Roads

You may be pedantically correct Boris however there was always land traffic between cities that created tracks which became roads which troops could use to speed up journeys.
The reason we want a land route is there is no sane way we can get a road otherwise.

So no, it does not make perfect sense in a game where no roads are naturally created.

It makes perfect sense given the current trade system in the game - which I think is a set of artificialities that should be completely revised, but that's another Thread's worth of discussion - BUT I agree that not allowing any mechanism for roads to be created any other way is limiting the options 'way too much. That's why I think a version of Road-Builders would be a useful addition, especially in the critical early Eras of the game.

Oh, and there certainly was land traffic, and there's even a trace of a stone-surfaced road in Crete that pre-dates Start of Game, but such tracks were either very short-ranged, so are better represented by better movement among a city's Center and Districts, or they were the result of land-based trade = Trade Routes in game.
 
Surely the simplest (best?) solution is to allow builders to, you know, build roads.
An even simpler solution would be: when sending a trade route, have a check box that says something like "Stay on land." That way we can opt to make our roads first, then concentrate on the more profitable sea routes later on if we so choose.
 
Sea routes were cheaper because draft animals ate nearly the value of the cargo on the way there.
I don't mind if routes go automatically by sea, clearly if the trader has shorter distance than any unit would too.
If builders made roads we'd have to move twice as many builders around.
 
There should be a natural road that appears over time. Sure its a muddy track but it is still a track.

I think this, a naturally occurring road that appears over time makes sense for the majority of land routes where trade routes are not generating a road. Adding to this the ability of a builder [or engineer] to build roads for those places where you specifically want them would seem to be an effective solution and at the same time make sense historically. Routes between cities eventually were generated even if no major trade routes [and the trade route system is too small, too few units, to completely represent early travel and trade]; and in situations where a king/emperor/whatever wanted to build a specific route between two cities, having the builders being able to do so, maybe with no charges on plains and one charge on hills, forests, etc. to represent the relative cost of building a road over the different types of terrain.
 
Since military engineers can build endless railroads, just make them able to build endless roads too. that way there's still a cost to getting it done but not the giant expense it has now. I'm okay with not letting builders doing it and making the player do something special.
 
The question is what is a natural road? If no traders or military units go between the cities how does it appear?
It's the trader's prerogative to find the shortest distance from point A to point B, it can't calculate barbarian risk or aesthetically pleasing coastal drives for you.
 
The question is what is a natural road?
So, if we look at England as the perfect example.
The Romans’ came and invaded and built straight roads everywhere replacing the squiggly tracks that were in place.
The squiggly tracks were made by locals living in farmsteads (yep, dotted all across the countryside with fences to defend against ‘barbs’ which were just thieves). People went to town for market travelling sometimes days of travel. Lots of people traversed between towns as well, entertainers, job seekers, dignitaries, the rich.
When Rome left England their nice straight military roads were ignored and squiggly tracks came back because they were faster for local travel.
This is why we have a few very straight roads in England but most are squiggly roads hugging the terrain while the Romans’ used slaves to destroy terrain.
 
So, if we look at England as the perfect example.
The Romans’ came and invaded and built straight roads everywhere replacing the squiggly tracks that were in place.
The squiggly tracks were made by locals living in farmsteads (yep, dotted all across the countryside with fences to defend against ‘barbs’ which were just thieves). People went to town for market travelling sometimes days of travel. Lots of people traversed between towns as well, entertainers, job seekers, dignitaries, the rich.
When Rome left England their nice straight military roads were ignored and squiggly tracks came back because they were faster for local travel.
This is why we have a few very straight roads in England but most are squiggly roads hugging the terrain while the Romans’ used slaves to destroy terrain.
I think what you're describing is English traders versus Roman military engineers, or legions as the game uses them. Travel by sea was surely more important to the English than land and if they could go by sea faster they would. A trader is not good at calculating barbarian risk unless they are a trained soldier or the local government (ie player) has advised them not to go.
 
I think what you're describing is English traders
No, I am not, I am talking about real life, not some fantasy rationalisation. A HUGE number of locals traverse paths compared to ‘traders’. This has all been studied in university papers. Quite a few based on why roman roads were not used.
People IRL did not think about barbarian risk, roads formed over the shortest traversable path which typically was not straight unless you had thousands of slaves.
 
No, I am not, I am talking about real life, not some fantasy rationalisation. A HUGE number of locals traverse paths compared to ‘traders’. This has all been studied in university papers. Quite a few based on why roman roads were not used.
People IRL did not think about barbarian risk, roads formed over the shortest traversable path which typically was not straight unless you had thousands of slaves.
Yes and all those people comprise a trade caravan for the purposes of this game, so natural roads don't need to form in the game. The huge numbers of people weren't travelling for no reason and their natural motives are what is the destination and that's that's covered in the district yields at the destination.
Yes people may not think about barbarian risk and they take the shortest traversable path, which is about as smart as the traders in the game are as far as I can tell.
 
Since military engineers can build endless railroads, just make them able to build endless roads too. that way there's still a cost to getting it done but not the giant expense it has now. I'm okay with not letting builders doing it and making the player do something special.
The reason we don't particularly want that - I think I called it out in an earlier post - is that then, a single ME could do all your roads forever and the entire concept of traders making roads would become worthless the moment a civ got an armory up. Rails do cost coal+iron, although its negligible, and they do have this issue - you get an ME or maybe two and you just connect up your main cities with rails once you unlock. It's there but it's not that exciting to do. I wish these things could cost gold to place, like pay 100 gold to plop a rail tile. Then it would justify introducing some very fun effects of having cities connected. They don't even cost maintenance any more so only the difficulty of actively building roads is keeping us from paving every last tile.

This is why we have a few very straight roads in England but most are squiggly roads hugging the terrain while the Romans’ used slaves to destroy terrain.
For the purposes of realism, english roads should confer a movement penalty to foreign units in their territory. How do you even navigate that country without getting lost?! Grrr! :crazyeye:

I like that roads can naturally appear from traders now, versus the "legion of serfs shoveling in the jungle for 20 turns" that past civs had. But it does sort of make me yearn for the dual system in civ5 of active trade routes and passive "trade" from road connections. Cities wither and die without road/sea connections for trade. Having more of the economy based around that (which can be taken away in the event of siege/invasion/pesky vikings) might be a good idea for civ7.
 
so natural roads don't need to form in the game
Of course they do, thats is what the large majority of people are wanting when they want to choose a land route ratgher than a sea route.
they need to form in the game because many many people want them to form and they do IRL... by local people not friggin traders.

How do you even navigate that country without getting lost?
Lol, you stop, ask someone where you are and you cannot understand them but recognise the dialect as being from Newcastle and decide to head south.
 
Of course they do, thats is what the large majority of people are wanting when they want to choose a land route ratgher than a sea route.
they need to form in the game because many many people want them to form and they do IRL... by local people not friggin traders.
Traders are local people for the purposes of the game and I'm cool with that. They take the easiest route, they can't calculate barbarian risk and they do stuff at the destination depending what districts are available. It would unnatural if people were travelling city to city for no reason and building roads along the way; it's the foreign traders that build more advanced roads in your territory depending on their tech level.
 
Traders are local people for the purposes of the game
..we are talking about Civ VI right? where the distance between your own cities is hundreds of miles and your "local people" are travelling to foreign cities?
I think there is some disconnect here or you are trying to rationalise out a valid ask by many people.
 
..we are talking about Civ VI right? where the distance between your own cities is hundreds of miles and your "local people" are travelling to foreign cities?
I think there is some disconnect here or you are trying to rationalise out a valid ask by many people.
If it's produced in your city then it's local, if you keep it local it's up to you. All foreign traders were local people at some point I guess and I'm sure "local people" went great distances if politics and war allowed them to. It's an unwarranted bonus meted out to the player for no reason. If barbarians are amok and commercial districts are pillaged or non-existent then roads should rightly be poor. Why not have natural walls or natural farms? If it's natural for someone to farm somewhere then a farm should appear. Yes I can go against the will of the people on this although I don't see a poll anywhere.
 
Now, this made me laugh hard.

Geordies :)
When I first came to this wonderful country I could not even understand Brummie, live next door to a Scouser which helps with that but still lost with some Geordies. Somerset and some rural welsh are also tricky at times.
 
My professor of ancient history when I was in college had a project going with all his Graduate Students to compile all information on travel times in the ancient Mediterranean/Asia Minor (his specialty was Classical and Hellenistic, that is Post-Alexander Greece and Asia Minor). I don't know what the final outcome was, because they were still collecting data when I left campus, but I remember a couple of things they had already found out:
1. ALL the 'routes' of travel between cities were Trade Routes, in that they were used by caravans of pack animals or (more rarely) by wheeled carts. Local travel was strictly within 1 - 2 days' walk of a city, and simply wasn't important for travel between cities.
2. The exception to this general Rule 1, was the Persian Royal Road, which had been built strictly for express riders carrying 'mail' and government communications over 1000s of kilometers.
3. The other exception to Rule 1 was Greece, in which 1 - 2 days' walk would almost always bring you to another city, so there was little or no difference between 'local' and 'inter-city' traffic.

That means (as he finally winds up) that the pattern should be Trade Routes between cities for roads until relatively recently, but 'local' roads everywhere automatically - but probably, in game terms, only between the City Center and all its Districts. Traders and their Routes, though, were historically a lot more common than they are in the game: the relatively dense collection of cities/city states in Greece and even the larger area of Italy were covered by a network of roads, trails, tracks, and paths between every city, because 'long distance' Traders were Everywhere.

The problem, as has been noted already, is how to keep roads from being the default Landscape everywhere there is a Civilization.
Here's a suggestion that tries to 'thread the needle' between All or Nothing. Whenever a Settler founds a new city, it generates a road between the new city and the nearest city of the same Civ that is no further than X tiles away. X could vary by Era or type of Road, so it might be no more than 8 - 10 tiles for an Ancient Road (city founded in the Ancient Era), 2 tiles more for a Classical Road, and them jump to , say, 20 tiles for an Industrial Road and 25 tiles for a Modern Road you can go a long, long way on a multi-lane concrete highway compared to a pair of ruts across the turf!. Your specific Traders and Military Engineers, then, you could 'reserve' for filling in roads where you need them and connecting with foreign cities.

. . . you get an ME or maybe two and you just connect up your main cities with rails once you unlock. It's there but it's not that exciting to do. I wish these things could cost gold to place, like pay 100 gold to plop a rail tile. Then it would justify introducing some very fun effects of having cities connected. They don't even cost maintenance any more so only the difficulty of actively building roads is keeping us from paving every last tile.

Railroad building was so expensive that it required the development of stock companies and stock markets to raise the capital, and also gave rise to the massive chicanery and manipulation of the stock markets and railroad stocks that characterized the 19th century - see John Gordon's Empire of Wealth for a summary of the process. That makes the building of railroads without Gold a complete distortion of the 'real costs' of the railroads.
This is another part of the Industrial Revolution problem in the game: neither the rising costs of the paraphenalia of the Industrial Revolution: factories and movement of population to work them, railroads, steam ships, massive enlargement of cities, etc. and the rising effects of Industrial Production: rising wealth of the middle class and upper class, rapid transport of Everything, mass production of goods relevant to the game like military, infrastructure, and Improvements, are not well modeled yet.
 
Trade Routes between cities for roads
I'll try and dig out the papers from Oxford I read. Basically a trader travelling 10 days did not go in a straight line like the romans, they made nightly stops at local villgaes where their carts animals could be housed and fed and they could sleep safely. Yes some towns did spring up along the route to cater for this (like on the silk route) and so the reality is a mix. The game is polarised and the problem is I have no routes between my cities (yes my choice because I want gold like traders did, rather than production) Perhaps if such roads that are not travelled by merchants are pure 1MP with no improvement until improved or perhaps romans roads should be faster from the start either way I suspect the differentiation in game is to cater for the Roman ability. I just do not want my horses moving from one of my cities to another spending 3MP in a wooded hill when there would have been at least a track for them to traverse. But its a game, I guess we do not get what we want very often, it is nice to dream
 
This is a pet peeve of mine. I hate with a vengeance that you can't pick the pathing of your trade routes. I constantly see all kinds of weird nonsense roads going around cities instead of through them, or going over ocean and refusing to connect cities by land.

I especially hate that you can know several turns in advance when, say, a barbarian camp spawns near or along a trade route and you won't be able to get a unit to protect your trader from going along that road, one turn/tile at a time, until inevitably they travel directly onto a tile already occupied by an enemy unit.

It's like watching lemmings walk off a cliff.
 
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