Roads

Actually, the length allowed should vary with Era/Tech. Using black powder or dynamite and Industrial/Modern Era Technologies, individual tunnels were rarely more than 5 -10 kilometers in length and were enormously expensive. By the Information Era, massive boring machinery and precision surveying and measurement make it possible to bore 30 kilometers or more (the Chunnel, for example) and do it much faster.

Like many things in the game, I think of tunnels as an abstraction not of a single long tunnel, but a maintained mountain route that includes tunnels. Shifting large military units through even a modern tunnel using modern tech should be a major bottleneck.

I like that mountains are no longer impassable throughout the game, but going from 'IMPENETRABLE BARRIER OF DOOM' to warp zone just because you spent a builder charge at each end of a 20 hex massif isn't the answer.
 
30 kilometers or more
And how many tunnels are as long as a mountain range? is 30 Kilometres not 1-2 tiles?
For the Incans they were paths not tunnels but traversing an entire mountain range in a turn would be as bad as pillaging 500 science from a district rather than the buildings.
 
And how many tunnels are as long as a mountain range? is 30 Kilometres not 1-2 tiles?
For the Incans they were paths not tunnels but traversing an entire mountain range in a turn would be as bad as pillaging 500 science from a district rather than the buildings.

I've given up trying to put a 'ground scale' on Civ VI tiles. Early City Centers were maybe 1 km wide, Classical Athens not much bigger, but modern Los Angeles or New York City cover 100s of square miles and even if you assume most of that is Districts the ground scale has to be a very 'elastic' one.

I think of the Civ VI "tunnel" as simply representing 'roads/railroads through high mountains". For instance, the original Central Pacific Railroad route through the Sierra Nevada east from Sacramento, California has no single long tunnel, but in places 2 - 3 short tunnels per kilometer. Done with black powder and manual labor, it was an enormously expensive and time-consuming engineering task. Today (and the route is still used by AMTRAK passenger trains, which is why I'm pretty familiar with it) the same route would be driven by simply removing a large part of the mountain.

Like many things in the game, I think of tunnels as an abstraction not of a single long tunnel, but a maintained mountain route that includes tunnels. Shifting large military units through even a modern tunnel using modern tech should be a major bottleneck.

Bottlenecks to military (or any) traffic are places where the route or throughput gets narrower: a one-lane tunnel for a two or three-lane road, or a single-track bridge on a double track railroad, for instance. If there is no such construction, there is no bottleneck: I've driven in a few military convoys through mountains, and the real 'bottleneck' to traffic and speed was not tunnels or bridges, but grade - taking fully loaded vehicles up or down a steep slope puts tremendous strain on the engines, transmissions, brakes, and other gear, and the convoy invariably has to reduce speed, and makes it up once it hits the 'flat land' again.
So, it's not the tunnel, but the road leading up and down to it that is the 'bottleneck'. In game terms, any crossing of mountains should reduce speed, but whether or not it reduces it enough to be reflected in a game in which turns are years-long is another question.
One question not brought up is the Major Bottleneck caused by destruction of bridges or tunnels by, say, aerial bombing, cruise missiles, and such. IF the game is going to have bridges and tunnels, then we should be able to attack them, or have to defend them, as potential strangling points on our road/railroad network.
 
I run internal trade routes to get roads then switch to international to get gold. Also if I build a route to one of my cities I can then reassign that to a foreign city or CS beyond my city.
 
And how many tunnels are as long as a mountain range? is 30 Kilometres not 1-2 tiles?
For the Incans they were paths not tunnels but traversing an entire mountain range in a turn would be as bad as pillaging 500 science from a district rather than the buildings.
I don't understand the rationale in the tunnel feature design at all.

Imo. it seems pretty straight forward: A tunnel should be able to go through ONE mountain tile, no more, no less. It should connect to a non-mountain tile on either side. There could be some wonder (the Gotthard Tunnel, for instance), that would allow you to build a longer tunnel á la the Panama Canal. Movement through the tunnel should cost modern road or railroad movement and should bring you from one side to the other. End of story.

The Incas should just be able to move builders onto mountains and make roads there, which would then allow for their normal units to move there.
 
I don't understand the rationale in the tunnel feature design at all.

Imo. it seems pretty straight forward: A tunnel should be able to go through ONE mountain tile, no more, no less. It should connect to a non-mountain tile on either side. There could be some wonder (the Gotthard Tunnel, for instance), that would allow you to build a longer tunnel á la the Panama Canal. Movement through the tunnel should cost modern road or railroad movement and should bring you from one side to the other. End of story.

The Incas should just be able to move builders onto mountains and make roads there, which would then allow for their normal units to move there.
I guess, but then you'd have to make special movement rules for inca that break the base movement rules (not unprecedented but don't know if it would break other things) as well as giving them the ability to make roads in the first place.
 
I guess, but then you'd have to make special movement rules for inca that break the base movement rules (not unprecedented but don't know if it would break other things) as well as giving them the ability to make roads in the first place.
??? Place a path on a mountain tile and then treat that tile as passible with 3MP or 1 MP if Inca would not be a hard change.
this entry and exit nonsense is just that, the ability to teleport large distances just ridiculous a simple change the tile to be hills would even work better.
 
I suppose, the way they did meant they didn't have to write in exceptions to the "no units on mountains" rule though.
 
I've argued in the past before for a more 'organic' approach in the game, where, in this specific example, sub-City 'settlements' could spring up along a trade route, representing places like river crossings, passes, shores where goods are transferred to boats, etc. and eventually grow into controlled territory: Free Cities, City States or some other 'intermediate' thing on the map between blank terrain and City. This idea got started when I remembered the history of Wiesbaden, Germany, where I was stationed for 5 years: it started because Romans would cross the Rhine to bask in the hot springs (Wiesbaden = "Bath in the Meadow") there, and as it happened, right across the river was the Roman 2-legion camp (Game= Legionary Fort) at Maintiacum, so there were lots of customers. The local German tribe, the Matti, saw a Good Thing, and the place ended up as an Out Of The Empire Roman trading and 'resort' center. By 400 CE, a few centuries later, it was incorporated as a Roman City.

All of which is quite impossible in the game, but, IMHO, should be both possible and not uncommon.
I think what you're describing is settling near a natural wonder, I guess by Germany, and then it gets absorbed into Rome through loyalty pressure. Before hand Germany builds a holy site or commercial hub to entice trade routes to it.
More like a Geothermal Fissure than a Wonder. Wherever there is a 'bad' or 'baden' in the name, that German/Austrian town had a hot springs: Wiesbaden, Bad Nauheim, Bad Kissingen, Baden-Baden - 'way too many to be any kind of Wonder, but I was really disappointed when the Geothermal Fissure terrain feature added in GS didn't give you the option of increased Tourism by building a 'Kurhaus' Improvement!
Just a little amendment, evidence of settlement at present-day Wiesbaden dates back to the Neolithic era (from wikipedia).
Probably a kind of early sacred place that became this natural sanctuary place.
Also, at the time Germany didn't have any of the features of a Civ Civilization: no cities. They were the quintessential Barbarian Camps, occasionally sending Units or groups of Units to attack the Roman Civilization. And also trading with the Romans, providing them with Amenity Goods (Amber, among others) and being hired by the Roman Army as Auxiliaries in large numbers.
But that's another point I've belabored before: the One-Dimensional Nature of the in-game Barbarians . . .
Indeed. It's like non-aggressive nomads are missing; but what would it contribute to game, having them wandering on map - I guess they've been rationalized into plain yields.

However, there's "allways" been paths between some locations - could be animals wandering to new grazing/browsing/hunting land (or to and off cliffs if they were lemmings) or human nomads doing pretty much the same and then gathering at junctions to trade - and eventually some of those trails better had to be upgraded to roads to carry the weight of all goods.

I think within your own borders, your units should basically move faster (at least slightly) - we're talking about claimed land and there you (should) know all paths.
I'm also for letting builders spend charges to put down roads on map, within their civ's borders.
 
Just a little amendment, evidence of settlement at present-day Wiesbaden dates back to the Neolithic era (from wikipedia).
Probably a kind of early sacred place that became this natural sanctuary place.

When they were digging the foundations for the museum in Wiesbaden they discovered a Neolithic tomb/burial - which they left in place, and organized the museum so that the basement level is Neolithic, followed by Roman/Germanic, followed by the Medieval German and 17th - 19th century Hessia-Nassau on the top floor.

Indeed. It's like non-aggressive nomads are missing; but what would it contribute to game, having them wandering on map - I guess they've been rationalized into plain yields.

The addition, I think, would be another potential 'source' for Mercenaries to be hired and Trade Partners for Strategic and Luxury/Amenity Resources. This, in turn, would allow the game to rationalize the entire Trade system so that all trade routes are subject to map effects - distances, geography. They aren't now (trade between Civ's in Resources is, essentially, Magical in that it can be over any distance and through any geographic features and borders). If you can potentially get Horses from a Barbarian Camp 15 tiles away, there's no reason to have Fantasy Trade Routes.

And I would maintain the 'Camps' as markers for Where The Barbarians Are instead of having wandering groups and a new 'barbarians mechanic' in the game. The difference is that a Camp could be Hostile (current Barbarian Mode), Friendly (current Goodie Hut Mode, except that it doesn't disappear when contacted, and can become, potentially, a Trade Partner, Mercenary Source, or other Bonus Source) or Neutral - which means it has to be persuaded, fought, or otherwise dealt with.

I think such a system would add to the variety of early interactions, keep 'Barbarians' relevant until much later in the game, and give you more uses for Envoys and Recon Units and even Great People, all of which should be able to promote better relations with the 'Barbarians'.

However, there's "allways" been paths between some locations - could be animals wandering to new grazing/browsing/hunting land (or to and off cliffs if they were lemmings) or human nomads doing pretty much the same and then gathering at junctions to trade - and eventually some of those trails better had to be upgraded to roads to carry the weight of all goods.

I think within your own borders, your units should basically move faster (at least slightly) - we're talking about claimed land and there you (should) know all paths.
I'm also for letting builders spend charges to put down roads on map, within their civ's borders.

Case in Point: the Native Americans had 'roads' everywhere in North America - regular routes taken by people, animals and goods between settled areas - but because they weren't wheeled routes the Europeans didn't recognize them and kept calling North America a "Trackless Wilderness".
A Movement Bonus within a radius or border of yours makes sense as a start to be augmented by 'regular' roads later. It might originally simply be better movement through terrain that normally impedes movement, such as having Civilian and Recon ("Unencumbered") units be able to ignore Hills for movement. Leaving out military units that necessarily include larger numbers, weapons, armor, food and supplies would keep the effect from being OP early in the game.
 
A bit of a tangent but Logistics is an awesome policy. +1 movement for all units that start in friendly territory is great for ranged military and siege military, and is also remarkably great for workers. I pretty much leave Logistics and Levee En Masse in red slots forever whenever I get them. Making Logistics' effect be a base mechanic that's on all the time would be cool, though the fact that it's locked to a Renaissance civic speaks to how powerful it is.
 
A bit of a tangent but Logistics is an awesome policy. +1 movement for all units that start in friendly territory is great for ranged military and siege military, and is also remarkably great for workers. I pretty much leave Logistics and Levee En Masse in red slots forever whenever I get them. Making Logistics' effect be a base mechanic that's on all the time would be cool, though the fact that it's locked to a Renaissance civic speaks to how powerful it is.

Very Good Point about the Logistics Civic being essentially what we were talking about here - and also how it would have to be 'toned down' to be a starting attribute of a Civ or area. Perhaps it should not apply until X turns after an area has been inside your 'borders', but then the problem arises of how to differentiate between Improved (tracks, paths) and Unimproved tiles. I don't think we want a graphic of tracks all over the map: that would be messy and potentially very annoying.
 
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