Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[Michael Vick]

Now we need Jessiecat to agree, and we also need Sedna to show his face for once...
so he can approve of this and maybe put it in the next version.

 

[sedna17]

Now we need Jessiecat to agree, and we also need Sedna to show his face for once...
so he can approve of this and maybe put it in the next version.

Despite your involvement in this plan, it may have some merit

I'll plan to put a 910 start along these lines in the next version for people to try out (unless Jessiecat protests too much). I predict the Spanish AI will have much the same difficulty in collapsing Cordoba.

Briefly, the main objections to the 1085 start are:
1) It's too easy/quick for the human collapse Cordoba. This is not a negative point historically. The collapse of the Caliphate in 1031 is nicely modeled in RFC by collapsing into independent cities. The problem is that indies are rather weak, so the rest of the reconquest is not very exciting for the human to play.
2) Too many cities flip on spawn. I agree, this is not ideal. The 910 start solves this, but it could alternatively be improved in the 1085 start.
3) Cordoba can weaken Spain by destroying the northern independents and possibly launch a direct attack on Spain's spawn point, killing them. Actually, this is rather hard to achieve while also getting the UHVs (at least if the indies are made a little buffer).

In RFC Civs respawn in a different box than they spawn originally. Up until now, we hadn't coded non-overlapping respawn zones, so we had respawns happen in the starting spawn box. I've fixed this now, so respawns can/will happen in a different zone. A couple examples of this: England re-spawns just in Great Britain (no France territories), Cordoba re-spawns mostly in North Africa with just a small slice of southern Spain to represent the Almoravids/Almohads, Byzantium re-spawns just in Greece.

Coupling this with date-specific probabilities to re-spawn (as has been suggested, although not yet implemented), and you get a little more flexibility to "re-use" civs.

So, my vision for Iberia would be to keep Cordoban stability rather low, so that Cordoba collapses into independent Muslim cities around the time Portugal rises (whether Spain comes just before this or not). Spain can take over these indy cities, but watch out -- if you over-extend yourself you'll get Cordoba re-rising and snagging some of your southern possessions. Of course, a human playing Cordoba can be much more focused on stability/defense and survive the rising Christian tide.

 

[Michael Vick]

Maybe the 1080 start COULD be saved, but I'm remembering now that was your idea. Thus, it should be scrapped.
Just kidding, I think the 1080 start is impossible because of the issue of where the capitol would be.

I'm actually very glad Samsa brought this idea up, I think it's a perfect spawn time for Spain. The 910 start simplifies the spawn situation, less outrageous flip zones, not as many units, and the player gets to time to build a little and get organized before the taking the first major steps of the reconquista. Give your modder's stamp of approval and I'll work on providing a screenshot to finalize the issue.

 

[sedna17]

I think you and Samsa have already provided the outlines of a 910 start. If you want to make more detailed recommendations, feel free -- but I'm not necessarily going to implement every little detail the way you suggest, so it's your decision if it's worth your time.

 

[Michael Vick]

I guess we have, well then...

The most important changes for the next version in Iberia are
- A 910 start, as described,
-Cities positioned in new places, as described in older posts,
-Even though we're not going for the later start I think we should still include the cities from the other Christian Kingdoms - Pamplona(Navarre), Zaragoza(Aragon), have them spawn with Christianity, again, don't have them flip to Spain.
-Fix this problem where I can't build the Gardens of Al-Andalus on the granada tile.
-Eliminate Burgos from the picture

 

[jessiecat]

For what its worth, I'd rather we just returned to the 720 start much as before. It seems the best to me despite all the debates about alternatives. BTW Why is it so important to build the Gardens in Granada? Just because of the picture? In fact why should a specific wonder need to be built in its historic location anyway? Historical prettiness? It's just a name. Does San Marco always have to be built in Venice or Notre Dame in Paris? Does it really matter at all in gameplay?

EDIT @Sedna. I only protested because the 1085 start with too many cities turned out so badly. As I clearly demonstrated it was just too easy to collapse the other as Spain or Cordoba. So the 910 start with only a couple of cities might work much better. I'll wait and see how it play-tests before forming an opinion. One point though. I hope Cordoba just doesn't start unstable and stays that way. That might end up as unplayable as well as totally unhistoric. Can't we just code in instability from the Portugese spawn date instead?

 

[Michael Vick]

No, but I go for the "historic prettiness" sometimes. I was just wondering, do the gardens in this mod require river access?

 

[jessiecat]

No, but I go for the "historic prettiness" sometimes. I was just wondering, do the gardens in this mod require river access?

No, it doesn't. And yes I sometimes go for "historical prettiness" myself sometimes. I just finished a UHV victory as Venice where I built Marco Polos Embassy, the San Marco Basilica and Leonardos Inventions all in Venice with the Medici Bank built in Florence. Very satisfying.
BTW As I said in the edited post above, I would support a 910 start as long there are only a couple of indy cities and Cordoba isn't unstable from the beginning but gets unstable after Portugal spawns.

 

[Michael Vick]

Well I know that you sometimes play as Cordoba so next time you do try going for some "historic prettiness" and build the gardens in Granada. See if you can tell me what the problem is.

 

[sedna17]

Actually, I think the gardens probably require fresh water. The code was copied over from the Hanging Gardens, so up until the last version or so it required an aqueduct, which was impossibly late in our game. So I changed that, but didn't necessarily change fresh water tag. And I probably won't.

 

[civmademepoor]

If I may, I think while it not be ideal or likely to build the Gardens in Granada, it should certainly be possible.

The historian in me pushes me away from a certain Spanish Iberia. Until 1400 Spain should be trying its utmost to kill Cordoba. When I play Spain, seeing Cordoba collapse is both satisfying as the player, but soul-crushing (ok, I exaggerate) as the historian. The capture of Seville and Cordoba should not mean that the other Cordoban cities become independent. While that may be accurate for a chunk of Moorish history strictly speaking, Spain needs intelligent, even if it's AI, opposition to the Catholic conquest of Iberia.

FWIW, I prefer an earlier to a later start for Spain, but it should stay the hell out of France until it controls Iberia.

 

[onedreamer]

Just wondering if you know of this mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=271162

 

[sedna17]

The historian in me pushes me away from a certain Spanish Iberia. Until 1400 Spain should be trying its utmost to kill Cordoba. When I play Spain, seeing Cordoba collapse is both satisfying as the player, but soul-crushing (ok, I exaggerate) as the historian. The capture of Seville and Cordoba should not mean that the other Cordoban cities become independent. While that may be accurate for a chunk of Moorish history strictly speaking, Spain needs intelligent, even if it's AI, opposition to the Catholic conquest of Iberia.

But the human is always going to be able to collapse Cordoba way ahead of "schedule" if they wish to focus on it. I'm sure that, from the 720 AD start, someone like AnotherPacifist could collapse Cordoba well before 1000 AD -- at least starting in 1085 we know the human won't be able to collapse Cordoba before that! The fact of the matter is, the AI is bad at war, and the human is good. Couple that with the fact that in RFC, taking a few cities (particularly if one the capitol) is almost always enough to collapse someone...

If we want the human to not collapse Cordoba early, there are a couple of options: 1) use barbarians (not sure what would be historically appropriate and geographically possible 2) Give a first UHV that is completely at odds with conquering Cordoba quickly.

 

[Michael Vick]

Actually, I think the gardens probably require fresh water. The code was copied over from the Hanging Gardens, so up until the last version or so it required an aqueduct, which was impossibly late in our game. So I changed that, but didn't necessarily change fresh water tag. And I probably won't.

But if the Gardens are IN Granada it should be possible to build them. I understand not guaranteeing historical accuracy but denying it? Could you please change the fresh water tag?

 

[jessiecat]

But if the Gardens are IN Granada it should be possible to build them. I understand not guaranteeing historical accuracy but denying it? Could you please change the fresh water tag?

I think you're mistaken. As the person who suggested the Gardens of Al Andalus in the first place I can tell you it is NOT supposed to represent the Generalife Gardens near the Alhambra in Granada. Did you assume that? Just because the picture comes from there it doesn't mean those gardens at all.
What the wonder is supposed to represent is the Muslim Agricultural Revolution in Al Andalus in the 9th-10thC where great advances in agronomy and irrigation helped transform the region into one of great fertility and high yield cropping which introduced many new fruits and vegetables to Europe. Like citrus fruits, pomegranates, aubergine, courgettes, etc. etc. etc. If you have travelled through Andalusia recently you will have noticed their vast irrigation networks which still exist today.
It certainly never meant anything to do with Granada itself nor is there any reason at all that it should be built in that city. Sorry, but you seem to have completely misunderstood what the wonder is supposed to be.

 

[ZachScape]

Just a minor text bug:

In the Krak des Chevaliers pedia, it says:
Free walls and castle in very conquered city.

 

[Michael Vick]

Ohhh, well I thought it was refering to the Palacio de Generalife because of the picture when you build it, that's the same picture on wikipedia for it. Haha sorry.

Anyway, are we gonna do the 910 start next version?

 

[ZachScape]

I think if a 910 amounts for a big deal, you might as well go for a 1800 start version. But just you may want to stick with the same units and buildings as does Rhye's 600 start (so I doubt this post won't be relevant for months, if not ever) But a 1800 could lead through to the 21st century, but that seems like a major project, but it's not without reason.
3 'World Wars' within a 200 year period, along with a variety of options for spawns. Off the top of my mind, I see the main ones as Italy and Germany first and foremost. With Netherlands, Ireland, Poland, Serbia, Greece, Ukraine, Belarus, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland, and Baltics. With starters of Britain, France, Russia, Portugal, Austria, Spain, Scandinavia, and the Ottoman Empire.

But this seems like too much of a big deal now that I type it out. Brand new Units, coding, empires, forget about it.

 

[The Turk]

Hi, everyone, this my first post in a while, and I was wondering how this mod is coming along and if you guys finally have your first release and if not how soon will it be done? Love your work!

 

[Michael Vick]

I think if a 910 amounts for a big deal, you might as well go for a 1800 start version. But just you may want to stick with the same units and buildings as does Rhye's 600 start (so I doubt this post won't be relevant for months, if not ever) But a 1800 could lead through to the 21st century, but that seems like a major project, but it's not without reason.
3 'World Wars' within a 200 year period, along with a variety of options for spawns. Off the top of my mind, I see the main ones as Italy and Germany first and foremost. With Netherlands, Ireland, Poland, Serbia, Greece, Ukraine, Belarus, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland, and Baltics. With starters of Britain, France, Russia, Portugal, Austria, Spain, Scandinavia, and the Ottoman Empire.

But this seems like too much of a big deal now that I type it out. Brand new Units, coding, empires, forget about it.

I meant for Spain. Spain will spawn in 910 AD. Did you read any of the earlier posts? I agree that starting the mod at 910 is insane and ridiculous... haha
@The Turk, go to the thread called RFCEurope Files, it's the very second post in the thread. I recommend England.