(Rising Tides) So why should I build water cities anyway?

[Veras]

Some months after the annoucement of water cities, I'm constantly being struck with the question on the title of this thread. I mean, I know there's a lot of new water resorces that will often be to far from the land to grab and some time there would be no land available, but besides that, I don't feel much like building them.

Right, this could be just my playstyle, but one thing that is bothering me a lot on the last videos is the fact that the AI frequently seems to be ignoring land. They make planetfall on land, send their explores right into the water and then settle water cities very close to land, often in not-so-good spots.

Worse than that, the devs and some other youtubers are doing the same. After 80 turns you look at the mini map and there is a lot of land close to their colonies under the fog. I would never ignore that amount of good land like that.

Most of the time when they settle a water city next to the coast I think "I would settle that city on the coast, not next to it". After all, water cities are weaker, more vulnerable to aggression and they don't grow.

And it is difficult to imagine why humanity would travel hundreds of years in space to live on space-limited boats while there's a lot of land available.

 

[GenEngineer]

On the part of the videos, it's because it's new and they're being encouraged to show that off. Beyond that, the question could easily become "Why should I build Land cities anyway?" A land city grows by culture and has higher base strength, yes, but it's static and loses out on the ocean city only buildings (AFAIK, there are no 'Land-only" buildings). Unless you start artists, the culture expansion is actually very slow in non-capitals, so AI's whose loadout is randomly chosen might be better off settling in the water where they can move. Choosing a location is more of an AI issue in general, but there is no reason to value land over water.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Why build water cities? To get water only resources, to help your navy control vital water trade routes, to deny the enemy access to a part of the ocean close to your land cities, to potentially move those water cities closer to an enemy coast to support an amphibious invasion.

 

[Gorbles]

Wait for the game to come out and see if they take your fancy. They're meant to be an alternate option to settling on-land, not a dominant option.

 

[Barathor]

I'll just go where the resources are. Though, I'm sure in my first game, I'll be favoring water cities a bit more for something fun and new.

Regarding water cities "not growing" or rather growing more slowly than land cities (which I've heard before), why is that so? Is there a unique modifier or does it simply have to do with the base terrain yields? Just because the city will be surrounded by mostly plain-equivalent yields in the shallow water terrain, I don't think that'll hurt its growth, it's all about the resources (especially earlier when you're more restricted by health and can only work so many tiles anyway). It looks like there are plenty of different bonus resources which add food to tiles. Even production focused water resources will either be on a 1F/1P tile or a 1F/1E tile. On land, you get them on tiles with no food, like hills, for example. Also, will water cities be able to build water refineries and did they change water refineries?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Build your cities in the best spots to have the most resources, regardless of if they are in the water or on land. Either way is a viable alternative. Do both even.

 

[The Naug]

Sometimes there's only one or no good spots to expand at land without either going to war or clearing out a whole province worth of aliens and miasma. Then putting a city or two off the coast seems like a great option.

 

[Ryika]

At the moment it looks to me like it's a very good idea to avoid water-cities if possible (assuming a defensive playstyle). Low growth, low defense, harder to secure trade routes... and spending production to acquire new tiles means delaying everything else... with no obvious upside as far as I know. Well, ocean-only buildings maybe, but that's about it.

So overall I agree that ocean cities look like a "bad deal" - I assume it will mostly be a backup-option for people who are looking for quick, efficient games. Which is a bit of a shame, but not surprising given the fact that everything else about the AddOn already tells us that it's not designed for people who want a challenging experience but rather for people who enjoy a more casual and "laid back"-experience. Balance-mods will fix that for us.

Just because the city will be surrounded by mostly plain-equivalent yields in the shallow water terrain, I don't think that'll hurt its growth, it's all about the resources (especially earlier when you're more restricted by health and can only work so many tiles anyway).

Most Water-Resources are somewhat culture-centered, there is no (or only 1?) really high food-tile. As far as I can tell it will be equivalent to something like a Plains-Only city with some fiber here and there - which is already the most suboptimal start that you can get in non-desert (without Tubers and/or Floodplains) or Tundra-areas. Resources are only useful early on when they're better than farms, later on most resource tiles become useless - with the exception of high-food and high-production tiles - because it's just better to work an academy instead.

 

[GenEngineer]

@ Ryika - that's before you consider the water refinery turning those tiles into 2 food by default, with their other yields, and still able to be improved. As far as academies go, that's a given in all terrain, and a flaw in design tbh.

 

[Barathor]

Oh, wow, I didn't know that the water resources were mostly culture oriented, yeah that really changes things. I just assumed there were lots of food bonuses without taking a hard look at them. Though, off the top of my head right now, I can only think of the big fish one as "maybe" a food resource. I'll have to check out the videos or some other sources.

Yeah, later on, bonus yields from resources and their improvements (minus a few, like the ridiculous titanium yields) are not as important as other things that can be built onto bare terrain.

 

[Ryika]

@ Ryika - that's before you consider the water refinery turning those tiles into 2 food by default, with their other yields, and still able to be improved.

...which comes way too late for the initial growth phase and is another technology that you'd have to research. ^^ If the game was 50+ turns longer then yeah, that would probably work out, but the way it is now - don't think it works with the flow of the game. I usually want my first 2-3 cities to be done growing to size 10 on turn ~100 - and that's only possible on starts that have some good food-tiles available from the very beginning. And of course then you also have to build that damn thing which is another 150 Production per City at a time where especially the newer cities are still trying to finally complete all the science/health buildings.

Overall the early game is already packed with stuff to get, if you need more just to make them somewhat comparable to normal cities that slows down stuff quite a bit.

Oh, wow, I didn't know that the water resources were mostly culture oriented, yeah that really changes things. I just assumed there were lots of food bonuses without taking a hard look at them. Though, off the top of my head right now, I can only think of the big fish one as "maybe" a food resource. I'll have to check out the videos or some other sources.

Well, at least that's what they said a few streams ago. I haven't had an in-depth look into the actual yields yet either other than the base-yields which indeed often include Culture and looked pretty "meh" to me - but maybe there is a tuber-equivalent that adds +2 Food from the Improvement - in that case there may very well be some good spots.

All that is of course assuming that Academies can be built on sea tiles - still haven't any confirmation on that as far as I'm aware, although we've seen the Submerged Domes which makes me hopeful that it's possible (although Domes fit thematically, while Academies don't really fit too good, so who knows).

 

[Barathor]

I'm not sure of the improvement bonus, but the base bonuses I've seen so far are:

Shells: +1 C

Eggs: +1 F

Vents: +2 E

Chelonia: +1 P +1 E

Minerals: ?? I assume + P... I can even see + C when improved

Plankton: ?? I assume + E


Also, regarding Vents, how are they different from Geothermal in the sea? Wouldn't it have been more accurate to just have vents be the sea graphics for geothermal energy instead of its own bonus type? (Which I guess becomes hydrothermal once water is involved in the transfer of that heat -- could just rename the strategic resource to Thermal Energy.)

 

[Natura]

I was wondering last night exactly why it is that aquatic cities don't have culture border expansion. It feels like the ability to move cities to claim tiles was a response to NOT being able to have border spread naturally at sea, but I can't see any reason why it couldn't. And ever since they've confirmed that you can't move your city within 3 tiles of another city anyway, I really don't see the point of aquatic cities being able to move. Why can't they just remain stationary and have borders expansion normally?

Also Duncan Hughes looks like being the least powerful sponsor out there.

 

[Ryika]

I was wondering last night exactly why it is that aquatic cities don't have culture border expansion. It feels like the ability to move cities to claim tiles was a response to NOT being able to have border spread naturally at sea, but I can't see any reason why it couldn't. And ever since they've confirmed that you can't move your city within 3 tiles of another city anyway, I really don't see the point of aquatic cities being able to move. Why can't they just remain stationary and have borders expansion normally?

Also Duncan Hughes looks like being the least powerful sponsor out there.

It was probably the other way around. They decided that they wanted to have water cities, brainstormed how they could make them special, liked the idea that they should be able to move and then went from there. If that assumption is right, then border expansion "had to" be removed for the movement-part to be a tool that "has to" be used instead of being some cute mechanic that nobody ever uses.

 

[Galgus]

It seems like most of the organic resources should give food - why would Chelonia give other yields?

Also, now I want Franco-Iberia to get +1 Food on Shells.

 

[Halbbruder]

I'd follow my similar approach to sea cities in SMAC: cover the land first and then use sea cities as frontier sea defences.

I now see NSA as a "don't have to worry about massive enemy early domination rush (either SP or MP) but growth will be slow" sponsor.

 

[Zenstrive]

It's perfect for the peaceful, alien loving type.

 

[Natura]

It was probably the other way around. They decided that they wanted to have water cities, brainstormed how they could make them special, liked the idea that they should be able to move and then went from there. If that assumption is right, then border expansion "had to" be removed for the movement-part to be a tool that "has to" be used instead of being some cute mechanic that nobody ever uses.

It's a bit odd really; water cities don't need something to make them special because they're already special: they're on water! No Civ game has ever done that before (SMAC not being part of the Civ series). You can access unique resources, force your opponents to build a navy if they want to come after you, build unique buildings...

I guess moving to claim territory just feels gimmicky in the form we know of. If victory conditions required things like having Hydracoral brains inside your territory then I could see it being useful.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The big question is: Will I be able to build Academies on water tiles?
If not, there is no reason to bother with water cities.

 

[Halbbruder]

The big question is: Will I be able to build Academies on water tiles?
If not, there is no reason to bother with water cities.

Good point. Then again, you'd focus on settling near islands and such, preferably decent sized islands.