from their settlement in the Spanish Netherlands (that worked well this time).

It's about 1215 now and unlike King John, I am finally winning the war in France. My English cities are developed enough to churn out plenty of troops, and I will soon take Paris -- my first conquered French city. If France collapses and I can get peace with Burgundy or Spain then I will make 1450 easily. If I have to deal Burgundy a military loss before they will see reason and make peace... then things could turn into a very long and ugly slog. Yay, history?

P.S. Here's the new English UHV as I currently have it coded based on Verily's suggestions.

 

[jessiecat]

Does the new UHV require that you actually have a city in Scotland and in Wales? In previous games I've found that the barb stack turtles in Northern Scotland and never attacks a strong Edinburgh with a strong castle and a few arbelests. I think I counted over 50 of them just sitting there once. And how does all this military conquest affect your tech rate? Surely being first to the Industrial Revolution is going to a bit harder now.

 

[jessiecat]

Does the new UHV require that you actually have a city in Scotland and in Wales? In previous games I've found that the barb stack turtles in Northern Scotland and never attacks a strong Edinburgh with a strong castle and a few arbelests. I think I counted over 50 of them just sitting there once. And how does all this military conquest affect your tech rate? Surely being first to the Industrial Revolution is going to a bit harder now.

BTW. My UHV proposed changes are currently in a separate file in the RFCE folder. Will the rest of the UHV conditions for each civ be altered in the next version?

 

[sedna17]

Does the new UHV require that you actually have a city in Scotland and in Wales? In previous games I've found that the barb stack turtles in Northern Scotland and never attacks a strong Edinburgh with a strong castle and a few arbelests. I think I counted over 50 of them just sitting there once. And how does all this military conquest affect your tech rate? Surely being first to the Industrial Revolution is going to a bit harder now.

Yes, you must have a city in Wales and Scotland. I might make "Wales" extend one more tile south, just so people don't accidentally settle just outside. The barbs turtling in Scotland was really a bug with setting the initial AI for those barbs. It is now fixed, so they will be more aggressive.

BTW. My UHV proposed changes are currently in a separate file in the RFCE folder. Will the rest of the UHV conditions for each civ be altered in the next version?

Short answer: no. I put that file there so people (me included) had it as a handy reference for testing some of these UHVs. New UHVs take a little time to code/document/test. I prefer to have some play-test reports for some of these before going through all that -- although in the case of just adjusting the years on a UHV it's obviously quite easy and quick to make the change. Probably the next version will include just a few more Civs with new UHVs.

 

[Verily]

Does the new UHV require that you actually have a city in Scotland and in Wales? In previous games I've found that the barb stack turtles in Northern Scotland and never attacks a strong Edinburgh with a strong castle and a few arbelests. I think I counted over 50 of them just sitting there once. And how does all this military conquest affect your tech rate? Surely being first to the Industrial Revolution is going to a bit harder now.

Not so much. You fall behind early on, but the French territories end up being a major economic boon later on. In my game, I reached the Industrial Revolution around 1720, still significantly abreast of my nearest competitor (Austria, unusual in itself, but Poland had maybe grown too large with expanding into ex-Moscow to tech quickly).

 

[jessiecat]

Yes, you must have a city in Wales and Scotland. I might make "Wales" extend one more tile south, just so people don't accidentally settle just outside. The barbs turtling in Scotland was really a bug with setting the initial AI for those barbs. It is now fixed, so they will be more aggressive.

Funny thing about those barbs. When I started a game today as England, the barbs captured Edinburgh from the Norse before I got the chance. When I did take it later it only had 2 guisarmes in it. After that not a single barb appeared for the rest of the game. Figure that one out.

 

[sedna17]

Right, so I hope to release a new test version tomorrow.

I've experimented with putting Spain back to a 1085 AD start and expanding their spawn zone a bit, and I like it. Here's how things go down as of now:

Cordoba rises (711). Capitol at Cordoba, flips Tangier+Valencia and has two more settlers. Normally flips some barb axemen as well, this sets up a pretty powerful Caliphate of Cordoba.

Toledo spawns just before Cordoba. The northern Christian kingdoms spawn about the same time: Leon {Leon}, Santiago de Compostela (or La Coruna) {Galicia}, Burgos {Castilla}, Zaragoza {Aragon}. These are mostly all the same group indies, so if you attack one, you attack them all. I know the Christian kingdoms squabbled amongst themselves, but obviously these are weak indies and need all the help they can get. There's not a lot of incentive to attack them right now, except Toledo now encroaches a bit more on Cordoba, and you need to keep that barley for the first UHV.

Spain spawns in 1085, centered at Madrid (we can make room by moving Toledo a little West and South), and acquiring Leon, Burgos, and Toledo but not Zaragoza/Coruna. Stability penalty for neighbors rising has been increased, so the combination of Spain/Portugal in quick succession hurts Cordoba.

I've played the Cordoban side to about 1300. The new UHVs are coded as:

1) Cordoba largest city in 1000 AD
2) Build Alhambra, Mezquita, Gardens of Al-Andalus.
3) Don't lose a city to Spain/Portugal before 1500 AD.

1) plays about the same (i.e. reasonably challenging but quite doable). 2) I just *barely* missed, when the Arabs beat me to La Mezquita by two turns, so that's quite possible. 3) is probably easy for the humans to fulfill, but Spain starts off with some better firepower now, so they almost took Valencia from me in their first war.

 

[micbic]

I totally agree with the new model, one point: When does Portugal spawn (original date?) ?

 

[sedna17]

Currently Portugal still spawns at the same date.