Rise and Rule for Civ3:Conquests
- Thread starter Isak
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Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Not much. They are not affected at all from any Government-related speed bonus, and work always at their very own speed (50% of 'Normal', and I *think* that does consider 'Worker Strength').
The same is true for unmodded; but:
The 'Doubles Worker Speed' tech flag causes Slaves to care for Gov boni. And no tech in RaR doubles Worker speed, deliberately (Government balance).
I do upgrade most Slaves, though; even if the worker strength doesn't apply, the better movement is always worth it.
Feel free to test the Worker strength thing
.
The same is true for unmodded; but:
The 'Doubles Worker Speed' tech flag causes Slaves to care for Gov boni. And no tech in RaR doubles Worker speed, deliberately (Government balance).
I do upgrade most Slaves, though; even if the worker strength doesn't apply, the better movement is always worth it.
Feel free to test the Worker strength thing
.
Doc Tsiolkovski said:Uh, that's absolutely realistic. Remember, neither kautchuk nor petroleum where worth more than a WM equivalant in the 19th century.
What could it be used for? Chewing Gums, and a horribly smelling lamp oil...
Of course, once someone invented a gasoline engine, and vulcanization, things changed drastically.
Wasn't suggesting it wasn't realistic, just a balance issue and an exploit. Trades for resources getting very expensive is realistic too. Personally I don't mind the way it is, varying resource prices is realistic, and I think the balance issues and exploits it causes are worth it to get some realistic resource requirements on improvements/wonders.
Gasoline to run the internal combustion engine was only chosen because it was an unwanted byproduct of manufacturing kerosene. And so much kerosene was manufactured that the supply of cheap, unwanted gasoline wouldn't run out at all.
Once I'm at peace/obliterated the civ the worker was from, I add it as population. Partly I prefer to keep my workers as efficient as possible, and partly because there's no visual cue as to which workers are mine and which are foreign, I find it annoying having to check how many workers I've assigned to jobs. (i.e. 5 1/2 workers on a 6 turn job) One mistake I won't be making again is adding a barbarian slave to a city. Unhappiness due to 'stop the agression against our country' for the rest of the game. Oops.
One question I thought of and forgot to ask, when does the amount of culture for a sacrifice change? I think it starts at 2 culture, but sacrificing later in the game resulted in 20 culture points by sacrificing 1 slave. I couldn't find anything in the civpedia that gave any of these values or when they changed.
One question I thought of and forgot to ask, when does the amount of culture for a sacrifice change? I think it starts at 2 culture, but sacrificing later in the game resulted in 20 culture points by sacrificing 1 slave. I couldn't find anything in the civpedia that gave any of these values or when they changed.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Shield cost is the determing factor for sacrifice.You get the doubled shield value as culture points.If an improvment with the "double sacrifice effect"-flag is in place (sacrifice altar in RaR), you will get shields*4 (of course only until research of Monotheism, which makes the altar obsolete)
Ta. So slaves produce 2, workers produce 20. So spend the 27 gold to upgrade slaves to workers before sacrificing them wherever possible. 2 culture isn't that useful, instant border expansion is very useful.
RE: Slaves
I always upgrade them cause they work faster but obviously not as fast as pure worker types. So maybe it takes 24 of them do one thing, after upgrade now it's 18 of them.
I typically just stack all my slaves together in their own stack and use them for things not so urgent. Once pollution starts they are my clear pollution gang put on auto clear pollution. Once I've ugpraded everything to rails and such then I assimulate the slaves back into the population and the regular workers can take care of polution.
RE: Incense
More then once the lack of incense has really hurt. I will beeline right for it with a settler as soon as I see it. I have gone entire games without temples and such though. Just need more wonders. Maybe having incense required only for temples or something would be better. But then temples are required for bascillica and cathedrals as well as some wonders so maybe that doesn't work either. Either way, I certainly make it as big a priority to get incense as I do Iron or Coal.
I always upgrade them cause they work faster but obviously not as fast as pure worker types. So maybe it takes 24 of them do one thing, after upgrade now it's 18 of them.
I typically just stack all my slaves together in their own stack and use them for things not so urgent. Once pollution starts they are my clear pollution gang put on auto clear pollution. Once I've ugpraded everything to rails and such then I assimulate the slaves back into the population and the regular workers can take care of polution.RE: Incense
More then once the lack of incense has really hurt. I will beeline right for it with a settler as soon as I see it. I have gone entire games without temples and such though. Just need more wonders. Maybe having incense required only for temples or something would be better. But then temples are required for bascillica and cathedrals as well as some wonders so maybe that doesn't work either. Either way, I certainly make it as big a priority to get incense as I do Iron or Coal.
"A game balance problem is, though, that once a resource is required for a Wonder/Imp, it gets insanely expensive to trade for (just compare Iron and Horses in unmodded)."
That's OK - this creates more strategic opportunities. My main goal is to get to a game whee you can't build everything in every city, which would help the AI, as they are, shall we say, developmentally challenged.
Also enhances replayability.
One other idea in this line (enhancing replayability) would be civ-specific wonder add-ons. Say, if the Egyptians build the Pyramids, they get to build the Valley of the Dead. The implied rarity of this happening would allow some really funky effects.
That's OK - this creates more strategic opportunities. My main goal is to get to a game whee you can't build everything in every city, which would help the AI, as they are, shall we say, developmentally challenged.
Also enhances replayability.
One other idea in this line (enhancing replayability) would be civ-specific wonder add-ons. Say, if the Egyptians build the Pyramids, they get to build the Valley of the Dead. The implied rarity of this happening would allow some really funky effects.
Pfeffersack
Deity
I agree it adds strategic depth, but I doubt it will help the AI - ressources under AI control are usually an easy target for the human player.Cut off from ressources, the AI
will have even more problems.And IMHO, RaR is already the mod about choice.
Just because there are tons of stuff to build.
Civ specific wonder-addons are an interesting concept, but I'm not sure if it is possible with the CivIII engine.The only way I can imagine is making this addon wonder available with the "Being civilization X"-tech and set the (basic) GW as prequesite. Then there is the decison if the addon is a GW or SW...SW would have the advantage, that the addon is destroyed if the city is conquered by another Civ.
However, even if this works in theory, I'm still doubtful if it works in the game.I experimented once with Civ-locked techs and Wonders in the Pacific Conquest, but for some reason it was impossible to make a wonder available only to special civs via tech.It was quite along time ago and I'm not entirely sure if the problem occurs for both SW and GWs, but I remember that it didn't play out the way I want it to have.You can do it with ressources in a scenario...but that is of course no option on random maps.
BTW, CivIII has this idea already in it in a more simple way - you can assign wonders to special traits, which can trigger than the GA for special civs.
will have even more problems.And IMHO, RaR is already the mod about choice.
Just because there are tons of stuff to build.
Civ specific wonder-addons are an interesting concept, but I'm not sure if it is possible with the CivIII engine.The only way I can imagine is making this addon wonder available with the "Being civilization X"-tech and set the (basic) GW as prequesite. Then there is the decison if the addon is a GW or SW...SW would have the advantage, that the addon is destroyed if the city is conquered by another Civ.
However, even if this works in theory, I'm still doubtful if it works in the game.I experimented once with Civ-locked techs and Wonders in the Pacific Conquest, but for some reason it was impossible to make a wonder available only to special civs via tech.It was quite along time ago and I'm not entirely sure if the problem occurs for both SW and GWs, but I remember that it didn't play out the way I want it to have.You can do it with ressources in a scenario...but that is of course no option on random maps.
BTW, CivIII has this idea already in it in a more simple way - you can assign wonders to special traits, which can trigger than the GA for special civs.
mikehunt
Warlord
been playing some more. sorry, no time to look back to see if this was covered, but I noticed an issue with Iron Frigates. The civilopedia entry doesn't really match the actual unit and seems to have some errors in it. And is it normal for that unit to treat water like road? mine say they have 8 movement but will go 16 squares. Another ship does that too, clippers I think.
still really enjoying the mod though, and I love the iron frigate's bombard strength. way better than even the battleships in normal civ
still really enjoying the mod though, and I love the iron frigate's bombard strength. way better than even the battleships in normal civ
stachnie
Theorist
sausnebb said:
Very inefficient. Your domestic Workers have capacity 2 (non-industrious) or 3 (industrious), Laborers 50% more (3 or 4). Captured Workers/Slaves have capacity 1, Laborers theoretically 1.5 but it is rounded down to 1. However, if you are industrious, captured Workers/Slaves upgraded to Laborers have capacity 2.
Best regards,
Slawomir Stachniewicz.
EDIT: and I do not know what about Government bonus, I tend to stay in Democracy almost entire game.
stachnie
Theorist
mikehunt said:
Most of Industrial Age ships and (perhaps) all Modern ones are ATAR. It is not written in Civilopedia but it is possible to figure it out if e.g. Civilopedia says it moves 16 tiles per turn and it has only 8 MP.
Best regards,
Slawomir Stachniewicz.
stachnie
Theorist
Pfeffersack said:
A nice exploit
I think enslavement should be posible only after direct combat, not after lethal bombardment. But I do not know if it would be possible to implement...Best regards,
Slawomir Stachniewicz.
Pfeffersack
Deity
The reason why the modern ships have ATAR is that ocean and sea squares eat up two movement - ATAR makes it possible to implement ships which travel reagrdless of ocean depth with the same speed.
stachnie
Theorist
Pfeffersack said:
Hmmm... but IIRC some other ships just ignore sea and ocean penalties?
S.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Yes, thats true.But is has an influence on how the seafaring and wonder boni on ship movement work, too.ATAR means 2 tiles movement bonus, while ignoring movement bonus gives only 1 tile movement bonus.So modern ships get a greater bonus.
"RaR is already the mod about choice."
This can be overdone, as we've seen in some of the SG's where people are just overwhelmed. I know the mod pretty well now, and still feel at times like I'm lost in a Super Walmart.
I think the real strength of RandR is variety and depth, which could be preserved while introducing some clutter-reduction. Low-hanging fruit, like the 4 redundant pollution reducers, is just one instance of a wider problem. Not really a problem, just an opportunity to make the mod more appealing to a wider variety of players.
This can be overdone, as we've seen in some of the SG's where people are just overwhelmed. I know the mod pretty well now, and still feel at times like I'm lost in a Super Walmart.
I think the real strength of RandR is variety and depth, which could be preserved while introducing some clutter-reduction. Low-hanging fruit, like the 4 redundant pollution reducers, is just one instance of a wider problem. Not really a problem, just an opportunity to make the mod more appealing to a wider variety of players.
Hmmm, well thanks.Doc Tsiolkovski said:Not much. They are not affected at all from any Government-related speed bonus, and work always at their very own speed (50% of 'Normal', and I *think* that does consider 'Worker Strength').
The same is true for unmodded; but:
The 'Doubles Worker Speed' tech flag causes Slaves to care for Gov boni. And no tech in RaR doubles Worker speed, deliberately (Government balance).
I do upgrade most Slaves, though; even if the worker strength doesn't apply, the better movement is always worth it.
Feel free to test the Worker strength thing
I'm just wondering, when I build rails with the foreign laborers they use horrible 24 turns on plains and grassland... Then I try the same with my own costly laborers, and 24 turns it is... What's going on?
Pfeffersack
Deity
What version you are using? If you are using still 1.02 (or a game started with the 1.02 biq.), this might be due a bug.I'm no expert at worker issues, but my experience is they are slower, even if upgraded.
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