(Rising Tides) Hybrid-Affinities

[GenEngineer]

@TheMarshmallowBear - Hybrid air units wouldn't be unique, from a mechanical standpoint at least. The upgrade path and perks shown for the other units mean that it would actually be exactly the same except for aesthetics. If I say 'here is a tier 4 marine, strength 48, move of 2, costs 230 production, with +15% on the attack, +20% if next to a friendly unit, and +30% when flanking,' you cannot tell from that description (which should tell all relevant mechanical details) whether the unit I am referring to is an Apostle (pure Supremacy) or an Eidolon (Supremacy/Purity).

That's why not knowing why they aren't in is like an itch we need scratched. A pattern has been set up (everything get's hybrid), then violated (except planes), and it is human nature to try and complete the pattern or see why it was not completed. Even if I wind up not liking the particular explanation (like if they say they thought it didn't matter), I would still like to know the reason, especially because it may determine feasibility of it being added later (patch shortly after release or in 3rd expansion) or modded in, should it wind up being something in a deeper system we haven't been considering.

As far as the value of aesthetics goes, that depends more on the type of player you are. From a strict 'How do I win most consistently on the highest difficulty" viewpoint, aesthetics are a low priority. Not so low that you'd be happy with just a text and numbers based game, methinks, but lower than a lot of the other elements.

For someone like me, though, I absolutely love the idea of playing a 6-person game where each player has a completely different aesthetic to their army and cities, where they play completely differently because the affinities make them want different things. So while I agree that Hybrid Cities and, to a lesser extent, Hybrid Aircraft, are irrelevant from a mechanical sense, they're still something I'd like to see in the game.

Don't get me wrong, from what I've seen, I'm very excited with what's in the game and I'm looking forward to the release, but that doesn't mean I don't wonder about those details (especially since, as they are so low priority, i'm not certain they won't be in the game at launch - as a low priority, they might well be added in at the last minute)

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

@TheMarshmallowBear - Hybrid air units wouldn't be unique, from a mechanical standpoint at least. The upgrade path and perks shown for the other units mean that it would actually be exactly the same except for aesthetics. If I say 'here is a tier 4 marine, strength 48, move of 2, costs 230 production, with +15% on the attack, +20% if next to a friendly unit, and +30% when flanking,' you cannot tell from that description (which should tell all relevant mechanical details) whether the unit I am referring to is an Apostle (pure Supremacy) or an Eidolon (Supremacy/Purity).

That's why not knowing why they aren't in is like an itch we need scratched. A pattern has been set up (everything get's hybrid), then violated (except planes), and it is human nature to try and complete the pattern or see why it was not completed. Even if I wind up not liking the particular explanation (like if they say they thought it didn't matter), I would still like to know the reason, especially because it may determine feasibility of it being added later (patch shortly after release or in 3rd expansion) or modded in, should it wind up being something in a deeper system we haven't been considering.

As far as the value of aesthetics goes, that depends more on the type of player you are. From a strict 'How do I win most consistently on the highest difficulty" viewpoint, aesthetics are a low priority. Not so low that you'd be happy with just a text and numbers based game, methinks, but lower than a lot of the other elements.

For someone like me, though, I absolutely love the idea of playing a 6-person game where each player has a completely different aesthetic to their army and cities, where they play completely differently because the affinities make them want different things. So while I agree that Hybrid Cities and, to a lesser extent, Hybrid Aircraft, are irrelevant from a mechanical sense, they're still something I'd like to see in the game.

Don't get me wrong, from what I've seen, I'm very excited with what's in the game and I'm looking forward to the release, but that doesn't mean I don't wonder about those details (especially since, as they are so low priority, i'm not certain they won't be in the game at launch - as a low priority, they might well be added in at the last minute)

If you have a solution to hybrids you are more than welcome to design the hybrid air units with their own promotions that don't conflict with one another.

Regarding the art for cities, I never said I didn't want them but to me they are not a priority, I always end up not noticing how my cities change that much anyway and it's not something that from a basic gameplay point of view really is needed, even from a role-playing or immersion I don't think people just spend 5 minutes zoomed into their cities, the city banner has always been distracting for me.

 

[GenEngineer]

??? I'm saying the solutions already in the game for planes.
PURITY/SUPREMACY: 400 Production, 46 Ranged Strength, 6 Range, +90% on Interception, and either Automatically heal every turn OR 1 free rebase every turn.
PURITY/HARMONY: 400 Production, 46 Ranged Strength, 6 Range, +90% on Interception, and either Automatically heal every turn OR +30% chance to scatter attacked unit to another tile
HARMONY/SUPREMACY:400 Production, 46 Ranged Strength, 6 Range, +90% on Interception, and either +30% chance to scatter attacked unit to another tile OR 1 free rebase every turn
Requires Level 13 in each affinity


The mechanical design is readily solved with the pattern established. That's why we want to know if it's a model design thing, or a time crunch, or what, because mechanically, they've established a pattern that already answers the question.

 

[Meyerm]

It's probably too late for Rising Tide, but I hope that there's another expansion or dlc that changes visual appearance of ALL units, cities, and improvements for not only baseline affinities but hybrid affinities as well. Just like era advancement in civ5 and (I assume) previous civs. I would honestly pay for a dlc which has the sole function of doing that.

 

[poom3619]

It's probably too late for Rising Tide, but I hope that there's another expansion or dlc that changes visual appearance of ALL units, cities, and improvements for not only baseline affinities but hybrid affinities as well. Just like era advancement in civ5 and (I assume) previous civs. I would honestly pay for a dlc which has the sole function of doing that.

I think that can be a mod and someone probably made one. Too bad people rarely donate to modders.

 

[ZTZaorish]

It's probably too late for Rising Tide, but I hope that there's another expansion or dlc that changes visual appearance of ALL units, cities, and improvements for not only baseline affinities but hybrid affinities as well. Just like era advancement in civ5 and (I assume) previous civs. I would honestly pay for a dlc which has the sole function of doing that.

What exactly do you mean? I guess they could do one to convert all the tiles and such. But in terms of the units, they are already affinity colored? Do you want different looking version of the same affinity? Or what?

To be honest though this kind of stuff should have just be included in the base game anyways, but w/e i guess.

 

[Westwall]

I think you're expecting too much, I seriously do.

And I think you're settling for less.

I doubt that any explanation would be acceptable to you.

What's unacceptable to me is that we haven't gotten any explanation.

Beyond that, you're just trying to put words in my mouth.

"Well you would just reject it anyway!"

Seriously? That's your excuse?

 

[SupremacyKing2]

And I think you're settling for less.

No, I am "settling" for the game that the devs have made for us. You are the one that seems to be demanding that the devs give you more.

What's unacceptable to me is that we haven't gotten any explanation.

First of all, you are the one that is assuming that every generic unit must get its own hybrid upgrade and therefore are demanding an explanation for why the devs are not meeting your standard. Second, did you see my post in the lazy gamer thread? I posted the full quote from McDonough. I think if you look at it in context, the devs did give us an explanation. So, don't say that we did not get an explanation.

 

[Westwall]

No, I am "settling" for the game that the devs have made for us. You are the one that seems to be demanding that the devs give you more.

That's not directed at you, so I'm not sure why you're responding to it.

First of all, you are the one that is assuming that every generic unit must get its own hybrid upgrade and therefore are demanding an explanation for why the devs are not meeting your standard. Second, did you see my post in the lazy gamer thread? I posted the full quote from McDonough. I think if you look at it in context, the devs did give us an explanation. So, don't say that we did not get an explanation.

Already responded to that but I'll post it again here if you like.

It seems like they covered nearly every unit class under the sun (and then some), so I'm not sure what qualifies air units as not being generic enough or being particularly special compared to everything else.

Unique hybrid units certainly aren't fundamental classes.

This isn't me being unsatisfied with the answer, but the answer itself doesn't really add up. And since it seemed more like an off-hand comment, I'll continue to wait and see if they say more on this.

Is it a deal-breaker for me? No. But I'd still like to hear their reasoning for why air units and submarines aren't generic enough.

There's certainly nothing generic to me about the stealth Geliopod.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

That's not directed at you, so I'm not sure why you're responding to it.

oops. Saw two quotes and my name and I responded too quickly.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Already responded to that but I'll post it again here if you like.

See my answer in the other thread.

 

[Galgus]

I think that can be a mod and someone probably made one. Too bad people rarely donate to modders.

This is why I'd like a sort of formalized "bounty" commission system for steam workshop.

Basically people would post what they want modded, post a some money as a reward for it, and a modder could collect the money by filling the request.

Once the mod is completed, it would be free for all to download.
____________________________________________

Without any kind of formalized system, it's a bit hard to arrange that from a crowdfunding angle.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Mechanically, have they talked about changing how affinity level costs are determined (because right now it locks you into one dominant affinity, the others are far too expensive to advance)

 

[ZTZaorish]

That's not directed at you, so I'm not sure why you're responding to it.



Already responded to that but I'll post it again here if you like.

It seems like they covered nearly every unit class under the sun (and then some), so I'm not sure what qualifies air units as not being generic enough or being particularly special compared to everything else.

Unique hybrid units certainly aren't fundamental classes.

This isn't me being unsatisfied with the answer, but the answer itself doesn't really add up. And since it seemed more like an off-hand comment, I'll continue to wait and see if they say more on this.

Is it a deal-breaker for me? No. But I'd still like to hear their reasoning for why air units and submarines aren't generic enough.

There's certainly nothing generic to me about the stealth Geliopod.

I certainly feel that advertising hybrid affinities that are not as in depth as pure affinities has mislead us. They feel half finished because of this, and I feel the same as westwall in this respect. I wish they at least matched the original ones, so they don't feel like "lite" versions of the original ones.

I would love to play them throughout the entirety of my gameplay experience.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Mechanically, have they talked about changing how affinity level costs are determined (because right now it locks you into one dominant affinity, the others are far too expensive to advance)

Almost every tech has an affinity. so its' going to be a mix-match for a long haul. I'd say there's simply more opportunities to gain levels/experience via tech now than it was before. even the first ring techs have affinity levels and that's just on base level.

 

[Meyerm]

What exactly do you mean? I guess they could do one to convert all the tiles and such. But in terms of the units, they are already affinity colored? Do you want different looking version of the same affinity? Or what?

To be honest though this kind of stuff should have just be included in the base game anyways, but w/e i guess.

I said ALL units and improvements. Workers, farms, trade units, colonists (maybe), etc. Just like in civ5 how improvements and civilian units change appearance when you advance to certain eras, no upgrade, just an aesthetic change.

 

[ZTZaorish]

Yes, i understand what you mean in terms of ALL. But do you mean that all tiles/building/whatever would change, AND the affinity units would get a reskin as well?

Or do you just mean, a DLC to put an affinity feel to everything that isn't skinned yet?

 

[Meyerm]

Yes, i understand what you mean in terms of ALL. But do you mean that all tiles/building/whatever would change, AND the affinity units would get a reskin as well?

Or do you just mean, a DLC to put an affinity feel to everything that isn't skinned yet?

The latter, but doing that to affinity units too would be interesting. Even if they just changed the color scheme to match the hybrid. Anyways...


As far as specifics, I was thinking of a system where level 6 (or 8) in any affinity causes everything to change appearance. If another affinity reaches that level, appearance changes to hybridized. If all 3 are above that level, appearance will match the strongest 2.

Which makes me think of something else. What about a perfect balance of all 3?

 

[Lord Tirian]

I said ALL units and improvements. Workers, farms, trade units, colonists (maybe), etc. Just like in civ5 how improvements and civilian units change appearance when you advance to certain eras, no upgrade, just an aesthetic change.

The funny thing is: they already did a re-colour for embarked units. Same model but painted in the affinity colours. It adds a nice little bit of atmosphere.

I don't understand why they didn't do that at least for the trade units, colonists and perhaps workers - and then do the same for the affinity units. Not brilliant, but good enough, in my opinion.

 

[ZTZaorish]

Which makes me think of something else. What about a perfect balance of all 3?

Do you mean in terms of look? What would it look like if you balanced all 3 equally? At that point I think it would look like one of the hybrids. (The first two affinities to reach that level being represented via a hybrid color) So if you went supremacy/purity 6 first then leveled your harmony last, you would just see the hybrid color for supremacy purity.

Adding a 3 color scheme for a hybrid of all 3 ideologies would imply a 3 way hybrid, which in my opinion won't happen. You may find that Supremacy/Harmony is kind of already filling this ideology to a small degree.