That is an incredibly hilarious mental image.
[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread
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Boris Gudenuf
Deity
That is an incredibly hilarious mental image.
Given that most of the US Army's combat helicopters are part of the Armored Cavalry, which used to be the horse cavalry (up until early 1942 the US Army still had a mounted cavalry division) you can be sure that at least one end of the horse is piloting a lot of those helicopters...
On a more serious note, the more I thought about it, why not turn the Helicopter into a Support Unit? It could be stacked with land units to enhance tremendously their anti-mounted (anti-tank) or combat factors OR allow a regular reconnaissance or melee unit to 'jump' (air mobile) 3 - 4 tiles, OR, if stacked with a (surface) naval unit, it increases their defense factor against missiles and aircraft and increases their own range (if ranged already).
That would much more accurately reflect the actual use of helicopters in the modern (Information Era) military.
Ondolindë
Emperor
Ok, but please can someone teach them how to fly over bodies of water? Horses are pretty intelligent.
stealth_nsk
Deity
The reasons why helicopters are cavalry are:
1. The game needs some late light cavalry unit for upgrade line. Yes, it could be Light Tank, or something like this, but between Tanks and Mech. Infantry there's little space for light cavalry class units.
2. More important, late units which don't upgrade from anything have huge disadvantage. Regardless of their implementation, they are much less likely to be built.
3. Having amphibious unit has its own problems in terms of gameplay. If it can end turn over the water, attacking it becomes big question. If it can't - the helicopter becomes weaker than regular land units which could embark. Yes, it can be something "if helicopter ends its turn over the water, it becomes embarked", but that's even more weird than current situation and could cause further weirdness in different cases.
Disgustipated
Deity
Also many U.S. cavalry units did become helicopter units at least in the case of the Marine Corps (see the movie We Were Soldiers, I love that movie). Still it does feel a little weird regardless.
thecrazyscot
Spiffy
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Or, just add a new unit class that can hover and treats all terrain as 1 movement. You can balance it several different ways: have it suffer attrition outside of friendly territory, suffer a large strength reduction vs anti-air and fighters, etc.
Helicopters have fundamentally different capabilities from any unit that came before, so why not take advantage of that and open up some new gameplay opportunities?
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Since, on paper, the US Air Force had a monopoly on fixed-wing aircraft, the US Army had to embrace helicopters to have anything of their own in the air...
Of course, that's only one interpretation. In fact, helicopters went through some of the same development cycle that regular aircraft went through: the first helicopters were developed with an eye towards taking over the short-range reconnaissance and artillery-spotting duties that light aircraft had done, just as the first aircraft were regarded as 'eyes in the sky' to take over the recon duties of light cavalry (before WWI).
By the 1950s the helicopter had taken on the roles of medical evacuation (pioneered in the Korean War - MASH was based on a memoir, not fiction!) and short-range 'insertion' of combat troops. The conversion of the US 101st Airborne Division into a helicopter-borne 'Air Mobile' Division and the creation of the 1st Air Cavalry Division, as much as anything, provided a pair of divisional organizations to experiment under fire with everything that could be done with helicopters, in Vietnam. That experience led directly to the provision of helicopter 'gun ships' so that helicopters could both insert troops into the battle and support them with on-hand firepower of all kinds, and get them out again if things went FUBAR.
Point is, Helicopters were certainly an extension of the Light Cavalry, but they also had entirely different capabilities than light cavalry of any kind ever had. That capability is sadly lacking in the game, but since the Support Units in Civ VI have all kinds of variable capabilities, that, it seems to me, is the best place to put Helicopters.
The Light Cavalry line right now jumps from Classical (Horseman) to Industrial (Cavalry) to Atomic (Helicopter) Eras, and people complain about the Classical - Industrial Gap constantly in these Forums. Move the Helicopter to Support and take advantage of that to revise the 'Light Cavalry' as well:
Classical Era: Horseman as now
Renaissance Era: Hussars - the most distinctive light cavalry of Europe in the 18th and early 19th centuries.
Modern Era: Armored Car - a very fast ground unit, but very sensitive to terrain like Rainforest, Woods or Marsh
Information Era: Stryker - the modern multi-wheeled armored car/armored personnel carrier/weapons platform. Fastest ground unit in the game.
This would both give better functionality to the 'Light Cavalry', and give the game some really striking graphics - Hussars were some of the most flamboyant combat troops that ever saw gun smoke, and mid-20th century armored cars came in a fabulous variety, from 'Dingo' 4-wheeled light types to cannon-bearing 8-wheeled 'heavies'. And, I might add, most of the European Armored Car units kept their Cavalry titles: the 11th Hussars of the British Army was one of their best armored car raiding and recon units in the Western Desert in 1941 - 42, so you wouldn't even have to rename the unit when it gets Upgraded!
stealth_nsk
Deity
The main thing here is the question "Why?". All new units in R&F have precise and clear gameplay goals. In contrast, helicopters, from pure gameplay point of view are totally ok. Yes, they are kind of wrong in terms of immersion, but pure immersion isn't worth all the hassle around new unit class with unique movement rules, etc. That's the thing where mods shine - they are able to fulfill different visions of immersion for players who desperately need it.
rattatatouille
Warlord
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Something I just remembered:
If, say, you annex a City-State, and you lose it due to low loyalty, will it flip back to a City-State or will it become a Free City?
If, say, you annex a City-State, and you lose it due to low loyalty, will it flip back to a City-State or will it become a Free City?
stealth_nsk
Deity
So, it will be able to attack land units from lake tiles and other non-ranged land units will be unable to attack it.
sonicmyst
Emperor
I suppose it will become a Free City until another civ flips it and decides to liberate it.
Katakanja
Emperor
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- Oct 17, 2016
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- 1,258
Well, not like you have much effect shooting at Helicopters with rifles in real life is it?
Disgustipated
Deity
Well, not like you have much effect shooting at Helicopters with rifles in real life is it?
Rambo would like to have some words with you.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Well, not like you have much effect shooting at Helicopters with rifles in real life is it?
I'm speaking about gameplay only here.
Been a while since I saw it, but I believe he used a minigun.
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