[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Guatenadian]

"Maple Leaf Forever?"

For a Canada Civ focused on our French Colonial heritage a song that heavily focuses on Britain would not be the best in my opinion.

What about Dutch canals? Are they artificial waterways as well? I could see the Dutch First Look showing canals, hopefully not as a unique improvement.

 

[CivLuvah]

For a Canada Civ focused on our French Colonial heritage a song that heavily focuses on Britain would not be the best in my opinion.

Why not, since that it reflects Canada as a whole? I am assuming that if the devs are making a Canadian civ, they have to have the entire country (both geographically and temporally) in mind.

 

[Zaarin]

Your reply smells like a rant from someone who had been educated in a bubble of old Europe history books.
It slowed in Europe, not necessarily in the rest of the globe. If I recall right muslins were booming with great advancements in math and optics.
I have no idea what social development you are talking about, monarchies? Many old emperors would make Europeans kings look like governors.
Do you think there weren't learning and healing places in antiquity? Medicine was much better before than the butchery it was in medieval Europe.
As was many schools like Greek philosophy schools.

We were talking about Europe because you specifically mentioned Europe. The technical sciences were also flourishing in the Middle East under Islam, but theoretical science and philosophy had the same roadblock there as they did in Europe (and Classical Rome, I might add): an unwillingness to question the Greek classics. I admit I don't know much about theoretical science in the East, but they certainly were far outpacing the technological development of the West (which, I have to correct you, slowed down briefly in the Early Middle Ages only to quickly outstrip anything before it by the High Middle Ages--the rapid advancement of technology we see today didn't start in the Renaissance; it started in the High Middle Ages) with such advances as paper, gunpowder, rocketry, repeating crossbows, the printing press, paper money, and so forth.

Absolute monarchy was a development of the Renaissance, not the Middle Ages; most Medieval kings had no power except in times of war, and even then were bound by the wishes of the nobility. Of course places of learning and healing existed before the Middle Ages, but universities and hospitals as they exist now are a development of the Middle Ages. Also, Classical medicine was no better than Medieval medicine: Medieval medicine was based on the same sources but added antiseptics and anesthesia. Romanticizing the Graeco-Roman classical era was the chief flaw in the Renaissance, and it was carried to new extremes by the Victorians. History doesn't bear out such romanticism; the Middle Ages were a continuation of Classical civilization in more ways than they broke with them.

(If you care to update your views instead of citing Victorian hyperbole, try The Mind of the Middle Ages by Frederick B. Artz [which is a great overview of ontology from Plato to the end of the High Middles Ages] or The Renaissance of the Twelfth Century by Charles Homer Haskins.)

 

[Guatenadian]

Why not, since that it reflects Canada as a whole? I am assuming that if the devs are making a Canadian civ, they have to have the entire country (both geographically and temporally) in mind.

My point surrounds the fact that if a Canada Civ has Samuel de Champlain as its leader, along with a focus on our French colonial past, the Maple Leaf Forever wouldn't really fit with that. This is largely due to the fact the song makes no reference to France or anything French at all. You are correct in stating that if the devs were to make a Canada Civ they would have to incorporate aspects of modern Canada, but if there is a specific focus on one period of our history the music should reflect that. The Maple Leaf Forever contains the lines:

"On merry England's far famed land
May kind heaven sweetly smile,
God bless old Scotland evermore
and Ireland's Em'rald Isle!"

As I mentioned previously there's no reference to France and that would be very odd for a very pro-Britain song to be a French Canadian Civ song.

Anyways, this is more speculation than anything, we don't even know if Canada will be a Civ.

On a side note, it looks like there is a competition to see who's avatar looks more distraught. @Zaarin's or yours @CivLuvah.

 

[Zaarin]

On a side note, it looks like there is a competition to see who's avatar looks more distraught. @Zaarin's or yours @CivLuvah.

I think Riker's "I have a headache" look wins over Bashir's "I'm judging you" look, if "distraught" is the metric. Though without being certain what episode CivLuvah's Riker screen capture is from, mine is from "Dr. Bashir, I Presume?," which means Bashir was probably in more actual mental anguish.

 

[CivLuvah]

@Gautenadian: You do have a point...

Though without being certain what episode CivLuvah's Riker screen capture is from

I'm just discovering Star Trek: TNG, so I wouldn't know what episode or what context the screen capture is in. I just wanted a picture of Riker looking infuriated.

 

[God of Kings]

My point surrounds the fact that if a Canada Civ has Samuel de Champlain as its leader, along with a focus on our French colonial past, the Maple Leaf Forever wouldn't really fit with that. This is largely due to the fact the song makes no reference to France or anything French at all. You are correct in stating that if the devs were to make a Canada Civ they would have to incorporate aspects of modern Canada, but if there is a specific focus on one period of our history the music should reflect that. The Maple Leaf Forever contains the lines:

"On merry England's far famed land
May kind heaven sweetly smile,
God bless old Scotland evermore
and Ireland's Em'rald Isle!"

As I mentioned previously there's no reference to France and that would be very odd for a very pro-Britain song to be a French Canadian Civ song.

Anyways, this is more speculation than anything, we don't even know if Canada will be a Civ.

The Maple Leaf Forever's lyrics were rewritten to be more inclusive of the French: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maple_Leaf_Forever#Alternative_lyrics

 

[nzcamel]

I think Riker's "I have a headache" look wins over Bashir's "I'm judging you" look, if "distraught" is the metric.

I don't feel judged by Bashir...more it looks like he thinks I'm an annoyance lol

 

[Guandao]

How about Un Canadien errant for Canada's theme song? I like the melody. I first heard it as the music for Canada in a Carmen Sandiego game.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm just discovering Star Trek: TNG, so I wouldn't know what episode or what context the screen capture is in. I just wanted a picture of Riker looking infuriated.

TNG is fun; make sure to continue on to DS9: it's better.

I don't feel judged by Bashir...more it looks like he thinks I'm an annoyance lol

Considering that's the look he gave his father, that's entirely fair.


You know, there's been some speculation that R&F is adding more diverse cultural buildings: I really hope that's true. Today as I was playing I noted that Buenos Aires (and someone else mentioned Brazil) has the same step pyramid palace and jaguar warrior swordsmen as Palenque/Aztec. They really should add a "South American" style--and just more styles in general. (Also, why does Jerusalem use the Greek/Roman style instead of the Middle Eastern style?) I'd even be willing to pay for a DLC that added more in-depth unit and building diversity (for example, I noted that Palenque's archer had a Native American-skintone and an American-style bow, but was still dressed like a Greek archer).

 

[bite]

Look I don't know if it would happen, but to add to the speculation Ed also tweeted about the Berlin Wall, which does appear in the opening trailer

 

[God of Kings]

How about Un Canadien errant for Canada's theme song? I like the melody. I first heard it as the music for Canada in a Carmen Sandiego game.

It would be interesting if orchestrated for the Industrial and Atomic Eras.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Look I don't know if it would happen, but to add to the speculation Ed also tweeted about the Berlin Wall, which does appear in the opening trailer

Which is a cool scene, but far less interesting than what we were extrapolating.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

What are the chances of a first look tomorrow? The Khmer video came out on a Monday.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

What are the chances of a first look tomorrow? The Khmer video came out on a Monday.

Khmer came out on a Monday because of a crunched release schedule. Only a few other First Looks came out on Mondays, including the first one, America. So it's possible, but less likely.

 

[God of Kings]

Khmer came out on a Monday because of a crunched release schedule. Only a few other First Looks came out on Mondays, including the first one, America. So it's possible, but less likely.

There's nine Tuesdays until the expansion's release on Thursday, February 8. Each of the first eight Tuesdays would feature a new civ, with the Tuesday of the week of release featuring the alt leader of an existing civ.

Note that I did not count the Tuesday after Christmas, because Firaxis employees need some time after Christmas and because the Commonwealth countries have Boxing Day.

 

[JacquesBquick]

this first reveal is definitely going to be a couple big names, they need faces to sell the expansion. Think about the first people we saw for vanilla, USA leader was first, and a week later was Cleopatra, then Victoria, then Tokimune, Qin. They went with the big guns in terms of marketability, name recognition, etc. first. France was next but that was Catherine which was sorta the first "oh?" pick. Brazil was next which i think was also a surprise for folks that Brazil would be in vanilla at the time. They had Teddy and Cleopatra all over their advertising for the remainder of pre-release, so anticipate one or two big recognizable people to be first. Genghis Khan definitely fits the mold. Getting a Korean leader out early also fits the mold. They are heavily referenced in the trailer. I can't see how one of these two, if not both, come this week. A western civ COULD sneak in to 2nd reveal, but I'm not sure which one they could pick that would be so recognizable as to go above a korean leader.

 

[Guandao]

There's nine Tuesdays until the expansion's release on Thursday, February 8. Each of the first eight Tuesdays would feature a new civ, with the Tuesday of the week of release featuring the alt leader of an existing civ.

Would the First Look videos be the only content added? I hope not. I would like videos explaining the new mechanics. And a livestream (or several). Maybe a few wonder movies like they did with the base game.

 

[God of Kings]

Would the First Look videos be the only content added? I hope not. I would like videos explaining the new mechanics. And a livestream (or several). Maybe a few wonder movies like they did with the base game.

I have miscalculated. There's actually ten Tuesdays between now and the release of R&F. The extra Tuesday could be used for a video for wonders and/or new mechanics. The ten Wednesdays can be used for livestreams.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

They might do another AI battle royale on the extra week at the end. They could also do Wonder movies.