Roads

[Scaramanga]

I especially hate that you can know several turns in advance when, say, a barbarian camp spawns near or along a trade route and you won't be able to get a unit to protect your trader from going along that road, one turn/tile at a time, until inevitably they travel directly onto a tile already occupied by an enemy unit.

It's like watching lemmings walk off a cliff.

I think it's a relatively good play feature to have traders be autonomous and follow the most direct route, even if it's going around a city. There's no reason to stop in a city if its only going to slow the trader down. It's the city that's misplaced not the trader's sense of direction, or a trade route has to be made to the intermediate city first.
Running into unclear territory where barbarians could appear is part of the challenge of having good roads.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

I wanted to have a caravan move from a newly captured city in a hilly/jungle area to my capital, but the trader insisted on going over the ocean. This surprised me, since I wanted that road. Have they changed road building in GS or Rise and Fall (I just bought both expansions a few days ago)?

Or is it because there was a harbour present in the city when I captured it (It was Phoenician)?

Where they're trading they don't need roads.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'll try and dig out the papers from Oxford I read. Basically a trader travelling 10 days did not go in a straight line like the romans, they made nightly stops at local villgaes where their carts animals could be housed and fed and they could sleep safely. Yes some towns did spring up along the route to cater for this (like on the silk route) and so the reality is a mix. The game is polarised and the problem is I have no routes between my cities (yes my choice because I want gold like traders did, rather than production) Perhaps if such roads that are not travelled by merchants are pure 1MP with no improvement until improved or perhaps romans roads should be faster from the start either way I suspect the differentiation in game is to cater for the Roman ability. I just do not want my horses moving from one of my cities to another spending 3MP in a wooded hill when there would have been at least a track for them to traverse. But its a game, I guess we do not get what we want very often, it is nice to dream

I've argued in the past before for a more 'organic' approach in the game, where, in this specific example, sub-City 'settlements' could spring up along a trade route, representing places like river crossings, passes, shores where goods are transferred to boats, etc. and eventually grow into controlled territory: Free Cities, City States or some other 'intermediate' thing on the map between blank terrain and City. This idea got started when I remembered the history of Wiesbaden, Germany, where I was stationed for 5 years: it started because Romans would cross the Rhine to bask in the hot springs (Wiesbaden = "Bath in the Meadow") there, and as it happened, right across the river was the Roman 2-legion camp (Game= Legionary Fort) at Maintiacum, so there were lots of customers. The local German tribe, the Matti, saw a Good Thing, and the place ended up as an Out Of The Empire Roman trading and 'resort' center. By 400 CE, a few centuries later, it was incorporated as a Roman City.

All of which is quite impossible in the game, but, IMHO, should be both possible and not uncommon.

 

[Scaramanga]

I've argued in the past before for a more 'organic' approach in the game, where, in this specific example, sub-City 'settlements' could spring up along a trade route, representing places like river crossings, passes, shores where goods are transferred to boats, etc. and eventually grow into controlled territory: Free Cities, City States or some other 'intermediate' thing on the map between blank terrain and City. This idea got started when I remembered the history of Wiesbaden, Germany, where I was stationed for 5 years: it started because Romans would cross the Rhine to bask in the hot springs (Wiesbaden = "Bath in the Meadow") there, and as it happened, right across the river was the Roman 2-legion camp (Game= Legionary Fort) at Maintiacum, so there were lots of customers. The local German tribe, the Matti, saw a Good Thing, and the place ended up as an Out Of The Empire Roman trading and 'resort' center. By 400 CE, a few centuries later, it was incorporated as a Roman City.

All of which is quite impossible in the game, but, IMHO, should be both possible and not uncommon.

I think what you're describing is settling near a natural wonder, I guess by Germany, and then it gets absorbed into Rome through loyalty pressure. Before hand Germany builds a holy site or commercial hub to entice trade routes to it.

 

[legalizefreedom]

Maybe off topic (I haven't read all of it), but I've notice some small pieces of road aren't getting upgraded. I have modern roads everywhere, but there are a couple of hexes with ancient roads still. Anyone know what causes this or if it is intended?

 

[shaglio]

An even simpler solution would be: when sending a trade route, have a check box that says something like "Stay on land." That way we can opt to make our roads first, then concentrate on the more profitable sea routes later on if we so choose.

I hate to toot my own horn, but I really thought my suggestion was a pretty decent solution to the problem. It would still keep the current system of traders creating roads, but would also allow us the freedom and flexibility to choose to connect our cities with roads until we wanted to switch to the more lucrative options.

ETA: I keep forgetting to browse the Steam Workshop to see if some enterprising modder has already created a mod for this.

 

[Scaramanga]

Maybe off topic (I haven't read all of it), but I've notice some small pieces of road aren't getting upgraded. I have modern roads everywhere, but there are a couple of hexes with ancient roads still. Anyone know what causes this or if it is intended?

It sounds like a foreign trader created a road through your territory in the ancient era and didn't renew the route.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think what you're describing is settling near a natural wonder, I guess by Germany, and then it gets absorbed into Rome through loyalty pressure. Before hand Germany builds a holy site or commercial hub to entice trade routes to it.

More like a Geothermal Fissure than a Wonder. Wherever there is a 'bad' or 'baden' in the name, that German/Austrian town had a hot springs: Wiesbaden, Bad Nauheim, Bad Kissingen, Baden-Baden - 'way too many to be any kind of Wonder, but I was really disappointed when the Geothermal Fissure terrain feature added in GS didn't give you the option of increased Tourism by building a 'Kurhaus' Improvement!
Also, at the time Germany didn't have any of the features of a Civ Civilization: no cities. They were the quintessential Barbarian Camps, occasionally sending Units or groups of Units to attack the Roman Civilization. And also trading with the Romans, providing them with Amenity Goods (Amber, among others) and being hired by the Roman Army as Auxiliaries in large numbers.
But that's another point I've belabored before: the One-Dimensional Nature of the in-game Barbarians . . .

 

[CoconutTank]

I'm not really sure why folks would be opposed to military engineers being able to infinitely build roads. It's not as though that's the primary function for Traders throughout the game, they're still plenty useful otherwise. It makes sense early game, because of the history of traveling traders, the fact that AI will try to move the fastest route (over land), and it would be kind of a bother to build out that much road early on, so having the AI mostly automate that is very convenient. Traders aren't always great at building out roads though, so having a meaningful manual option would be nice.

Otherwise, here's one idea I would like to propose: Whenever an ME constructs a road, for each unjoined road or city 2 hexes away from the ME, put a road for free inbetween.

 

[Victoria]

I'm not really sure why folks would be opposed to military engineers being able to infinitely build roads

Not opposed, just silent you mean?
It has already been tabled before, it’s an OK option in some ways but a pain in others. The thing is with alternatives is everyone has their own idea. Just look at the ideas and suggestions forum

 

[legalizefreedom]

It sounds like a foreign trader created a road through your territory in the ancient era and didn't renew the route.

I suppose that would explain it, but I would expect any road in my territory to get upgraded.

And yes please. ME that can build roads without charges as soon as they're available. It makes that milestone kind of a big deal as it should be.

 

[Tech Osen]

And yes please. ME that can build roads without charges as soon as they're available. It makes that milestone kind of a big deal as it should be.

If only stone was a strategic resource, then you could use the same system as with railroads: one stone load per tile.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

If only stone was a strategic resource, then you could use the same system as with railroads: one stone load per tile.

Or you could ask the question why are Resources treated entirely differently for Trade, use, and harvesting based on a static definition of their value?

As in, if Stone has a potential Strategic Use in building, say, Forts, Roads, City Fortifications, Harbors, Neighborhoods, Dams, etc. why is it forever and always a 'Bonus' Resource good only for standing up to make Stonehenge?
And if Copper can be used to make pre-Bronze tools for extra Production (first metal tool found was an awl for leather working, dated to Before Start of Game around 6000 BCE) Bronze for equipping Spearmen, or wiring for everything after the Industrial Era, why is it also just a "Bonus" Resource good only for a little extra Gold?
And on, and on. Resources need to be completely rethought and reworked for Civ VII, if not sooner. . .

 

[Lily_Lancer]

I always priorize steam power and build railroads myself.

 

[Futumch]

Mountain tunnels do some funny stuff to pathing. They seem to act like portals if you have a couple in the same mountain chain (for instance, one in the north, one in the south).

 

[Victoria]

Mountain tunnels do some funny stuff to pathing. They seem to act like portals if you have a couple in the same mountain chain (for instance, one in the north, one in the south).

Pathing is broken anyway, very frustrating, seems to have gone backwards.

 

[Tech Osen]

Mountain tunnels do some funny stuff to pathing. They seem to act like portals if you have a couple in the same mountain chain (for instance, one in the north, one in the south).

I only make tunnels if it's a very significant shortcut for this very reason. Preferably never two in one mountain range.

 

[Depravo]

I quite like not absolutely everything being subject to player micro. You tell the trader you want a route from X to Y, he finds what for him is the best way there.

On the other hand it's hard to argue with letting builders blow a charge per hex to build a road if you want one that badly.

Also: tunnels as currently implemented are ridiculous. There should be a two hex limit and a steep move cost.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . Also: tunnels as currently implemented are ridiculous. There should be a two hex limit and a steep move cost.

Actually, the length allowed should vary with Era/Tech. Using black powder or dynamite and Industrial/Modern Era Technologies, individual tunnels were rarely more than 5 -10 kilometers in length and were enormously expensive. By the Information Era, massive boring machinery and precision surveying and measurement make it possible to bore 30 kilometers or more (the Chunnel, for example) and do it much faster.
Also, there is not much of a speed penalty through tunnels, but there are much higher maintenance costs and repair costs when repairs are needed. Having a Gold/turn maintenance cost on each tunnel would be appropriate.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Actually, the length allowed should vary with Era/Tech. Using black powder or dynamite and Industrial/Modern Era Technologies, individual tunnels were rarely more than 5 -10 kilometers in length and were enormously expensive. By the Information Era, massive boring machinery and precision surveying and measurement make it possible to bore 30 kilometers or more (the Chunnel, for example) and do it much faster.
Also, there is not much of a speed penalty through tunnels, but there are much higher maintenance costs and repair costs when repairs are needed. Having a Gold/turn maintenance cost on each tunnel would be appropriate.

I guess there will be many who build a lot of unnecessary tunnels and gift to AI.