Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

Ideally from both - I'm not sure that they'd be on a direct upgrade path, although it might make sense to have them upgrade from light cavalry. They'd show up a little before line infantry - maybe with military science (Military tactics would be the other obvious choice here, but I don't think we've currently got a unit that goes with military science).

That's three votes in favor without much in the way of dissent. Shall we add it?

Just to clarify. I think light cavalry already upgrades to hussar and knight upgrades to cuiraissier. I think the dragoon should become available from the musketman tree but not replace it. So that when you get Line infantry you will already have researched dragoons and grenadiers, making 3 types of infantry available in the late game.
I'll vote for that, on the grounds that any addition that enhances the flavour of the mod is a good thing.
When we get around to individual civs I'll be lobbying for lots of ethnically-diverse units as well.
 
Two things on the 1st Spanish UHV, I'm more concerned with the date than the action:

1) The Iberian Union was in 1581, would it be better to push this out to 1600 for historic purposes?

2) When Portugal spawns in 1100, I think there will likely be a war right off the bat with Cordoba, already strengthened (or weakened, depending upon how it goes) from war with the Spanish: is 1100 to 1500 enough time for Portugal to come into its own without becoming an almost automatic vassal of Spain or someone else? If we push it out to 1600, much of the rest of Europe will likely be in religious wars (I seem to recall something triggering that at some point, but can't find it in the thread), and it would be tougher for Portugal to do something foolish, like be a vassal of Sweden or something.

I'm not sure we had factored in the Iberian Union as it was fairly short-lived anyway. I'd go for 1600 for the UHV1 but you'd need to push the 2nd. one out to 1650 I think. So yes, I guess.
 
The dutch UP is IMO way too weak.

They normally only have 1 city. 1 extra trade route means no more then 5 commerce or so.

I think it should be a bonus to trade routes (e.g. + 50% trade route). That would be something if some colonial wonders could add extra trade routes.

As for the UU of the dutch. I think it's a better idea to give them some kind of privateer that could maraud spanish silver fleets :D
 
The dutch UP is IMO way too weak.

They normally only have 1 city. 1 extra trade route means no more then 5 commerce or so.

I think it should be a bonus to trade routes (e.g. + 50% trade route). That would be something if some colonial wonders could add extra trade routes.

As for the UU of the dutch. I think it's a better idea to give them some kind of privateer that could maraud spanish silver fleets :D

You're probably right about about the Dutch UP. It is weak. As for the UU.
What silver fleets? There's no New World on our map. Colonial projects (like wonders)
will simulate colonies. A privateer would be fairly useless IMO.
 
The dutch UP is IMO way too weak.

They normally only have 1 city. 1 extra trade route means no more then 5 commerce or so.

I think it should be a bonus to trade routes (e.g. + 50% trade route). That would be something if some colonial wonders could add extra trade routes.

As for the UU of the dutch. I think it's a better idea to give them some kind of privateer that could maraud spanish silver fleets :D

Cornelio, have you looked at the map? Nobody's a one-city challenge on here - I'd be surprised if the Dutch ended up with less than 4.

Still, the 50% bonus to trade route income might be a more powerful bonus than 2 extra trade routes. Worth considering, certainly.
 
The point of RFC Europe is that no nation is underrepresented like the Dutch and Portuguese in RFC. Everyone would have room to build at least a small empire. The only one that may end up being OCC is the Papal State if/when it is included (and that would be historical).

Sorry for being kind of away for some time now. I hope to have time for some work this Friday. Right now I am having some trouble working on the Inquisitor AI, the way it works in Charlemagne, it makes no sense. In the Charlemagne mod, Inquisitors are build at random (literally), I want to make it more sensible (i.e. if there is no immediate danger and there is foreign religion in the Empire and appropriate Civics are being used).

Then I will continue with the UHVs and UPs. I hope the wiki is updated with the latest decisions.
 
The point of RFC Europe is that no nation is underrepresented like the Dutch and Portuguese in RFC. Everyone would have room to build at least a small empire. The only one that may end up being OCC is the Papal State if/when it is included (and that would be historical).

Sorry for being kind of away for some time now. I hope to have time for some work this Friday. Right now I am having some trouble working on the Inquisitor AI, the way it works in Charlemagne, it makes no sense. In the Charlemagne mod, Inquisitors are build at random (literally), I want to make it more sensible (i.e. if there is no immediate danger and there is foreign religion in the Empire and appropriate Civics are being used).

Then I will continue with the UHVs and UPs. I hope the wiki is updated with the latest decisions.

Yes. The wiki is up to date with all the latest decisions. A couple might need tweaking a bit but you'll probably want to come back here for clarification anyway, if coding is a problem.
 
I've uploaded the files appropriately modified for the UUs and UBs for the first 5 civs on the Files thread.

I have 2 problems/questions with next 5:

1) What building will the Cordoban Soria replace? The aqueduct?
2) We already have a galleas unit available to everyone. Should we reconsider Venice's UU (currently a Galleas on the wiki)? We could also just give them a better Galleas with minimally different graphics and a unique name
 
I've uploaded the files appropriately modified for the UUs and UBs for the first 5 civs on the Files thread.

I have 2 problems/questions with next 5:

1) What building will the Cordoban Soria replace? The aqueduct?
2) We already have a galleas unit available to everyone. Should we reconsider Venice's UU (currently a Galleas on the wiki)? We could also just give them a better Galleas with minimally different graphics and a unique name

Both suggestions sound good to me. The large Venetian galleys were called Lanterns, which seems like a good UU name. One other thing - do we want to change the spelling on Galleas to Galleass? I've seen it written both ways, but the majority of the citations I've seen have it with the double S.
 
Both suggestions sound good to me. The large Venetian galleys were called Lanterns, which seems like a good UU name. One other thing - do we want to change the spelling on Galleas to Galleass? I've seen it written both ways, but the majority of the citations I've seen have it with the double S.

Sorry. I must have missed that one when I updated the wiki. I did mean that the Soria (water mill) replaces the Aqueduct but with a hammers boost. I wasn't aware of the "Lantern" large war galley but that sounds good to me.
 
I'm not 100% sure if this is easy to implement but, this is what I had in mind for the colonies:

West India Company
----100% building for West India Colonies
East India Company
----100% building for East India Colonies
Gold Coast (6 allowed) (WIC)
----1 gold, 1 banana
Slave Coast (6 allowed) (WIC)
----20% production, 20% coins in the city
Ivory Coast (6 allowed) (WIC)
----1 ivory, 1 coffee
Mexican Conquests (WIC)
----4000 gold
Incan Conquests (WIC)
----4000 gold
Malabar Coast (6 allowed) (EIC)
----1 silk
Ceylon (EIC)
----3 sugar
Malacca (EIC)
----2 spice
Cuban Plantations (WIC)
----2 tobacco
Brazil (WIC)
----1 sugar, 1 banana
Cape Town (EIC)
----1 trade route, 100% overseas trade route yield
Swahili Coast (EIC)
----2 spice
Siberian Ostrogs
---- + 50% production, 2 unhappy faces in the city
Far Eastern Ostrogs
---- + 50% production, 2 unhappy faces in the city
Far Eastern Treaty Port (8 allowed) (EIC)
----1 tea
Jamestown Colony (WIC)
----1 tobacco
Hudson bay company (WIC)
----3 fur
East Indies (EIC)
----1 tea, 1 sugar, 1 coffee, 1 spice

gold:.......6
coffee:....7
banana:...7
ivory:......6
silk:........6
sugar:.....5
spice:.....5
tobacco:.3
tea:.......8
fur:........7

What do you think?

Some notes:
Since there was always one India Company who had a monopoly, I thought it shouldn't be something like a national wonder.
There's nothing (yet) for cotton.
Maybe great merchants should rush these things instead of great engineers.
 
Hey Cornelio,

A nice list. I like the idea of having West/East India Companies to allow individual civs to become powerful colonizers specializing in certain hemispheres. I don't see anything here that would be complicated to code. BuildingClassInfos.xml allows you to arbitrarily set how many buildings of each type are allowed in the world. The money boost of the "conquests" will have to be done in Python I believe -- but it's easy to implement with an onBuildingBuilt check.

I agree it makes more sense for great merchants to rush these.

As we currently have UHV requirements as "build 3 colonial projects", it will be necessary not to have too many individual colonies. I guess I'd favor decreasing the number of duplicates available -- allow only 3 "Gold Coasts", and perhaps boost them so they give two of each luxury. An alternative, of course, is to raise the UHV to require more colonies.
 
Just to clarify in case I've misunderstood something. There was not just one East India Company or West India Company which held the monopoly over a particular area. For example there was an English West India Company, a French West India Company and a Dutch West India Company, etc. Each only held the monopoly of that trade within their own country and were often at war with each other. Same for the Spanish and Portugese who had something similiar. So each of the ciivs within our mod should be able to build any company as one of their National Wonders, I think. So we could have, in theory, up to 20 West India Companies and 20 East India Companies, not just one of each.
 
Hey Cornelio,

A nice list. I like the idea of having West/East India Companies to allow individual civs to become powerful colonizers specializing in certain hemispheres. I don't see anything here that would be complicated to code. BuildingClassInfos.xml allows you to arbitrarily set how many buildings of each type are allowed in the world. The money boost of the "conquests" will have to be done in Python I believe -- but it's easy to implement with an onBuildingBuilt check.

I agree it makes more sense for great merchants to rush these.

As we currently have UHV requirements as "build 3 colonial projects", it will be necessary not to have too many individual colonies. I guess I'd favor decreasing the number of duplicates available -- allow only 3 "Gold Coasts", and perhaps boost them so they give two of each luxury. An alternative, of course, is to raise the UHV to require more colonies.

Cornelio and Sedna,

When the colonies-as-projects idea was initially proposed, there were two suggested ways of handling it. One involved having all civs competing to build the same limited number of colonies, as the wonder and project system works normally. The other suggestion involved having many (possibly all) colonies as national wonders - so that everyone could have a Carribean sugar-producing island, or a spice island in Indonesia.

I come down on the first side of the issue - while it makes sense to have some colonies more or less guaranteed to everyone (the sugar islands, in particular), I feel that for the major colonies which grant enough resources to be traded, there should only be one available, for which the competition is fierce. Additionally, while it's somewhat logical to have great merchants be able to help rush these, I'm not sure rushing should be allowed. It's not allowed for spaceship parts, the internet, or the manhattan project - I feel like colonial projects should fall into the same camp. Additionally, if all civs are competing for the same colonies, there will be lots of costly failures - just as there were in the real colonial era. This makes espionage more important and valuable, as the intelligence could be used to avoid losing colony races.

My proposal, then, is to offer a sort of hybrid model - have some colonies (Carribean sugar island, Far Eastern port, East/West India Company) as national wonders - possibly going so far as to make the East/West India company a requirement to start building colonial projects. The rest of the major colonies (Hudson Bay, Virginia, Brazil, etc.) would be global projects - open to anyone with the requisite tech (and maybe trading company), and un-rushable.
As a twist to this, would it be possible to make it possible for a great merchant to found/build/rush the East India Company, without screwing up the mechanics for everything else?


Edit: Some cross-posting with Jessiecat. His point about the EIC/WIC is basically what I was going for with the national wonder proposal.
 
I think we slightly cross-posted there but you've answered my question anyway. I like your proposal of making it necessary for every civ to build an East India Company and/or a West India Company to enable some colonial projects. But other projects would stand alone as World Wonders which any civ could build. Is that the kind of hybrid system you're thinking of? If so, I agree totally.
 
Why should some be national? Not every Civ can Colonize the world. That would be odd. There were only a couple of colonizers: the Portuguese, Spanish, French, English and the Dutch. One might add Germany and the Norse, but that's really it.

Having 6 of the same colonies allowed means that only a few civs can have those luxury resources. Furthermore, this way I could build more of the same colony to get a monopoly.

Besides all that, I thought it would be really nice if you could trade colonies with other civs, like you can do with technologies. But that's maybe something for later. What do you think?
 
Why should some be national? Not every Civ can Colonize the world. That would be odd. There were only a couple of colonizers: the Portuguese, Spanish, French, English and the Dutch. One might add Germany and the Norse, but that's really it.

Having 6 of the same colonies allowed means that only a few civs can have those luxury resources. Furthermore, this way I could build more of the same colony to get a monopoly.

Besides all that, I thought it would be really nice if you could trade colonies with other civs, like you can do with technologies. But that's maybe something for later. What do you think?

While only a few civs were major colonial powers, most of the big players had some areas on the outskirts of their empire that fit the definition of colonies. The Russian development of the Siberian Ostrogs aren't really equivalent to the Spanish conquest of Mexico, but would you argue that either didn't fit the definition of colonialism? And really, the colonial powers each did their colonizing differently; compare the Spanish model to the English and you'd have a hard time arguing that they're the same thing. The proposed national wonders are the types of colonies that everyone had access to - look how many India Companies there were, and how many countries at one point or another controlled a Carribean island full of sugar plantations.
Even some of the Muslim civs had colonial areas - look at how the Arabs spread throughout East Africa. Keep in mind, also, that you listed 7 civs as colonizers, leaving out the Russians and Arabs, in a mod that has 18. 8 or 9/18 is a pretty solid ratio - why should we cut everyone else out arbitrarily?

Not everyone can colonize the world, but there are still limited numbers of colonies to be built. Why shouldn't there be competition for them open to anyone willing to invest the resources? Why shouldn't the Romans be allowed to build the Great Wall, or the Germans the Statue of Liberty? Why should anyone other than the Russians and the Americans be allowed to build spaceships to win the game? Do we want to make the game completely deterministic, or have some flexibility built in? Not every civ will be competing on equal footing to build colonies, and some won't have the temperament, resources, or technological advancement to do it. Only a few civs, largely the ones you mentioned, will have colonial UHV requirements.

As initially proposed, colonies would grant more than one resource - for instance, Cuba might grant the builder 4 tobacco, which could then be traded to other civs. Nobody else would be able to build Cuba, and there might only be one other colony (Virginia) which would give access to tobacco. If a player built that colony as well, they would have a monopoly. This models monopoly practices and limited resources quite well, and takes the slot of some of the resource-granting wonders (Wembley, Graceland) from RFC. This reduces the learning curve for playing the mod, which is also one of our explicitly stated goals.


I don't see any way of making colonies a tradeable commodity. Trading cities, which is pretty close in intent, is essentially impossible with civ and RFC AI. As written, colonies are projects rather than geographic places - there's no way to make them transferrable between one place and another.
 
Looking at this from another angle, how many civs in our mod need to build 3 Colonial Projects as part of their UHV? Only France, Spain, England, Portugal and the Netherlands have any incentive to do so. Which is historically pretty close to reality. From the AI point of view, why would any other civ like Bulgaria for example, want to build a colonial project at all? However, if they were powerful World Wonders with sufficient rewards, they would have a valid reason to do so.
I would suggest that all of our civs be allowed to build an East India Company and a West India Company as National Wonders but would count as part of the UHV for those 5 civs. The 3rd. colonial project requirement could be filled from a list of specific World Wonders like the Gold Coast, which any civ could build. But only those World Wonders would count for the UHV requirement. Gameplay wise, it would be a lot more competitive to see everybody racing to build the Gold Coast. I wouldn't want to see too many wonders that would count for the UHV though as there will already be a large list of world wonders we will want included in this mod. And we want to make sure there's enough of them spread though the length of the mod with enough incentive for the AI or the player to build them. What about that idea?

An alternative idea might be that the EIC and the WIC would be National Wonders available to all but not count as part of the UHV. And the list of Colonial Projects suggested by Cornelio be World Wonders, any three of which would count for the UHV condition. Which is pretty much what st. lucifer has suggested and might be easier to implement as well.
 
how about making the first colony of a kind relatively cheap and every further of the same more and more expensive, horrendously expensive, so that technically everyone could build colonies but if you get there too late it wouldnt really be worth it.
 
I agree with St. Lucifer and Jessiecat. We would have something like EIC and WIC or generically Trading Company national wonder. Then specific colonies would be world wonders that give resources that can be traded (same as Hollywood). Everyone should be able to build colonies, but some nations would be less likely to do that (i.e. as per their UHV).

Overall western nation should be building most of the colonies, but I don't see a reason for eastern civs to be left out. If we see some disbalance, we could add a new resource "strategic access to the Atlantic Ocean", which would double the colonial production. The resource would be in sea tiles in Gibraltar, British Channel, some around Amsterdam and so on. Alternatively, we can make the colonial projects to be cheaper for Atlantic nations.
 
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