[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Well it may be cheaper to leavy CS units than building them yourself. Maybe the building could be given some sort of envoy bonus as well.

 

[AvianBritish]

To actually make use of the levy mechanic you need 3 things.
1. Lots of money.
2. To be at war or have need of units.
3. For a city state you are the suzerain of to be near your target/goal.

Now no matter who I play as, I always have tonnes of GPT no matter who I play as and tend to run a minimalist 1 unit per city army, so I can always pay to Levy and with my minimal (but defensive) standing army, of which I could (theoretically) use the additional help.

In one game which was great fun, I was playing as Frederick one one continent and my human friend was Nvemba on another continent. We were allies and Greece (his neighbour) declared war on him having higher tech and units then him, he lost a city in a couple of turns and all of his units. As soon as he lost a city and knew he has fighting a loosing battle I declared war on Greece and started sending over all of my (previously garrisoned) units over the sea to help attack and essentually recreate the D-day landing, but this would take 20 turns until I would get to the Greek shore. (I hadn't built a navy yet because I was a few turns away from completing the Venician Arsenal, but I did get it after 6 or so more turns and started churning out Frigates and Privateers).
HOWEVER, because my Kongolese ally was being decimted by AI Pericles at an alarming rate and I would not get there in time, I was unable to do anything to help. But then I realised that Auckland was the neighbour of Greece (be it, very well defended by cliffs and mountains) and I (as always) was the suzerain of them. So I Levys their army, upgraded it to my tech level and then on turn 2 started attacking the other side of Greece with them, by this point the AI had stopped attacking Kongo (they had no militery left) and started to attack my "Kiwi expeditionary forces" which I skillfully managed to keep alive and deal significant blows. Eventualy my newly created navy arrived and layed seige on the Greek coast and my dawdling army got there too and started taking back Kongo's cities and capturing some of Greece's own. (I also used this opotinunty to get the Warrior Monks achievement)
The 30 turns eventually ran out and Auckland had it's units returned to it's control but they was such a great help for me and I had levelled them up so much I bought them back again, I eventally ended the war with all of Greece and their capital ceeded to me (bar one city hidden behind mountains) which I gifted to Kongo and I kept the capital (didn't have a choice, which I find annoying).

So, the moral of the story is, I find the Levy ability useful if you have the gold and need to get into battle right at that very moment but would otherwise be unable to, whether it's because you are far away or because you don't have any units of your own. (I have used it defensively too before when I forgot to build my own army)

It's entirely situational but can be really useful.

If you have a large army yourself you normally can't afford to levy an army (and don't really need to anyway), so it is more directed to the more economic players who run a garrion army like me.

As for the Plaza's T2 buildings I will hold off building anything until I decide that:
I have too much faith and not enough military units, so will get the GMC.
I am at war and want to levy CS units, so I will get the GM
I want to play with spies to get even more gold (although the loyalty mission sounds like it will be great too!), so more oftern then not I will get the IA.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Five days!

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Have anyone spotted if barracks will give experience bonus to anti cavalry units now that the policy card will give production bonus towards anti cavalry?

Faith buying units is great - if you are generating faith and are warmongering - but otherwise useless.

Being able to faith purchase at monarchy would be pretty nice for faith powerhouses such as Norway or Japan who can purchase their unique unit if they want to.

 

[Giskler]

Have anyone spotted if barracks will give experience bonus to anti cavalry units now that the policy card will give production bonus towards anti cavalry?



Being able to faith purchase at monarchy would be pretty nice for faith powerhouses such as Norway or Japan who can purchase their unique unit if they want to.

It doesn't in the preview build at least.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

It doesn't in the preview build at least.

That is a bit strange.

 

[Giskler]

That is a bit strange.

Keep in mind the preview build is now old news and a lot of balance changes have been made in the past weeks leading up to release.

Edit: To clairfy, the change to the Feudal Contract policy card is NOT in the preview build and was spotted in the dev livestreams after the preview build was released. Hence, any changes to Barracks that might have been made have not been seen, and most likely will not be seen until the expansion is released.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Edit: To clairfy, the change to the Feudal Contract policy card is NOT in the preview build and was spotted in the dev livestreams after the preview build was released. Hence, any changes to Barracks that might have been made have not been seen, and most likely will not be seen until the expansion is released.

That is good to know

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

One of the problems with levy is that city-state units often require upgrades to be useful, so it really costs a lot more than advertised.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

One of the problems with levy is that city-state units often require upgrades to be useful, so it really costs a lot more than advertised.

On the other hand you can save on upkeep and the need to produce units (expensive to produce but cheap to upgrade). Getting large amount of gold per turn is not that hard if you build up your comercial hubs and plan out your trade routes well to take advantage of trading posts.

 

[indradiva]

Sorry to interrupt you but has anyone seen the Normal Age dedication of Wish you were here? I`m curious to know how do you earn Era Score with it.

 

[Trengilly]

The new loyalty system will make it more difficult to establish a foothold on another continent, so levying a CS to provide a base of operations and some extra units could be more useful than before.

Actually come to think of it, in quite a few games there is a well placed CS with a good number of units that would make an excellent levy at some point. Its just that with the AI being so poor at warfare I've never needed the help from a levy.

You could protect your allied CS when its attacked by levying their units - upgrading them as necessary, getting the +4 combat bonus, and then using their unity effectively.

 

[thecrazyscot]

I think I'm going to try a game with a minimal defensive force and rely on trade, gold, and City-State levies almost entirely for my military. If you have one or two near your homeland you should have enough to defend against any invasion, and if you offensively suzerain strategically placed city-states you should be able to decimate the enemy civilization while their army is away trying to invade you.

Sounds really fun, actually. And an excellent way for a peaceful player to get an army only when needed. I really like the situational nature of the Government Plaza buildings...they really allow you flexibility in choosing different playstyles.

Also, to add, having a tiny military but boatloads of gold to levy your city-states sounds like a really good way to bait the AI into attacking you and then swiftly turning the tables on them to minimize warmongering penalties.

 

[Thormodr]

On the other hand you can save on upkeep and the need to produce units (expensive to produce but cheap to upgrade). Getting large amount of gold per turn is not that hard if you build up your comercial hubs and plan out your trade routes well to take advantage of trading posts.

Kind of sounds like Carthage and their mercenary armies. That could be a really fun style of play. Hmmm...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Kind of sounds like Carthage and their mercenary armies. That could be a really fun style of play. Hmmm...

In fact, since Carthage at its peak relied almost entirely on mercenaries, a Carthaginian Civ should have a 'buff' to Levying City States and/or a way to 'convert' Barbarian units to their side.
After all, Hannibal's army in Italy was almost entirely composed of Gaulic and Iberian/Celiberian infantry and Numidian cavalry: in game terms, almost nothing from Carthage itself, and predominantly from 'Barbarian' or City State forces.

Keep your Mountain Travel Unique for Suvorov: Mercenary Armies is Carthage's real 'land bonus'.

 

[Magil]

Have anyone spotted if barracks will give experience bonus to anti cavalry units now that the policy card will give production bonus towards anti cavalry?

For the record, the Barracks does currently affect anti-cavalry units. It just doesn't say so in the tooltip. From Buildings.xml:

       <!--Barracks Unit Requirements-->
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>BARRACKS_UNIT_REQUIREMENTS</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIREMENT_UNIT_IS_MELEE</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>BARRACKS_UNIT_REQUIREMENTS</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIREMENT_UNIT_IS_RANGED</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>BARRACKS_UNIT_REQUIREMENTS</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIREMENT_UNIT_IS_ANTI_CAV</RequirementId>
       </Row>

 

[Disgustipated]

I don't think I have every levied units, except perhaps for the achievement.

Isn't it only for like 20 turns? Too short to be of any use. Though if the city state is directly adjacent to the enemy city, perhaps it could have limited use. But I doubt you'd have enough time to do a full conquest. And why go to war if you aren't aiming for full conquest? Might be useful if you get caught with your pants down, but that doesn't exactly happen in this game for me (not like Civ 4, oh the stories...)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

For the record, the Barracks does currently affect anti-cavalry units. It just doesn't say so in the tooltip. From Buildings.xml:

It's actually the same thing for Siege Units and the Stables.

 

[ferretbacon]

One of the problems with levy is that city-state units often require upgrades to be useful, so it really costs a lot more than advertised.

Probably an unpopular suggestion, but seeing as how the AI gets all sorts of perks to prop them up, I wouldn't be opposed to AI players and city-states having their units auto-upgrade for no cost when they unlock a better unit. Maybe one unit per turn so that if you're in a war with them they don't all turn from Musketmen>Infantry instantly.

It would be a bit unfair, but, honestly, preferable to fighting against AI that's not only incompetent but also using outdated units.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

For the record, the Barracks does currently affect anti-cavalry units. It just doesn't say so in the tooltip. From Buildings.xml:

       <!--Barracks Unit Requirements-->
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>BARRACKS_UNIT_REQUIREMENTS</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIREMENT_UNIT_IS_MELEE</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>BARRACKS_UNIT_REQUIREMENTS</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIREMENT_UNIT_IS_RANGED</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>BARRACKS_UNIT_REQUIREMENTS</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIREMENT_UNIT_IS_ANTI_CAV</RequirementId>
       </Row>

It's actually the same thing for Siege Units and the Stables.

Maybe time to update the tooltip of the barracks and stable.