[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Rosty K]

Given that, there should be industrial and later era Great Prophets such as Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard.

Bob Marley

 

[Cerilis]

There should be some mechanic preventing one player to grab all the early ones though. Like Prophets after the first to be much more expensive for that particular player or something. Else one could prevent other players from getting religions by just continuing to grab them.

 

[agonistes]

Great Prophets should be available the whole game and let you choose between:

- founding a religion (up to whatever is the max for that map),

- if you’ve founded a religion already, allow you to Evangelise Belief (ie pick another Belief) or start and inquistion, or

- get a random bonus, being either relic, religious work of art, unlock your policy cards, or a random civics boost.

Could just be the later prophets give a massive faith bomb. But one later religion would be cool too.

 

[Rosty K]

But one later religion would be cool too.

Could also be something quite opposite, like proclaiming the atheist state (your cities are harder to convert, but you get some bonus in return), or religious freedom (your religious units can spread any of the religions already founded, so you can pick and choose beliefs in your cities and/or take the religious fighting to neutral grounds).

 

[God of Kings]

Could also be something quite opposite, like proclaiming the atheist state (your cities are harder to convert, but you get some bonus in return), or religious freedom (your religious units can spread any of the religions already founded, so you can pick and choose beliefs in your cities and/or take the religious fighting to neutral grounds).

The atheist state would get a huge science boost for example. However, the atheist state would no longer be able to generate any faith, all faith would be zero, and have zero bonuses from pantheons or religion. Foreign religious units would have a very difficult time converting the state's citizens.

 

[Rosty K]

The atheist state would get a huge science boost for example. However, the atheist state would no longer be able to generate any faith, all faith would be zero, and have zero bonuses from pantheons or religion. Foreign religious units would have a very difficult time converting the state's citizens.

In this form it sounds more like a policy card really...

On the other hand, when the Prophets are gone and religions have been founded, it could just be Religious GP (Great Preachers or something), who may operate as normal GP, each providing some unique faith/religion related bonus. E.g. extra beliefs (unique for the GP), boosts to faith buildings, etc.

E.g.: Torquemada. Get a free inquisitor, all inquisitors get +XX strength/charges, nobody expects them.

 

[acluewithout]

The atheist state would get a huge science boost for example. However, the atheist state would no longer be able to generate any faith, all faith would be zero, and have zero bonuses from pantheons or religion. Foreign religious units would have a very difficult time converting the state's citizens.

I don't see why an Atheist state would necessarily have higher science or not be able to generate faith.

I've often wondered how atheism or just secularism should be added to the game. There's a reduction in religious tourism after Enlightenment, but that's about it. If Firaxis make religion impact loyalty, perhaps that impact could be reduced from, say, the industrial era onwards. Perhaps there should also be basically 'atheists' pressure which starts from some era onwards, and which can convert some of your citizens to atheists. This would only spread passively.

At the moment, I just assume that at some point some of my citizens which are 'religious' aren't actually all that religious. As in, whether they're eg 'christian' or not is more about their cultural background.

 

[Rosty K]

I don't see why an Atheist state would necessarily ... or not be able to generate faith.

For example to unlock the 'I find your lack of faith disturbing' achievement

Huh. Apparently, if your neighbor is wiped out, it makes Robert the Bruce happy, because there is indeed peace. I wonder if it's intended behavior

 

[Leyrann]

The atheist state would get a huge science boost for example. However, the atheist state would no longer be able to generate any faith, all faith would be zero, and have zero bonuses from pantheons or religion. Foreign religious units would have a very difficult time converting the state's citizens.

I'm just saying... Naturalists.

 

[Uberfrog]

Huh. Apparently, if your neighbor is wiped out, it makes Robert the Bruce happy, because there is indeed peace. I wonder if it's intended behavior

Well “happy” in that you’ve fulfilled his agenda, but it’s unlikely to offset the amount of warmonger penalties you have accrued if you actually wipe them out...

Just because the AI pop up when you satisfy their agenda doesn’t mean their opinion of you is actually net positive

 

[Victoria]

I don't see why an Atheist state would necessarily have higher science or not be able to generate faith.

Rationalism was a move away from blind faith and look what happened to the ottomans by keeping it.
I’m not saying it’s all to do with faith by any means but it seemed to be of some benefit.

 

[acluewithout]

All I really meant was that Civ tends not to pigeonhole certain concepts, eg governments can run any policy they want (albeit governments affect what slots you have). Likewise, Civ doesn’t create any negatives for religion, and let’s you harness religion to give you science or culture or gold.

I think having Atheism favour or reduce a particular yield would cut across that. I’d rather just see Atheism reduce religious pressure or affect how religion impacts on loyalty. Something like that.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

As an atheist, I'd rather see the game stick to religion as a fun game concept, and not try to get too close to real life. This isn't really the forum for debates about what the overall impact on society is from having more or less people who are spiritually inclined.

That you can only create national parks as a result of Faith suggests that the yield represented by Faith in game can be viewed as more broadly based than simply a belief in a particular religion.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Huh. Apparently, if your neighbor is wiped out, it makes Robert the Bruce happy, because there is indeed peace. I wonder if it's intended behavior

He learned some of that from Gandhi apparently.

 

[Mojo85]

Playing fractal map with Brazil and Korea is WAY ahead in science. Thankfully my great scientist Minas Gaeras is enroute to acquire their secrets

 

[agonistes]

All I really meant was that Civ tends not to pigeonhole certain concepts, eg governments can run any policy they want (albeit governments affect what slots you have). Likewise, Civ doesn’t create any negatives for religion, and let’s you harness religion to give you science or culture or gold.

I think having Atheism favour or reduce a particular yield would cut across that. I’d rather just see Atheism reduce religious pressure or affect how religion impacts on loyalty. Something like that.

Oooh, governments blacking out certain policies is a great idea!

Maybe we can start limiting policies based on leader, too.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Oooh, governments blacking out certain policies is a great idea!

Maybe we can start limiting policies based on leader, too.

I would rather not. Strange policy anachronisms are part of the fun.

 

[Rosty K]

Oooh, governments blacking out certain policies is a great idea!

Maybe we can start limiting policies based on leader, too.

What do you have against the Jewish Nazis?

 

[agonistes]

I would rather not. Strange policy anachronisms are part of the fun.

You could still have them. I'm thinking more about the value of increased opportunity cost, regarding the government blackouts, and more balance regarding leader blackouts.

You could also introduce new policies as well, to retain your 'anachronisms'. Maybe have negatives or lesser effects or similar effects that don't synergize as well, for cards that align with alternate governments.

I'm among the group that wants to see more constraints with policy swapping.

At least with marathon or slower policy decisions are a big deal. But I'd still like to see a bigger sweat factor.

Hmmm, have we yet seen a lua that directly interacts with government types? Like, +2 gold from all trade routes in a Merchant Republic, +2 faith from all Holy Sites in a Theocracy?

 

[Rosty K]

I'm among the group that wants to see more constraints with policy swapping

I probably would agree with having some constraints like 'can only pick a certain policy card one time per era' (e.g. if I pick Ilkum, then swap it for Colonization, I can't pick Ilkum again until the new era), or something, because I don't like the way how certain policy cards are constantly shuffled around (usual suspects are the two I've named, Conscription/Professional Army and the two early diplomatic ones). Could also limit the governor mobility in some similar fashion too, cause I'm sometimes getting tired of micromanaging the Great Travelers Liang and Magnus.