Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[3Miro]

The only one that I can see as problematic is Portugal. Do you mean that they found 6 cities on the West African coast and the Azores. There is really nothing of value there, 6 cities is too much (and fewer could be too little). We can make the goal to be one Catholic cathedral, since there is no room for 4 cities in Iberia, they will have to expand outside (or maybe 6 monasteries, but total of 6 cities outside seems like too much).

 

[Wessel V1]

I share AP's complaints, but I don't necessarily think that RFCE is "worse" than RFC for this reason. Both use a very different method of making the game enjoyable: RFC gives you the idea of the crowded and rivalry between civs, while RFCE gives true empires. I enjoy both games, and the beautiful thing is that when I have the feeling that I've become bored of RFC, I can enjoy RFCE and the other way round. I do think though that UHVs come too late in general. If I want to continue playing after the UHV, I can try to win a score victory or a cultural victory. Besides, I only have 1 GB of RAM which is not much, but it is more than the minimum for Civ and I think that we should not make our game much heavier than these specifications. And, I think that AP is right when he says that there should be more "unique" UHVs. Challenges like 'the earliest possible UHV' can currently not exist in RFCE, and virtual victories would come suprisingly early. The fact that you have to survive to win is not very appealing to me IMO (to be continued, have to go now!)

 

[BurnEmDown]

I think the "by" critera for some UHVs won't slow down the game. For example in RFC Rome has a UHV: Build 5 amphitheaters, barracks, and aqueducts by 150AD, now the game doesn't check every turn to see if the player completed it, and it doesn't check in 150AD either, it checks only once the player finished his final building if the year 150AD has passed, and if not, the player gets the UHV (so it is possible to finish the UHV by say 100 AD, lose some buildings up until 150 AD and still get the UHV).

 

[The Turk]

I think there should be more indy cities at the start of the game. I put them as landmarks on the map, as well as with Roman spellings of the cities that are already there. Most of these I think should be in the game from the the get-go, no spawning in 600 or 700. Among these are cities like Durocortorum (Reims) and Lugdunum (Lyon), I think France and Burgundy should each get an extra on the flip now that their infrastructure has a bit of a jumpstart with these roads. A city I forgot to put in is Brigantium(La Coruna), placed at the end of the road in Galicia. Also not included is Tingi, on the Northern tip of Morocco. These extra cities will give the early game a more crowded feel, which there should be IMO, because it's Europe.

I coulden't agree more! There is a definet lack of cities in North Africa and in Europe, which means that most of the time a Civilizations spawn zone (other than Arabia, Ottomons) won't get any other cities. There really is a chronic needing of extra cities in this mod

 

[jessiecat]

The only one that I can see as problematic is Portugal. Do you mean that they found 6 cities on the West African coast and the Azores. There is really nothing of value there, 6 cities is too much (and fewer could be too little). We can make the goal to be one Catholic cathedral, since there is no room for 4 cities in Iberia, they will have to expand outside (or maybe 6 monasteries, but total of 6 cities outside seems like too much).

I think the Portugal idea came from Michael Vic who was keen on them settling the Azores, Madeira etc. And there are at least 2 decent sites SW of Tangier on the coast anyway. But one cathedral and 6 monasteries would accomplish much of that anyway. Let's go with that instead.
So can we try the new dates as suggested? If some turn out too hard we can relax them in the next version. Yes?

 

[Michael Vick]

On the Portugal UHV:
It was I who suggested that Portugal settle the islands and Morocco, but with a different wording. I said "In 1500/1560, control the Azores, Madeiras, and Western Sahara."
This implies something completely different from the other idea. "West of Iberia" rules out Tanger and Casa Branca, which were Portuguese colonies. With my wording, depending on Cordoba's expansion, Portugal might only have to build 3 cities, but this implies getting the carrack and getting to the islands which might be challenging for the AI in 1500.

On Spain:
The first UHV should remain at 1600, this is a perfect date because it is situated right in the middle of the period of the union between Spain and Portugal. (1560-1640) If it must be made earlier, I say 1560.
The second UHV should be either made the same date or merged with the first UHV. The Spain game is ridiculously easy right now, and it entails waiting around and doing nothing for much of the 1500's. Really, think of what the second UHV involves, building about three inquisitors for Cordoba, Cadiz, and Valencia and sometimes a stray Jewish faction in some other city. This, and praying dearly that Portugal doesn't go Protestant. Combining the first and second UHV's makes more sense.
The third UHV needs to be different. Not 3, not 5 either. How about: Control the Caribbean, Central and South America in 1640. Obviously this would only work with the new list of colonies. Spain would have to build the colonies fast, and not allow France and England to get their piece of the pie until the late game. (Historical)
UHV1... Unite Iberia under Spain and Catholicism in 1560AD.
UHV2... Spread Catholicism to __%/Control 8 Gold/Silver resources by 1600AD
UHV3... Control the Caribbean, Central and South America in 1640AD/ Have more colonial projects than the English, French, and Dutch UNTIL 1700 AD.

I suggest changing the English colonial UHV to: Have the largest colonial empire in 1760, OR 1800.

All the other colonial UHV's should be changed to 5, 6 if the new list is added.

What do you think of the Roman Roads? 3Miro, is there any way we can use those old cobbled roads from the Charlemagne mod?

 

[3Miro]

6 cities would require the Portugal gets something outside of Iberia (obvious choices are Africa and the Arozes). That way we combine culture and some colonialism.

About half of the world will be Catholic in the beginning, making the % requirement for Catholicism easy. You can force a later day, which would require that Spain goes on some sort of a Crusade trough out Europe to purge Protestants. I am not sure if it will work, we can try, it may force the player to conquer England (but the battle at Trafalgar comes in 1805, too late for our mod).

Silver and gold overlaps with the colonial UHVs.

When the new colonies are included, all colonial UHVs will be updated. Also the number of resources per colony will go down.

For the British, how about be the larges colonial empire at some point of time. That is, you win if you are the first to get a colony (i.e. beat the Portuguese and Spanish to the new world). Also, if at some point you get ahead, then you get the UHV? Maybe not a good idea. My only problem with 1760 is that it comes late.

We can build roads, but I am against making them "Rail Roads" The movement shouldn't be different then the one on the regular roads. (or if the regular roads are 1/2, then make those 1/3 tops).

 

[3Miro]

I coulden't agree more! There is a definet lack of cities in North Africa and in Europe, which means that most of the time a Civilizations spawn zone (other than Arabia, Ottomons) won't get any other cities. There really is a chronic needing of extra cities in this mod

At some pint there were way more cities then now and AFIK they were removed because:

1. They were slowing the game a lot.
2. (and more importantly) They reduce your choice on where you can settle.

 

[Michael Vick]

Ok, so what do you think the Portuguese UHV should be?

The second Spanish UHV could require conquering Naples, Milan, Flanders and holding them until 1700 or so. (A Catholic conquest of England! That WAS the intention up until the armada was destroyed. But 1805, rats! That would have made for a very interesting UHV! )

The English colonial UHV should be pretty late IMO. If I liked playing as the English I'd want the late game to be very significant. England's golden age was in the late 1700's, 1800's onwards, no?

I coulden't agree more! There is a definet lack of cities in North Africa and in Europe, which means that most of the time a Civilizations spawn zone (other than Arabia, Ottomons) won't get any other cities. There really is a chronic needing of extra cities in this mod

Look at this worldbuilder save, its a revised system of Roman roads, and I added some earlier cities. I had an idea, maybe instead of cities to slow the game down, the old Roman settlements could be depicted as villages strewn across Europe. Some are in the map as cities, others as villages, and I even added some locations of ruins for demolished Roman cities. The roads are there, and all names are in Latin. The result is something that looks a lot more Post-Roman.

Other Changes you might notice:
I added some gold in Southern Portugal, because, quite simply, there was lots of gold mining there. I removed parts of the old road system in Byzantium, replaced with the Roman system. Changed the silk plantations in Syria to the silk resource alone. (Why are they like that?)

City Additions:
Byzantium got Trapezus in the Northeast, it's got a larger population than the others, and has a harbor, granary and church.
Attalia in the South, West of Tarsus, it's standard size, and empty. Presumably this and Trapezus will flip to the Turks as Trabzon and Antalya?
Dyrrachium Southwest of the Balkans, larger pop, harbor, granary, church.
Byzantium got Memphis(Cairo) Maybe we could include the pyramids which will give Byzantium some much needed stability. This would flip to the Arabs.

I've come up with an idea for Byzantium. There are lots of new cities in the med sea, on the very second turn, we could have all of them flip to Byzantium. The Byzantines would get more of North Africa, Sicily, Southern Italy, Sardinia, and a slice of Southern Spain. This would simulate the conquests of Belisarius (500-565), and give Byzantium super-high stability for a while. Or, the flips could be coded to come in waves, with the territories being gained as Belisarius conquered them. This would give Byzantium even more prolonged stability. AND all the extra cities will speed up the inevitable collapse which will happen at around 700/800 with this system.

The rest of the cities added are pretty much self explanatory, you can figure out what they are by the names.

EDIT: It says invalid file, how do I upload a worldbuilder save?

 

[jessiecat]

A few comments about the issues you raised.
1. I think the idea of 1 cathedral plus 6 monasteries means that Portugal would have to build 3-4 cities outside of Iberia (1 or 2 in W. Africa, 1 or 2 on the islands). That seems a fair balance to me.
2. I agree the first 2 Spanish UHVs could combine in about 1600. The 2nd. could be have 3-4 cities in Italy, Sicily, N. Africa by 1700. How about that?
3. I agree that England's UHVs should remain late. Having to build 2 trading companies and 5 colonies while still being first to the Industrial Age will not happen very early anyway. So no UHV date is required IMO.
4. I like your Roman roads but not cobbled and I'd be wary of adding a lot more indies for the reasons 3Miro stated. The game is already getting slow enough.
5. Having a lot of Byzantine cities west of Cyrene will only mean they flip to indy due to instabilty almost immediately. We've already got Tripoli, Tunis, Alger and Tanja. We don't need more.
6. The silk plantations near Damascus are there to simulate the main terminus of the Silk Road which existed in pre-Muslim times. So the Arabs need them as tradable resources. I'd leave them just as they are.
7. If you want to post a WB save, first put in a compressed file (ie ZIP) and then post it like that. OK?

 

[Michael Vick]

1.But then Portugal might settle anywhere.
2. Yes, something like that, more like 1550, different wording though.
3. Yes, Late game for England!
4.Well they're not exactly cobbled, have you played the Charlemagne mod? Yes, I didn't really add many cites, Just villages. Do you like that idea?
5.The cities will flip to Byzantium on the next turn, causing a surge of stablity, they should then break off rather soon, as in history.
6.Ok
7. Here goes, probably did it wrong...




(Can we move Cyrene 1 tile East?, check a map)

 

[BurnEmDown]

Hey I was thinking maybe we could add like an optional UHV which will be really hard to get and also it's finish date should be very early and if completed it will give the player a golden age, so for France for example it will be control Dijon by 650AD and for England control more than 3 cities in France by XAD, and for Hungary it will be conquer Bulgaria by XAD, so yes basically it will be about conquering but some civs which didn't conquer much would have some cool UHVs to think about, maybe Portugal's optional UHV could be to settle 2 cities in Nafrica by XAD.
So basically these UHVs should be very hard and they shouldn't be something that if a player just focuses on a little be accomplished like regular UHVs, they should be more like the UHVs of Babylon and Egypt in RFC, with players having to think hard how they'll play in order to accomplish them.

 

[jessiecat]

1.But then Portugal might settle anywhere.
2. Yes, something like that, more like 1550, different wording though.
3. Yes, Late game for England!
4.Well they're not exactly cobbled, have you played the Charlemagne mod? Yes, I didn't really add many cites, Just villages. Do you like that idea?
5.The cities will flip to Byzantium on the next turn, causing a surge of stablity, they should then break off rather soon, as in history.
6.Ok
7. Here goes, probably did it wrong...




(Can we move Cyrene 1 tile East?, check a map)

1. Of course they'll settle where they like! This is Civ isn't it?.
2. Agreed
3. Agreed
4. I like the roads as they are. Just ordinary roads. Too many new indies though esp. in Italy, Spain, England
and France. These towns, would they be named? Anyway I like them without names.
5. All those cities will flip to indy in a couple of turns after that. Do we really need so many indies, esp. in Anatolia? I thought we're trying to keep the indies to a minimum.
6. Agreed
7. Looks fine to me. You did it right. And yes, Cyrene is better where you put it.

 

[jessiecat]

Hey I was thinking maybe we could add like an optional UHV which will be really hard to get and also it's finish date should be very early and if completed it will give the player a golden age, so for France for example it will be control Dijon by 650AD and for England control more than 3 cities in France by XAD, and for Hungary it will be conquer Bulgaria by XAD, so yes basically it will be about conquering but some civs which didn't conquer much would have some cool UHVs to think about, maybe Portugal's optional UHV could be to settle 2 cities in Nafrica by XAD.
So basically these UHVs should be very hard and they shouldn't be something that if a player just focuses on a little be accomplished like regular UHVs, they should be more like the UHVs of Babylon and Egypt in RFC, with players having to think hard how they'll play in order to accomplish them.

Interesting idea. But maybe we should get the main UHVs sorted out first. OK?

 

[BurnEmDown]

Agreed For the optional UHVs I don't know if it would fit better to have goals that divert you from your main UHV goals (thus making them harder) or goals that are really hard but if you accomplish them will help you towards your UHV goal (like the many example goals I've given to England, France, Portugal, Hungary).
For goals that divert I think for example for France: Vassalize Burgundy by 700AD, that would be not only kinda challanging, but also would make it harder to conquer them later, you'd have to let them die out somehow or break off from your vassalization, which is much more problematic than just conquering them.

 

[3Miro]

Many people play RFC with the so called challenges, i.e. a different set of UHVs. For example, when I play Rome, I always try to recover the territory lost to France and Spain and the others. My goal is to have Trian's Empire in 1400AD. So players can do that without extra code from us.

 

[Michael Vick]

1. I meant that in order to reach their UHV, Portugal would now be settling in France and other random, empty areas instead of the islands and Africa, which defeats the purpose of giving them a territorial UHV.
4. I'd like to atleast put in Hispala and Ebora, Gades was actually more important but Cordoba will probably settle it no matter what. Then there's Ceasaragusta(Zaragoza), as probably the second most important city of Aragon. We can get rid of maybe one or two of the villages in England. I only named them to explain their locations, they wouldn't have the little tags in game.
5. Reggio and Bari could probably be made into villages, Naples is already there anyway. I think Pisa is important, it was one of the four big trading republics in Italy. Genoa, Venice, Pisa, and Amalfi or something. Also it's home to one of the wonders. Why should we worry about too many indies in the early game? Europe will eventually get crowded and the earliest turns already fly pretty quickly, at least on my computer. Right now I think that Trebizond, Cairo, Dyrrachium, Pisa, Strasbourg, Bordeaux, Reims, Lyon, Seville, and Zaragoza are most important as extra indies.
7. I'm not much for computers, this is a big step for me.

 

[3Miro]

I don't think France is an easy spot to settle, consider the cultural war with both France and Burgundy. Actually Africa and the Azores would be the easy locations (close + no one to compete with, except maybe Cordoba).

 

[Michael Vick]

I've seen the Portuguese take Cadiz, Marseilles, one time even Lubeck, but ok, let's try that UHV.

 

[youtien]

As Portugal my only stragedy is conquer Spain and Cordoba. If I can't maintain control, I can raze.