Role Play CHallenge: Joao the Restless

[madscientist]

Joao the Restless: Part II

KILL, KILL, KILL. KILL the FREAK!!!!!

Wait, this is not Monty, some more culture and refinement is required for such a noble leader as Joao!

We mined the iron, built roads, chopped a barrack in each city, then spammed/chopped mostly swords with a few axes and spears for stack defense if not style.

The tech path went: Sailing/mysticism/writing/pottery/masonry/start agriculture.

We met one of the last 2 AIs.

Well, I am happy it took so long to meet him, indicating to me that he's FAR away.

But back to the matter at hand.

A decent early stack, although we continued to build swords/swords/swords!!!

Here is the powergraph demonstrating our superiority and the likelyhood that Sury has limited military resources.

The hell with that coastal city, our stack steamrolls directly to where I think the capital is.

As we moved on, look what we found!!!! An unimproved rion resource. Too bad Sury, a few turns too late!

Yes I am very happy to keep an AI capital!!!

We moved onto the city to the east which was built on a desert tile.

We razed it.

Now we attack that northern coastal Khmerian city. Fresh troops from the east, and a recovered stack from the south.

And we decide to keep this one.

Sury was now down to 2 recently built cities that were without resources.

Kaboom #1!

Kaboom #2

Sury and his creative trait are no more. Sorry Sury, we expected more of a fight from you.

So that leaves us with 5 pretty decent coastal cities, 2 capital quality. I plan to drop one more to claim the two gold and a farmable floodplains for a commerce boost!!!

We did revolt to Buddhism as that seams to be the religious flavor of the time. Brennus is Hindu but he's in horrid northern lands too and we can defend againt him. We can just adopt OR to keep him happy.

OK, so we have good military for a while. Graneries/libraries aplenty I say. Run some scientist specialists and save the first one to bulb compass, save any other GPs for the voyage to the new world.

So what exactly do we need??

Reagrding wonders, GW and SH have dropped, pyramids/oracle are fair game although I don't think the oracle is worth trying as we have no marble and little chance to get it first. Pyramids in the capital???? Sounds good to me.

Now, regarding what we need for Caracks?

Optics
Compass (we have IW)
Machinery
MC

That's it, right?????

Now, do we need math/currency/alphabet/CoL, or can we try and get them from our Buddhists brothers and sister????

One final point, is 6 citie enough for now??? Remember we have a large map, not teh usual RPC standard.

 

[madscientist]

I'm currently playing the opposite of this game with the scenario save...

Joao II the Perfectly Content

A one city challenge

NT, sounds like a great compliment!!! I would be eager to see the results!

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Yes! Good job on taking out my worst enemy.

If the great lighthouse is still up for grabs get that. Probably more useful than the mids.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

NT, sounds like a great compliment!!! I would be eager to see the results!

It's going surprisingly well.

*spoilers I guess, but it doesn't really say anything specific about the map or anything, nor does it say the AI that you haven't met)

Spoiler :

I managed to grab the Great Wall and the Pyramids, as well as the Great Library and the University of Sankore. I have avoided war so far, although the AI that you haven't met yet, is very mad at me, so I'll have to start building my army! They probably won't DoW on me but just in case....

I also won the circumnavigate/whatever bonus with my carracks. I also got the Liberalism race, but I missed out on the Colossus by one turn

Khmerfreak is doing excellent though.... he even managed to build Angkor Wat! (though not in the city of Angkor Wat...in Yasodurapurahura) Good thing you wiped him out.

Anyway, it's doing good. I think I'm gonna try for a diplomatic or a space race victory. Joao is fine with his cold but comfortable city of Lisbon!

 

[InvisibleStalke]

This is the best RPC idea I've seen - a real challenge I think.

Some thoughts:

- Lightbulb great people towards Astronomy. No point in settling them or building academies. Save later great people to take with you.

- Little point in cottage economy for early game - no long term rewards. But go cottage spam on new world.

- Can you build two national wonders? Once you lose a national wonder to a colony can you build it again?

- Does your colony get to keep its national wonders? ie if you build National Epic can you set up your colony with an ultra GP farm?

- A conquest / domination win could be interesting. Colonize new world. Setup cities for max wealth production - ie cottages. Whip / Draft a big army in the old world - do vassals inherit whip weariness? Start conquest war. Liberate colony. Give each city you capture to vassal. Long term goal is that your vassal becomes more powerful than anyone and takes over the war for you while you cottage up the new world. Who cares if your new world economy is crashing - you might be able to ride your vassal to victory!

- How else can you use an uber vassal? Most probably you won't be generating more great people for a long time and you won't be researching much either. Your vassal starts with a clean slate for great people though and might start researching considerably quicker than you. You might be able to request techs from them. Spying on your vassal might be worthwhile as the first step in recoverying your economy.

- One alternative to rushing their quickly is to ignore Astronomy. Let the AI get there first while going all out for Rifling and then State Property. Then invade and capture the new world including any AI cities. State Property will let you run the two together with impunity while you get setup on the new world and then just switch at the last minute.

 

[Gath]

looks like a fun game.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

This is the best RPC idea I've seen - a real challenge I think.

Some thoughts:

- Lightbulb great people towards Astronomy. No point in settling them or building academies. Save later great people to take with you.
.

This is Portugal, they don't need Astronomy

 

[InvisibleStalke]

This is Portugal, they don't need Astronomy

No, but without it your cities on the new world can't trade with the old. They are really handicapped. And how many carracks will you need to ship across an army to take the barb cities and the 7-8 settlers and workers you will need to setup?

 

[NintendoTogepi]

This RPC is definitely generating a lot of interest, four pages already! I'm really glad I proposed the idea

Joao II the Perfectly Content is doing well, I've got the whole world embroiled in war, and I've been in a war with one of the AIs for like 200 turns! (Thankfully neither of us have done much combat...he destroyed my 3 carracks roaming the great seas and I sent one small stack that got destroyed, but otherwise nada. He's never come anywhere near Portugal) Maybe it should be called "Joao II God of War"

And the spaceship is about 75% done, pfft, the other civilizations have been focused on the new world for hundreds of years...who cares about the new world, when there's SPACE to explore!

Of course, knowing Joao II the Perfectly Content, he'll probably just find a nice sized planet and build a massive satellite orbiting it to house the Portuguese civilization Pfft, who cares about exploring these strange and odd planets, orbit in a satellite (with the gravity making machine of course) is just fine! (I actually like to think this is what happens a lot of time with my OCC space race victories, it seems more likely somehow...)

But anyway, I'm not used to playing OCC's with a leader who isn't Philosophical or Industrious (the only two good OCC traits, shame there isn't a leader with both). I think I'm doing pretty good considering I'm not used to Noble, and I'm using a leader with two pretty useless traits for a OCC! (Expansive is okay but still pretty meh, only useful at the beginning, and Imperalistic is pretty much completely useless, only good for the very rare Conquest OCC, and even then it's meh compared to Charismatic in that use)

I look forward to finishing it tomorrow (there's about a 75% chance of a win, hopefully there won't be a diplomatic win...and hopefully one of the three major powers won't DoW on me...I'm friendly with all 3 so that seems unlikely) and posting a recap with some pictures.

 

[siggboy]

Edit: On careful consideration I have spoilered some tactical information that might kill the fun in the original game. Feel free to read, there's nothing in there that specifically applies to this map in particular (which I've shadowed already so I'm ahead of the OP regarding information).

KILL, KILL, KILL. KILL the FREAK!!!!!

I'm VERY envious at your early rushing skills, Mad. You killed him 400 years earlier than I did. Your city placement sucks, though ;-). You should have kept that coastal city on the desert, it was the only spot to grab the two seafood while still having access to all the hills for production (it was one of my best production cities in the old world, and coastal as well).
To grab the two missing gold hills, you should have razed the northern of the two last Khmer cities and rebuilt.

OK, so we have good military for a while. Graneries/libraries aplenty I say. Run some scientist specialists and save the first one to bulb compass, save any other GPs for the voyage to the new world.

Don't bulb Compass, it's way too cheap. If anything, bulb Optics (if you have Machinery). I would, however, bulb Philosophy (delay Machinery!) and switch to Pacifism/Caste System, then continue to generate loads and loads of Great People in the capital. Don't forget that you can use a Great Merchant very well too. With Caste System and not many wonders in the capital you can practically generate any GP at will.

Don't forget to run an Engineer along with those Scientists. If you get a Great Engineer by chance that opens loads of options (bulb Machinery or rush a wonder, maybe in the colonies even).

Reagrding wonders, GW and SH have dropped, pyramids/oracle are fair game although I don't think the oracle is worth trying as we have no marble and little chance to get it first. Pyramids in the capital???? Sounds good to me.

Try the Oracle -- the free tech is something you will keep, while you will lose the Pyramids to your colony sooner or later (and never get it back). I think the Oracle is still possible to get first, sometimes it gets built really late even on Monarch difficulty. You can take CoL or Metal Casting with it, both are great (CoL for Caste System and Courthouses/FP, MC on the way to Optics and for running an engineer specialist).

Now, do we need math/currency/alphabet/CoL, or can we try and get them from our Buddhists brothers and sister????

Research Metal Casting and trade it for the rest. With so many buddhists you can probably trade with all of them without pissing off anybody. The AI always, always delays MC so it's perfect trading material (very expensive tech so you get anything you want from it).

One final point, is 6 citie enough for now??? Remember we have a large map, not teh usual RPC standard.

Six cities is definitely enough, maybe even more than enough. Remember that half of the large map is still completely unclaimed, and won't be accessible for any AI except barbs for a loooong time. So don't overexpand on the starting continent now.

By the way, it's definitely a good idea to start colonizing ASAP after you have Optics. In my game I've waited way too long with settling the new lands (fortunately I did have Emancipation, so my economy built up reasonably fast). Every additional turn your cottages can grow adds up to a hefty sum of gold later. That's just common sense of course, but it's easy to get sidetracked on the starting continent and losing sight of the Bigger Goal.

Maintenance cost:

Spoiler :

Regarding maintenance burden to expect: it was not as bad as I thought. I built the Forbidden Palace in the old lands, then the Palace in the new world, and my total maintenance cost WENT DOWN! So don't delay building the palace for that reason, it might be even better to do it early. Since your capital is your GP farm anyway, losing a possible Bureaucracy bonus is half as bad as it seems.

- Lightbulb great people towards Astronomy. No point in settling them or building academies. Save later great people to take with you.

As mentioned above, I would not bulb anything except maybe Optics. Compass is too cheap and there are better techs you can bulb that you're going to research anyway (Philo/Paper/Edu/Liberalism).

Astronomy:

Spoiler :

Do not bulb/research Astronomy because you have a really good chance to get it from a goody hut!

If you actually manage to get the Pyramids (I would not pursue them, though), building an Academy in the capital might be worth it though. The amount of specialists you can run in the capital while STILL having the city grow is astounding (five seafood resources).

Spoiler :

Also keep it mind that while you technically "lose" the Academy when you declare independence, it will still help your vassal with research, and you want to abuse the vassal as a laboratory rat later on (you can tell vassals what to research).

- Little point in cottage economy for early game - no long term rewards. But go cottage spam on new world.

It doesn't hurt to cottage spam now with all the free workers. It will also guarantee that your lands are nicely improved when you hand it over to the AI. If you leave too many blank tiles the AI will overfarm as it always does. We want a commerce AI though, and not a production AI, so we can trade more techs.

- Can you build two national wonders? Once you lose a national wonder to a colony can you build it again?

You can build all national wonders again after you granted indepence to the old colony.

- Does your colony get to keep its national wonders? ie if you build National Epic can you set up your colony with an ultra GP farm?

Your colony keeps everything except for the Feitora bonus (Feitoras become normal Customs Houses after indepence; I've checked this by spying into the cities of my vassal).

You also don't need to leave a garrison in the colony. As soon as you grant them independence they get two garrison units per city for free (e.g. Longbows, Musketmen or Riflemen, depending on what your most modern tech at that point is).

They also get all technologies that you have researched at this point, which possibly matters a lot since they might start to trade techs with your rivals right away (so maybe make those trades yourself before your vassal does it).

You keep all your units, including Great People, so there's no need to evacuate them before gifting the colony.

- How else can you use an uber vassal? Most probably you won't be generating more great people for a long time and you won't be researching much either. Your vassal starts with a clean slate for great people though and might start researching considerably quicker than you. You might be able to request techs from them. Spying on your vassal might be worthwhile as the first step in recoverying your economy.

You can tell your vassal what to research. They switch immediately and don't research anything else unless you tell them. You still need a worthwhile tech to trade to them for what they've researched because they won't give it away for free, no matter how high their attitude bonuses are.

You can also tell them to attack a city while you're at war, but usually it takes them ages to react.

Spoiler :

The vassal that will be created (it will be Washington of USA) is not exactly a warmonger.

I tried the "attack the city" command in my shadow game a few times, but it didn't amount to much.

In my game I'm using the vassal exclusively to tech side-branches, then trade for what I've just researched. It can be difficult to stop it from leaking "your" techs to rival AIs, though (you have to bribe him into a trade embargo with techs or gold).

- One alternative to rushing their quickly is to ignore Astronomy. Let the AI get there first while going all out for Rifling and then State Property. Then invade and capture the new world including any AI cities. State Property will let you run the two together with impunity while you get setup on the new world and then just switch at the last minute.

State Property is really important, but that's nothing new anyway . The AI takes ages before they start to research Astronomy. You will be established on the new world for a long, long time before you see the first rival Galleon arrive.

Spoiler :

Regarding Astronomy: it would be very wise to declare independence before you get that tech (might be impossible if you pop it from a hut early). This is because then your vassal won't have it, and you don't want your vassal to leak this key tech to the AI (he will probably trade it to them for Divine Right or some other useless tech).

 

[siggboy]

And how many carracks will you need to ship across an army to take the barb cities and the 7-8 settlers and workers you will need to setup?

It will take a Carrack maybe 10 turns to reach the other landmass on a typical map. If you make five or so Carracks that's more than enough to ship over your people at the same pace that you can produce them. The Carrack has two cargo slots instead of one (Caravel), so it's not as bad as it seems. Galleons are only marginally better (partly due to the fact that they are a bit faster as well).

Mad plays on Marathon speed, so the travel time of the ships is even less of an issue. A handful of Carracks will be more than adequate to do the job.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

No, but without it your cities on the new world can't trade with the old. They are really handicapped. And how many carracks will you need to ship across an army to take the barb cities and the 7-8 settlers and workers you will need to setup?

Probably 20 or so....but the Carracks just help him get started with the colonization...after all, Optics is on the way to Astronomy

Siggboy, while most of what you said I wouldn't really consider a spoiler (and it's quite helpful), I would spoiler tag who the colony is going to be

Also, I just wanted to say that it's definitely good that

Spoiler :

Mad took out Savarsureismeandadiayaradarapuraman II so early. He's a beast in my current game, a large empire, TONS of wonders, (more then any other civ, how can a non Industrious leader with no Stone or Marble build so many?!) Sid's Sushi founded, Islam founded, second highest score and Tokugawa as his vassal! The only one greater then him is the mega civ with a colony and a vassal, who I shall reveal tomorrow

 

[siggboy]

Siggboy, while most of what you say I wouldn't really consider a spoiler (and it's quite helpful), I would spoiler tag who the colony is going to be

Spoiler :

I was wondering if I should spoiler it when I reread my posting and I was sure somebody would bring it up . On the other hand, since your first colony is ALWAYS Washington, and the next one Roosevelt, it's not a big surprise in this scenario either. I'm still going to spoiler it.

Regarding the spoileresqueness of my latest ramblings: I'm really not sure if and where I've crossed the line there. Most of the things I've written are general observations that apply to any game that makes heavy use of the colonization feature. The scenario is hard enough to win as it is, even if you can avoid some nasty surprises by knowing certain things in advance.

My apologies if some of my remarks have taken a bit of "surprise momentum" out of the game for some (I don't think they have, however).

Edit: I've spoiler tagged a part of my article now as to stay on the safe side with not revealing too much tactical information.

 

[madscientist]

Reagrding Atronomy, I think we need it pretty fast as Inv Stalk says to establish intercontoinental trade routes, uless the UU does this which I don't think. If I recall from Willems game, that means we can bulb astronomy with 2 GS's providing we avoid CoL, CS, and theology (to avoid opening up philosphy or paper). Trying to play this game without courthouses seams like a bad idea, so I think we need to target astronomy via the liberalism Bulb race.

 

[siggboy]

Reagrding Atronomy, I think we need it pretty fast as Inv Stalk says to establish intercontoinental trade routes, uless the UU does this which I don't think. If I recall from Willems game, that means we can bulb astronomy with 2 GS's providing we avoid CoL, CS, and theology (to avoid opening up philosphy or paper). Trying to play this game without courthouses seams like a bad idea, so I think we need to target astronomy via the liberalism Bulb race.

This is something I spoilered, just in case, but as I've mentioned it in the RPC poll thread already, and it's not a huge secret: you can get Astronomy from goody huts, and it's not even a rare event. Apparently the game picks this technology for huts, and with the abundance of unclaimed tribal villages in the new world, your chances are pretty high that you will get the tech for free. It is not guaranteed, however.

So, for that reason I would at least not commit any resources specifically towards Astronomy at least before you've popped a good many huts on the other continent. The intercontinental trade is quite essential, though, so you can't hold back on Astro forever. It's not just about the commmerce, but also about the fact that we won't have access to our resources on the new continent (problematic as we reach the happy cap with the new cities, depending on which civics we are in at that point).

I'd definitely go the tried and proven way of bulbing towards Liberalism (Philosophy->Paper->Education). This also allows you to take Nationalism with Liberalism, in case you discover Astronomy from a hut. Nationalism is on the way to Democracy, and early Emancipation really helps to kickstart commerce in the unclaimed lands. Not to talk about the goodness of early Philosophy (Pacifism) for Great People generation.

 

[Orzio]

Rememeber that the barbarian probably have a unti on evry hut to protect it so you may not be abel to open them up with a explorer.

Fun note from my shadow game is that evry civ is now budhist We are one big religous familly but sitll tons off wars for some reason.

 

[siggboy]

Rememeber that the barbarian probably have a unti on evry hut to protect it so you may not be abel to open them up with a explorer.

Indeed. Sometimes the "hut guard" will attack your explorer, and possibly die if it's just a Warrior or Archer, but if they don't you're out of luck. It's very tedious to pop all the huts without mounted units, so getting those would be my first priority (currently we don't have any access to horses, so those would have to be acquired in the new world, unless somebody trades them to us).

 

[Nares]

They are really handicapped. And how many carracks will you need to ship across an army to take the barb cities and the 7-8 settlers and workers you will need to setup?

2-3 to carry explorers to pop what few huts remain unguarded. Hopefully you pop Astronomy.

 

[Groogaroo]

Nice! You really just steamrolled Sury. Well played.

I don't know if I would bother with the Pyramids, its a lot of hammers and you can't take it with you when you go to the new world. With all those lovely gold mines you have a pretty powerful output for research. I think its time to focus on getting off this landmass.

Optics is bulbable with a Great scientist, providing you have compass/machinery to open it up to research, you also need wheel/writing/maths/alphabet to unlock the bulb and avoid any techs that open up philosophy (meditation). Although don't take my word for it! Its quite possible I've made a mistake there somewhere.

But if you get those goldmines running you may not need to bulb at all.

 

[madscientist]

I reviewed the Willem RPC and here is what I found

To get Optics by 130 BC we teched IW/MC/Machinery/Compass/Optics.

I believe we held off alphabet/math/currency/calender/CoL until optics. In that game we had to backfill alot of techs to get astronomy which was the big tech because of teh Dutch UU. That's not the case here.

Also in this game we have ALOT of good trading buddies, so if we tech along the MC/Compass/Machinery/Optics line we can trade off techs like MC for alphabet, math, calender while saving the first GS to bulb Compass (I think CoL is the tech to avoid, not just meditation).

So here's the paln

Tech MC

Backfill alphabet/math/calender

Tech Machinery

Bulb Compass

That leaves Optics which may or may not be bulbable.


Another questions I have, how does trade routes work for new world cities that do not have access to astronomy. Say I settle 5 cities on the New world, can they trade amongst themselves or do they need access to the capital? I ask because I have had games where I captured several AI cities that were conencted to each other via roads, but not the capital yet and they had no trade routes between each other until the capital got connected.

If this is the case, we may want 1-2 seed New World cities then agressively seek to bulb astronomy in the New World. The carracks will get us faster access to the New Wrodl but Astronomy may very well be they big key here.