[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

That is by design. By staggering upgrades, certain unit classes are stronger in some eras but not others. That way an army is forced to diversify its unit types to be effective throughout the game. And UUs that occur between upgrades have a window of opportunity that doesn't exist for generic units of the same class.

You're right, but now there's an Anti-Cavalry in the Renaissance, and no new mounted unit (Light or Heavy) until Cavalry comes along in the early Industrial. That's both cavalry lines effectively mothballed for two eras each. With the one exception of Polish Hussars.

The same logic that says they should put a new unit between Pike (Medieval) and Anti-Tank (Modern) also says there should be a new unit between Knight (Medieval) and Tank (Modern) or Horseman (Classical) and Cavalry (Industrial).
 
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I'm not sure about that though. I still didnt understand how those eras come to be then. ^^"
If they would be connected, there would be a motivation to stay in them for longer and maybe some decisions like changing research plans and go for a golden age instead of getting tech X fast.
 
I just realised something. Remember when the board game came out and we had a discussion on the wonders that were included but were not actually in the game? Well the "Kremlin" and the Pentagon were both in the board game. Maybe the Pentagon could come in this expansion.

Yeah I was the one that noticed that in the boardgame coverage. The boardgame is using the identical art in leaders and wonders so I thought it was interesting to see St. Basil's and the Pentagon. Seeing St. Basil's in the screenshot was pretty great...wishing the boardgame had spoiled more. Perhaps in the expansions down the line.
 
Yeah I was the one that noticed that in the boardgame coverage. The boardgame is using the identical art in leaders and wonders so I thought it was interesting to see St. Basil's and the Pentagon. Seeing St. Basil's in the screenshot was pretty great...wishing the boardgame had spoiled more. Perhaps in the expansions down the line.

The boardgame came out this past weekend. Go buy it and let us know if there's more spoilers. :D
 
Speaking of which, I'd love to see some of the alternate abilities for Great Artists, Musicians & Writers make a come-back. Aside from making Great Works, Artists could help to push a Civilization closer to a Golden Age, or perhaps "Culture Bomb" a city on the outskirts of the Empire. A Great Writer Could write a political treatise that could either trigger an Inspiration for a Civic, or maybe increase the loyalty of all your cities. Great Musicians could do tours of Civilizations you have Open Borders with, & they could help to increase the loyalty of the foreign cities to *your* empire

Agreed. I said long ago that the Great Writers that produce art (novels, plays, etc) and Great Musicians should all be lumped into the Great Artist category and Great Writers should be philosophers that are to the Civics tree what Great Scientists are to the tech tree, but your proposal would allow them to keep the current structure of GWAM and still make those great people enticing to players not pursuing a cultural victory.
 
Brazil & Australia are two modern countries with a limited impact on the world too many

I'm okay with both of these since they fill a valuable gap on TSL maps. Canada, not as much, but yet still North American can be pretty large on Greatest Earth map (I believe it's around 110 by 100 or in that range). I would actually favor Canada over a Native American "civ" that was more nomadic and didn't have permanent cities.

I'd like to not keep knights beyond their welcome...but you have no choice.

Yeah I'd be okay with them introducing WW1 style tanks. I know it's not a huge time frame difference, but we do have biplanes in the game after all.
 
I'm also worried my wide empires are getting a major nerf.

They need to be nerfed, in my opinion. Right now there is one optimal strategy regardless of victory type. The game would be far more interesting if there were multiple strategies that were more or less equally viable.

Additionally, I've been thinking about the loyalty system, and I'm curious as to whether the recent religious view changes were inspired by and/or preparation for it. Loyalty may well have its own map mode, and city to city pressure, and time until city "flipping" will both be important to show.

Speaking of, I wonder if shared religion with nearby cities is going to play into Loyalty. This might be an opportunity for the developers to incentivize people to go for religions even if they're not playing for a religious victory.
 
Yeah I'd be okay with them introducing WW1 style tanks. I know it's not a huge time frame difference, but we do have biplanes in the game after all.

I think it'd make sense to turn the current "Cavalry" into a heavy cavalry unit (Cuirassier) , and upgrade the Horseman into a Lancer in the Renaissance. Then you have light cavalry units in the Classical and Renaissance, and heavy in the Medieval and Industrial. Staggered upgrades preserved... :)
 
I'm okay with both of these since they fill a valuable gap on TSL maps. Canada, not as much, but yet still North American can be pretty large on Greatest Earth map (I believe it's around 110 by 100 or in that range). I would actually favor Canada over a Native American "civ" that was more nomadic and didn't have permanent cities.

While I'm glad TSL is there for those who like it, I am a bit disappointed that so much consideration is given to it in terms of Civs etc. I pretty much never play on real maps TSL or not; as I think that discovering and reacting to the unknown is an important part of simulating history.

Yeah I'd be okay with them introducing WW1 style tanks. I know it's not a huge time frame difference, but we do have biplanes in the game after all.

I think Cuirassier's would fill the gap better (Gah - Uberfrog beat me to it!). They could thematically arrive sooner than WWI Tanks. They could be brought in at the Industrial era, and have the WWII tank pushed back to the Atomic. This may mean that Modern Armour also gets pushed back one.

I'm thinking that if they want to maintain the staggered upgrade path, that another era should be inserted to help spread out some of these units.
 
They need to be nerfed, in my opinion. Right now there is one optimal strategy regardless of victory type. The game would be far more interesting if there were multiple strategies that were more or less equally viable.

*face-palm* Cos that reflects reality :badcomp:
IF there needs to be a balancing, tall should get some bonuses that wide does not have. They shouldn't make tall better. They should just make sure it doesn't fall behind quite as much.
 
I'm thinking that if they want to maintain the staggered upgrade path, that another era should be inserted to help spread out some of these units.
The Enlightenment Era could be added between Renaissance and Industrial.

This era had numerous scientific and cultural breakthroughs. The Baroque era in the arts fits extremely well in the Enlightenment Era, rather than in the Renaissance or in the Industrial Era.
 
The Enlightenment Era could be added between Renaissance and Industrial.

This era had numerous scientific and cultural breakthroughs. The Baroque era in the arts fits extremely well in the Enlightenment Era, rather than in the Renaissance or in the Industrial Era.

I've been after this ever since the excellent Civ V mod :lol:. Was disappointed when the Wheel of Time in the teaser trailer didn't have anything between Renaissance and Industrial... :p

Maybe for expansion #2? Colonies and Revolutions were a big part of that era (if you stretch it from the late 17th- early 19th centuries) and would seem to go well with the new Loyalty mechanics...
 
Happiness and Culture (and to a lesser extent tourism) would really be what determine "loyalty," right?

Not necessarily. Violence and fear have been used throughout history to ensure loyalty.



Hopefully it is a health district (Medical Branch) with apocathery, hospital and health clinic to go with the medic and supply convoy.

I don't know if we're getting it in this expansion, but I too want a medical district. Because health isn't a mechanic in this game, I think it's buildings should boost housing and its specialists should boost food. The tricky part is balancing it so that it doesn't obsolete the Neighborhood.



This is just me guessing, but I think the system is more like how the spy system works.

While we're on the subject of spies, I hope they finally update the modern graphic for spies. It's a bit silly that my 20th century secret agent is wearing literal cloak and dagger.


*face-palm* Cos that reflects reality :badcomp:
IF there needs to be a balancing, tall should get some bonuses that wide does not have. They shouldn't make tall better. They should just make sure it doesn't fall behind quite as much.

Realism has it's place in games (I say this as someone who very much appreciates immersion), but game play should always be the primary consideration. If the optimal strategy for any victory condition with any Civilization on any map is to spam/conquer as many cities as you can and the AI isn't' equipped to stop you from doing so then the game has fewer meaningful decisions at the strategic level and is less interesting for it, in my humble opinion.

And if it's realism you want, look to the British Empire or the Soviet Union for examples of real world limitations to wide play.
 
Realism has it's place in games (I say this as someone who very much appreciates immersion), but game play should always be the primary consideration. If the optimal strategy for any victory condition with any Civilization on any map is to spam/conquer as many cities as you can and the AI isn't' equipped to stop you from doing so then the game has fewer meaningful decisions at the strategic level and is less interesting for it, in my humble opinion.

And if it's realism you want, look to the British Empire or the Soviet Union for examples of real world limitations to wide play.

Granted, and I think VI has done a great job of incorporating many interesting choices when compared with previous editions. But... Civilization is a 4X game. V went away from that somewhat, which was a huge disappointment for long time players of Civ. V also had way less interesting choices in it than VI does. So a game can remain 4X and be mentally challenging.
 
I've been after this ever since the excellent Civ V mod :lol:. Was disappointed when the Wheel of Time in the teaser trailer didn't have anything between Renaissance and Industrial... :p

Maybe for expansion #2? Colonies and Revolutions were a big part of that era (if you stretch it from the late 17th- early 19th centuries) and would seem to go well with the new Loyalty mechanics...
Firaxis wasted a perfect opportunity to add the Enlightenment Era...
 
*face-palm* Cos that reflects reality :badcomp:
IF there needs to be a balancing, tall should get some bonuses that wide does not have. They shouldn't make tall better. They should just make sure it doesn't fall behind quite as much.

Exactly.

(I hope I'm gonna be able to keep this short... God knows I haven't always been able to in the past)

There are two different ways to 'balance' wide vs tall against one another. Assuming wide is better without balancing, as it means more cities, one way to balance is to penalize wide, while the other is to give bonuses to tall.

In Civilization V, we saw the balancing done by penalizing wide. To be precise, global happiness slowed down any expansion to a trickle - if you were to build one city too much in the early game, all your cities would basically stop growing. Additionally, if you happened to conquer like, two cities while you were doing fine in happiness, you took a hit of sometimes as much as thirty happiness to your balance - enough that you'd immediately have to stop conquering due to happiness problems. Might be fine on a standard map size still, but if you're looking to conquer the world on a huge map, you'll probably need to conquer sixty, seventy cities if not more - a very daunting task if happiness problems already arise at two cities.

And that's the minor of the two main penalties. The bigger one is every city owned artificially increasing the costs of any technologies or social policies you're researching. There's not much more to be said about this.

These mechanics combined created a kind of a scale of the total usefulness of your empire. If you have very few cities, then an additional city is an improvement (as you get twice as many yields from two cities as you do from one, ignoring any additional mechanics). If you have a lot of cities, however, a new city costs you more than it gets you - yes, you may gain a few culture per turn, but less than you need to compensate for that 5% increase in social policy cost. In fact, fewer cities might allow you to advance faster. This together makes for a sweet spot - less cities is worse, but so is more cities. In the case of Civ 5, which also had a bunch of social policies affecting four cities only, this sweet spot was at 4 cities - it was better than having 3, and it was also better than having 5.

The other mechanic, however, is giving bonuses to tall. First of all, bonuses to tall mean that you don't give up anything by building a new city. This means that there is never a number of cities after which a new city is a bad thing, as long as it is free; it may only give you two science, one culture and enough gold to pay it's own maintenance costs, but it still gives you two science and one culture. However, there is still a minor cost to expanding, one that is intrinsically related to Civilization's gameplay - you have to either build a settler and settle the city (worth the cost in the vast majority of the cases, which is a good thing as it means the map will fill fully) or you have to build an army, declare war, suffer a diplomatic (and happiness) penalty and go ahead and conquer a city - in quite a few more cases not worth it (assuming proper balance, let that be clear). This means that, while it is never a bad idea to expand, it may be a worse idea than doing something else - like build a wonder from that production you'd pour into your army otherwise.

Additionally, there can be bonuses specifically linked to tall. A bonus for reaching a certain size for example, or city-size depending trade route yields (sadly absent from Civ VI for the most part). These bonuses may only be accessible when building a few big cities and not spending food and production on expanding, but you're making a tradeoff - either you build a settler or you let the city grow for a size bonus - instead of getting punished for one of the decisions.

Basically, penalties are bad, bonuses and choices/tradeoffs are good.
 
In the late game, Civ V India can have a wide empire filled with populous cities with a very healthy happiness level.

It would be very interesting to have that too in R&F.
 
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