[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[leandrombraz]

I'll write a more extensive post with pics later but something is seriously pissing me off: Allies that have every reason to love me but they don't want to even renew the friendship. This is seriously killing Alliance in late game, I'm losing all my alliances with everyone drowning in positive diplo modifiers, I have green on top of green, positive is going through the roof but I already lost all my allies but one and I'm sure he will be gone too. There's some serious BS hidden modifiers forcing all leaders to treat me like I'm the worst of all warmongers, even though the game tells me that they love me. I suspect that it's because I declared a liberation war and liberated two cities. It triggered Gandhi's agenda and it been on negative ever since, so I bet it also flagged me as warmonger with some hidden shenanigan, even though I never got a single warmonger penalty.

This match was my best Civ VI match ever, I was having a lot of fun up to this point. This hidden BS is killing it for me. I did everything I had to do to get a reward, the game is telling I did everything I had to do but I'm not getting rewarded. If they declare a joint war on me I quit.

 

[Leyrann]

I just want to pop in and say that getting into a heroic age, mostly if it includes a 10-turn siege on a walled capital with only archers and warriors to get the era score from conquering it, is the Best. Thing. Ever.

It just feels so darn good. Two wars with Persia in the first two eras, and then a Heroic Age at the end of it, while Persia's last cities are crumbling under lost wars and loyalty pressure. Time for the empire to start blooming.

 

[Kimiimaro]

I just want to pop in and say that getting into a heroic age, mostly if it includes a 10-turn siege on a walled capital with only archers and warriors to get the era score from conquering it, is the Best. Thing. Ever.

It just feels so darn good. Two wars with Persia in the first two eras, and then a Heroic Age at the end of it, while Persia's last cities are crumbling under lost wars and loyalty pressure. Time for the empire to start blooming.

Empires crumbling after lost wars and bad rule leading to dark ages and blooming victorious empires that may later collapse if they grow too big and far is a nice new feature. It really helps with the history roleplay

 

[PhilBowles]

Ouch. I'm the Netherlands in this image, and a few turns before declaring war Korea became suzerain of Antananarivo.

On the plus side, this is the Civ VI AI, so no doubt once I deal with the city state swordsmen the Hwachas will block a melee attack on Leiden - right?

A couple of turns later:

Oh dear. Of course, being the AI it has to do something as randomly weird as throwing a Great Scientist into the fray.

Ah, it's Darwin. Next to a Natural Wonder.

 

[rattatatouille]

Can I say just how much I love that you can literally buy your way to a science victory now?

Reyna has a promo which allows you to buy districts with gold outright, the Royal Society allows you to rush district projects with builders (though they prevented 1 turn victories by limitimg it to one builder per turn), and gold buying builders is very easy late game where 400+ gold per builder is chump change.

 

[Ondolindë]

Did we ever get R&F patch notes?

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

I started digging into the R&F code today. Correct me if I'm wrong but this might be the first time that I have seen Firaxis use the terms Tall and Wide. Nothing vague about this:

<Row Type="BUILDING_GOV_TALL" Kind="KIND_BUILDING"/>
<Row Type="BUILDING_GOV_WIDE" Kind="KIND_BUILDING"/>

 

[rattatatouille]

Tall is the Audience Chamber. Wide is the Ancestral Hall.

Unfortunately, even when playing tall, the Ancestral Hall is still better.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Since we'rw stuck with one huge clumbsy thread can someone tell me which is the first post after the release?

 

[CivLuvah]

I don't really understand why it upsets people so much though. It can certainly be a little irritating, and there are times when I wonder why they've made it so unnecessarily complicated, but I've seen plenty of people arguing that it makes the game 'unplayable' which is blooming daft in my opinion

What I've noticed about criticisms regarding Civ6 being "unplayable" that are not about the AI is that they basically make mountains out of anthills, and proclaim that the anthills are impossible and "unconquerable", to use mountaineer parlance.

 

[miaasma]

I'll write a more extensive post with pics later but something is seriously pissing me off: Allies that have every reason to love me but they don't want to even renew the friendship. This is seriously killing Alliance in late game, I'm losing all my alliances with everyone drowning in positive diplo modifiers, I have green on top of green, positive is going through the roof but I already lost all my allies but one and I'm sure he will be gone too. There's some serious BS hidden modifiers forcing all leaders to treat me like I'm the worst of all warmongers, even though the game tells me that they love me. I suspect that it's because I declared a liberation war and liberated two cities. It triggered Gandhi's agenda and it been on negative ever since, so I bet it also flagged me as warmonger with some hidden shenanigan, even though I never got a single warmonger penalty.

This match was my best Civ VI match ever, I was having a lot of fun up to this point. This hidden BS is killing it for me. I did everything I had to do to get a reward, the game is telling I did everything I had to do but I'm not getting rewarded. If they declare a joint war on me I quit.

there are definitely some hidden modifiers affecting AI attitude because many of them will randomly become friendly with me (even if there are more negative modifiers than positive) and maintain game-long friendships with me

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Tall is the Audience Chamber. Wide is the Ancestral Hall.

Unfortunately, even when playing tall, the Ancestral Hall is still better.

You're correct. I wasn't being sarcastic. Normally I hear the words "tall" and "wide" out of the mouths of players. I have never seen or heard the developers actually use those words until now.

 

[FractalAdvocate]

there are definitely some hidden modifiers affecting AI attitude because many of them will randomly become friendly with me (even if there are more negative modifiers than positive) and maintain game-long friendships with me

I think there are strategic considerations in addition to how much they like you that they consider for DoW/Denouncing/Friendship/Alliances.

I'm fairly sure I've been refused friendship, denounced, and attacked because I'm nearby and look easy to crush, even though if I look at the numbers/icons, they like me quite a bit.

I would not be at all surprised if there are calculations beyond "how much do I like this person" on other diplomatic-level decisions.

 

[Leyrann]

Tall is the Audience Chamber. Wide is the Ancestral Hall.

Unfortunately, even when playing tall, the Ancestral Hall is still better.

I had a game where Audience Chamber was a vastly better option. 7 cities, 7 governors, no intention to build any more more when I finished the Government Plaza. Sounds like +1 amenity, +4 housing for all cities would be preferable over settler production and a free builder for every new city.

Since we'rw stuck with one huge clumbsy thread can someone tell me which is the first post after the release?

It's somewhere between 4900 and 5000. I remember thinking we might not get the 5000 before the release (and we didn't) and the mods might close it just before that milestone, which clearly didn't happen.

 

[Roald Amundsen]

I am referring to what I quoted.

You seem to get opinions and facts confused still.

A fact is objective. The world is round.
An opinion is subjective. The UI is good/bad.
Additionally, opinions tend to be based on facts (or not, but that's another matter), but that doesn't make them facts themselves.

Well, you know, there are those who would claim that the world is flat. But it is not flat, is it? My opinion on the shape of the earth is in fact based on facts.
To tell the quality of a UI, you have to compare it to other UI's. If it's worse, it's worse. If it's better, it's better. Civ 4 and 5 have a lot better UI's than Civ6. I recently installed and tried out Civ3 after many years. The UI is quite poor compared to Civ 4 and 5. I can tell, because I am able to compare it to not just other Civ games, but to other games and even programs I frequently use. If I wanted to, I could go out of my way and scientificely prove that Civ6 has a poor UI, by comparing with other UI's. But why bother?

Some things, like game exiting yield management when you try to change tiles to work are obvious bugs and I can't believe this made it into the game. I really like to micro manage tiles for cities to work (switch focus, shared tiles between cities) and this bug makes that extremely tedious. My other complaints, which can not be characterized as bugs, I'm inclined to believe are deliberate game design from Firaxis. The only reason I can come up with for hiding away numbers and putting information behind unnessescary mouse clicks is to try and not intimidate new players, and make the game look more "fresh". Typically, new players will start on lower difficulties. If you play on lower difficulties you don't really need numbers in order to win. But if you wan't to play effectively, or on immortal or deity, numbers are much more important.

 

[Leyrann]

Well, you know, there are those who would claim that the world is flat. But it is not flat, is it? My opinion on the shape of the earth is in fact based on facts.
To tell the quality of a UI, you have to compare it to other UI's. If it's worse, it's worse. If it's better, it's better. Civ 4 and 5 have a lot better UI's than Civ6. I recently installed and tried out Civ3 after many years. The UI is quite poor compared to Civ 4 and 5. I can tell, because I am able to compare it to not just other Civ games, but to other games and even programs I frequently use. If I wanted to, I could go out of my way and scientificely prove that Civ6 has a poor UI, by comparing with other UI's. But why bother?

Some things, like game exiting yield management when you try to change tiles to work are obvious bugs and I can't believe this made it into the game. I really like to micro manage tiles for cities to work (switch focus, shared tiles between cities) and this bug makes that extremely tedious. My other complaints, which can not be characterized as bugs, I'm inclined to believe are deliberate game design from Firaxis. The only reason I can come up with for hiding away numbers and putting information behind unnessescary mouse clicks is to try and not intimidate new players, and make the game look more "fresh". Typically, new players will start on lower difficulties. If you play on lower difficulties you don't really need numbers in order to win. But if you wan't to play effectively, or on immortal or deity, numbers are much more important.

Those who claim the world is flat use an incorrect fact, not an opinion. Subjectivity and objectivity. There's nothing subjective about the shape of the earth, but there's a lot of subjectivity on the quality of the UI, or basically anything, because quality is not an absolute thing.

As for the quality of the UI, I personally prefer it over both Civ IV and Civ V. Comparisions, I might note, are by definition subjective except if you're comparing things that are themselves objective, and the quality of a UI, on it's own or compared with others, is not objective.

As for the "exiting yield management", what are you even talking about here? I'll admit I don't often micromanage my cities (I do on occasion though), but the only thing I can think if when you're talking about yield management is what you make the city prioritize (the food, production etc focus or ignore) which is the opposite of selecting tiles to work.

 

[Roald Amundsen]

Those who claim the world is flat use an incorrect fact, not an opinion. Subjectivity and objectivity. There's nothing subjective about the shape of the earth, but there's a lot of subjectivity on the quality of the UI, or basically anything, because quality is not an absolute thing.

As for the quality of the UI, I personally prefer it over both Civ IV and Civ V. Comparisions, I might note, are by definition subjective except if you're comparing things that are themselves objective, and the quality of a UI, on it's own or compared with others, is not objective.

As for the "exiting yield management", what are you even talking about here? I'll admit I don't often micromanage my cities (I do on occasion though), but the only thing I can think if when you're talking about yield management is what you make the city prioritize (the food, production etc focus or ignore) which is the opposite of selecting tiles to work.

To clearify. Let's say I have a size 3 city, Berlin. I enter the city screen by clicking on the city. In earlier civ games (and i QCUI) I can immedeatly see and change which tiles are being worked (in this case three tiles). In civ 6 i need to take the mouse pointer and click the resource management icon though, as far as i can tell. Now i get the information. The tiles being worked is represented by three blue heads. The tiles not being worked are marked with the same heads but in a darker tone, indicating that the tiles are not being worked. Now I want to change which tiles to work. I want to work different tiles. When I click on a new tile to work, then whoops, I'm kicked back to the main city management screen. If I want to change another tile, I have to go back to this screen all over again. Now let's say I'm microing two citys. Hamburg, a nearby city is sharing tiles with Berlin. Good Food and Production tiles. I'm juggling them back and forth between the cities. These kind of operations has become extremely time consuming in civ6. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But if I am, I think the develpoers has made a really good job of hiding the optimal way.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I had a game where Audience Chamber was a vastly better option. 7 cities, 7 governors, no intention to build any more more when I finished the Government Plaza. Sounds like +1 amenity, +4 housing for all cities would be preferable over settler production and a free builder for every new city.

Well, if you delay building Government Plaza for some reasons (and as I understand, there could be enough reasons for this), Audience Chamber grows better and better.

 

[Leyrann]

To clearify. Let's say I have a size 3 city, Berlin. I enter the city screen by clicking on the city. In earlier civ games (and i QCUI) I can immedeatly see and change which tiles are being worked (in this case three tiles). In civ 6 i need to take the mouse pointer and click the resource management icon though, as far as i can tell. Now i get the information. The tiles being worked is represented by three blue heads. The tiles not being worked are marked with the same heads but in a darker tone, indicating that the tiles are not being worked. Now I want to change which tiles to work. I want to work different tiles. When I click on a new tile to work, then whoops, I'm kicked back to the main city management screen. If I want to change another tile, I have to go back to this screen all over again. Now let's say I'm microing two citys. Hamburg, a nearby city is sharing tiles with Berlin. Good Food and Production tiles. I'm juggling them back and forth between the cities. These kind of operations has become extremely time consuming in civ6. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But if I am, I think the develpoers has made a really good job of hiding the optimal way.

Uhm, if I were you I'd try re-downloading the game, because that is something I have never encountered that in 370 hours of playing this game.

 

[sonicmyst]

On the Steam side of things, I am happy to report that Civ VI now has more players than Civ V!
Civ VI is at top 10 now, while Civ V is at top 15.