Role PLay Challenge: Chairman Mao's Revised Plan

[madscientist]

Espionage is ridiculous. Is it still overpowered when playing Marathon speed or did they fix that?

Not sure whether it's overpowered in marathon speed or not. TEch cost is still 3 X the speed of normal. The marathon advantage, so I have heard, is generally the cheaper unit cost (2X), the length of the units before becoming obsoltet, and teh speed. Whether these unit/movement itmes are a benefit or curse in marathon I am still debating. It is harder I admit, but not as mush fun to myself.

Espionage I do not see as overpowered here.

Consider, I have been patient in setting this up. The Great Wall and 1 spy specialist certainly is not a fast way to get GPs. I got 5 Great Spies, settled 4 in the capital and one for scotland Yard. I got one Great Scientist which I used to bulb education which won the liberalism race.

Remember, I have not run any other specialists in teh NE city except spies and early scientists. I do not have an academy. I have no settled GP except teh Gspies. Sure it looks overpowered now, but early on it was a big struggle and required alot of diplomacy.

Also, note that I essentially leveraged the ep's to three other AIs, and the bulk of the stolen techs were from the same AI.

SO I really think this technique could work equally as well in standard mode as well as marathon.

 

[CivCorpse]

Persoanally, I think the espionage success here can be attributed to nothing other than superior game play on the part of MadS.
Items to consider.
1. You don't seem to have happiness issues, and with radio opened up you could get more happiness luxuries. Have you considered Representation. Not exactly the most Mao-ish civic, but hereditary rule is even more anti-socialist. If you want Historical accuracy, the Police State is the way to go. Because to be honest with you...willy needs a knock in the head. And he has the Statue f Zues, so I would definately consider Mt Rushmore. Mt rushmore, Police state and jails (with the ep bonus as well) means zero WW. Regardless of how many battels you fight. he could have 50 statues of Zeus and you would have no WW.
Also why haven't you put the final smackdown on Justanian and catboy the alien? Catboy's capital is causeing you to lose land due to culture. And the Byzantine city of Angora is choking out Thesalonia. Are you scared of them? You have infantry to their grenadiers. In 15 turns you have TANKs. Don'y let Willy take the two capitals. And you get silver if you take Angora. Plus Thesakonia jumps in population. Which might be a good site for the Iron Works. LOl, forgot that wonder? i usually do. If you want a space win it will help. Especially if you want the space ladder. So fire up the numberless hordes of china.
2. Build a few settlers. @ to be exact and go settle the ruins of those 2 holy cities you razed. The one on the desert hill provides access to a mob of commerce. And the other gives you a nice doubleseafood coastal city for spy specialists. It also brings some riverside graslllands into your culture for a farm chain towards nicea. But you need to start thinking about your tech future.
3.Take a good long look at Saladin and charlies lands. You will see a pile of towns. They are probably teching quite nice ly over there. Both are pleased with willy if not each other and probably trading with him like crazy. And will is set up with a LOT of production. The space race could be closer than you think. Actually Ghanzou is a better canidate for the ironworks since I think thesalonia may be to far north for the space elevator. You have a probable great spy coming from both beijing and another city within 10 turns. Take one each to Saladin and Charly. 9000 EP's will get you instant intel as well as two techs that willy does not have. Biology from saladin and rocketry from charlemagne. With biology you can farm over the town near ghanzou to help with the green faces from the iron works. And you need the food all your workshop cities. That means 1/2 as many farms needed for each workshop.
4. take out surries capital and Justanian's as well as angora....raze that island city of justanians to your east. The forget both exist.
5. Build a guild in shanghai to counter the new green faces you get as the population grows from biology.
Why are you building a library in Pre rup? it is going to be a workshop city, and it is not on a border.
Wliiem just sent me a text message. He wants me to remind you that amsterdam is loaded with wonders....including Statue of Liberty, Statue of Zues, and broadway....with rock n roll under construction. Hint Hint Hint. And he has crabs....Either that is good for a health bonus or his hygiene is not so great.

Just amy thoughts on all this. You're doing a great job.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

It's very strong. Of course, with the catch that it can't get you a tech lead by itself, not that such is very important necessarily .

Actually it can. Mad never used the slider, i think. Most of his espionage came from buildings and specialists. So you can get a tech lead while researching normally, but down a different path than the AI. So he goes down path A, you go down path B. You steal A from him and have both A and B, but he only has A.

I think a common problem when people try to do an espionage economy is they go full blast on it, when it seems that it's much better used as complement to an ordinary CE or SE economy.

 

[CivCorpse]

Oooops one final note....with those wonders will is going to head for mass media for holywood then he will fire up then culture slider. Yes you can go stomp him....but who will you steal your techs from once he goes culture crazy. If you take amsterdam, it will probably send him towards a space path and you can keep stealing.

 

[hal08]

Hey Madscientist, just wanted to thank you for these threads as I really enjoy reading your detailed reports.

 

[madscientist]

@ BB. You are correct, I never used the ep slider. This was all done with settled spies, spy specialists, nationalism, extended life castles, and teh three spy buildings.

@ Hal. Thanks!!!

@ CivCorpse: That's a very good idea infiltrating Charlemange and Saladin. I have access to submaries also, so it should be fairly easy. Will is best friends with Justinian, so he's alive puely for diplomatic reasons. Regarding Sury, I am assuming Will still wants someone to beat up on, so I am offering Sury's head as a gist is Will is willing to take it. Regarding Will, he's teching industrialism not after apparently slipping to the slider for a bit, I think he is quote concerned about us and will likely NOT up the slider. Still, a generous supply of Tanks and airforce should make him think twice about a culture win. I do not want to risk a military campign that get's us domination without everyone at state property, space is much more predictable. Also, It's time for another space win in the RPCs, just so you all know I can be arepsectable builder!!

 

[Groogaroo]

Well it looks like you've finally got to grips with running an espionage heavy game, well played. I wonder if your success in this game sofar may warrent bringing peter back to life at some point!

I don't see anything wrong with a good old space race win now and again, Hopefully it won't be too hard keeping people in state property.

 

[madscientist]

Well it looks like you've finally got to grips with running an espionage heavy game, well played. I wonder if your success in this game sofar may warrent bringing peter back to life at some point!

I don't see anything wrong with a good old space race win now and again, Hopefully it won't be too hard keeping people in state property.

I think Peter is forever buried. Mao shows a good espionage game, and sort of fitting to have a nice CHinese game totally disrespect the poo Russian attempts, although I do like Peter.

No fear though, I have Catherine pegged for a REX game, and perhaps Stalin as an agressive OCC. But they ar epretty far back in the que.

Regarding State property, I think espionage is the answer there. I just need to stack 10 spies in Charlemanges and Saladin cities within the last 10 turns of the space flight, and force them to adopt it via espionage.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Regarding State property, I think espionage is the answer there. I just need to stack 10 spies in Charlemanges and Saladin cities within the last 10 turns of the space flight, and force them to adopt it via espionage.

Manchurian candidate
Communist infiltrators

[hopefully they don't get a McCarthy special event]

 

[Johnpecan]

In response to what to do with your great people in a space race, I would use your first golden age to setup factories in all ( or at least the top 10 production cities ). Then save the 2nd GA for when a lot of your cities are pumping out thrusters/casing for the spaceship.

Sidenote: Espionage is extremely powerful in a tight space race. Something I just recently figured out ( that's probably common knowledge to most people ) is that you can destroy already made spaceship parts from access to ANY city. With your EP lead, it will be more expensive for enemies to destroy your parts and thus yes likely! Espionage is a great partner with space racing for those tight race.

 

[madscientist]

Well, things are turning very interesting on numerous fronts in this game. It is no way a clear victory and we need to make some decisions. I'll post the segment in a bit.

 

[madscientist]

Chairman Mao's Revised Plan: Part IX

Well, what an fun and interesting game. AS I hinted above, there ar eissues we have to address and teh game is definitely NOT over!!!

First thing, we teched off Industrialism. Willem got this too and we both had adequate aluminum resources.



We followed civ corpses advice and sent the great spy to Saladain and another we got soon after the Charlemange.

We sent teh Gspys off to cities as far away from the AIs capitals



Also Willem finally decided to take out Sury, which we agree



We then stole this tech from Saladin



And this one from Surymanan



We also watermilled all the cottages in several cities. We now have 5 VERY stronge production cities, but that is for another time. We have more important things here.

We redistribute eps, emphasizing Willem again.



And you can see here, we got to Apollo pretty fast.



And we stole what is our last tech, although we can redistribute again to steal Fission from saladin



Because Willem has finally turned up the culture slider.

We also got another GSpy which we sued for a GA this time.

The ep screen again



Greater than 30, 000 eps, and we are about to max that out on Willem. Willem is about 80,000 culture and moving very fast. There is absolutely NO way we can get to space before Will out cultures us.

So we initiate an extreme espionage attack on Wills third espionage city.



We destroyed three catherdrals, teh dike twice, theaters twice, libraries. We destroyed all the improvements including leveling 2 towns. We wasted about 10 spied before we finally got him out of free speech into nationalism. NOTHING seamed to stop the culture of that city. Right now all three are almost at 100,000!!!

And there is more, because Willem built the UN



And the vote



Right now Will has enough votes to get elected a Diplomatic victory. Barely, but if CHarlemange and Saladin hold true to this vote, we are sunk.

Here are the resolutions



And the victory conditions



And the power numbers indicate what we must do.



A view of this critical front



Now my thinking is that Willem has a massive navy, and a smaller army compared with our massive army and insignifant navy.

So I think we have to go DoW on Will, take a few border cities, raze The Hague. Maybe know Justinian arround a bit, and get a fast peace before the UN reals it's ugly head. Plus we do want to get a domination win until Charlemange is in State Property.

Anyone have any other suggestions???

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

What city is the UN in? You definitely need to raze that. Don't want a vote coming up to make you switch to environmentalism.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I wouldn't raze any of Willem's cities if you're slaughtering him on the land once the dust settles after the first big battle. With all those hammer cities you should have no problem pumping units to the frontline to keep a solid march going. Might as well wipe him off that continent so he's not a threat to achieve any kind of victory.

 

[CivCorpse]

Ummmmm, you are barely 1/2way to the landmass required for a Dom win. So attacking will won't get you too close.
Amsterdam is the key, It houses lots of useful wonders and is the easiest of the three culture cities to attack. Naval bombardment, lots of marines and arty for the quick kill. Stock some Anti-tank and sam infantry as well for the city defenders. The Hague is deep in Dutch territory. It will take a heap o troops to get there.
Don't forget, he has the statue of zues, so police state, jails and mt rushmore should be priorities.
Actually willy has a modest land army. Mostly infantry and a couple tanks. His navy is in harleem and doesn't look too massive. I really think a surgical strike in amsterdam is the key.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I opened up the save for the first time and...

1. Well, you've got to raze The Hague and Amsterdam. They're monsters, far too many wonders and culture, you can't risk Willem taking them back...

2. Also, head straight for Rotterdam and raze it (perhaps even before The Hague or Amsterdam), it has the evil U.N....(This isn't a spoiler, since you can just zoom in on the cities and look for the U.N. building)

3. You should probably go for peace after that, but are you going for a space or domination victory? I notice you've got quite a few parts being built....if you're going for space race, try and get peace as soon as you raze the The Hague, Amsterdam and Rotterdam...

4. If you're going for a domination victory, keep warring, you should try to take out as much of Willem's land as possible

5. Good news, Charlemagne has adopted State Property. Bad news, Justinian has adopted Free Market....so, you've got to destroy Justinian...

Well, good luck!

Btw, good to see the Khmer and their freaky burnt alien leader are dead I'm playing a OCC game and the Khmer is one of the other civilizations....they're the most powerful, thankfully I'm on pretty good terms with them....but I was hoping to wipe em out..

 

[Killroyan]

Exciting game. If Willem gets so close to cultural victory then take the 3 right cities Dordrecht, 's Hertogenbosch and the Hague (so strange why all other names are the normal ones but Den Haag is called the Hague ). With this action you will cripple him good, take away one of his key cities and also deprive him of aluminium if that is his only resource as well as one oil reserve.

Loved the spy thing with destroying 3 cathedrals and everything else in it hahaha.

 

[grandad1982]

Woould piosoning the old water supply slowq down Willems sittys while you get ready for war? I can't remember if multipule missions stack. Probably not would be my guess. If you destroy granarys this would be more effective - along with other health buildings I guess (would reduce the number of Artists Willem could run.

Oh and by the way, this is an amazing espionage game so far, congratulations on laying Peter, Spy Loser to rest!!

 

[r_rolo1]

Razing the UN city does not destroy the UN.... it is better to keep it. That and some Dutch cities should be enough to hold out a UN win vote ( you only need a minority block to avoid losing for UN... of course that you should want to control it to avoid a Enviromentalism vote.... )

I do think that you need a flull blown war vs the Dutch ( in fact I think you gave him too much freedom.... ) and not just only a raze 3rd cultural expedition... Willem will always be acontender for the UN vote as long as he hold it and Rotherdam is not exactly in the border....

 

[madscientist]

Thanks for all the advice. I waged a large war against Willem this morning before leaving for work. We took several borders cities, razed sevel and raze the Hauge and the 4th highest culture city. We did not attack the UN city. As of the save we have over 40% of the population, enough to block the UN diplomatic vote.

The plan is to rebuild population in the cities, perhaps get some health (we did get pillaged on the seas), rebuild the army, and go for the killing thrust against Willem and probably Justinian. At that point we will see where we are in domination, as Saladin and Charlemange are still in SP.

Gotta say, this has been one of the better RPCs to play. A little of everything here, and throughout all the ages.

I'll post the segment tonight before I start the next (and perhaps final) segment.