Role Play CHallenge: Joao the Restless

[madscientist]

Curious how do huts work since the game has been shadowed and peopel shadowing it have gotten astronemy from hut dosent that mean there are huts on the new world that will give astronemy?

My guess is that those huts I popped with crossbows and unleashed unfriendly units would have popped Astronomy if opened with a spy. A big error on my part.

There are 1 or 2 huts left that I ran out of crossbows to open, so I can still try a spy on those.

 

[nbcman]

@ madscientist

I don't think that spies give any better results than any other units other than scouts/explorers. The spies will allow you to pop a hut that is guarded by a barb unit. So if the spy does unleash barb units, the barb units can't attack the spy. The barb units then can be killed at your leisure as they move toward your new world cities or you can send out 'search and destroy' units to kill the barbs on the terrain of your choice.

 

[madscientist]

@ madscientist

I don't think that spies give any better results than any other units other than scouts/explorers. The spies will allow you to pop a hut that is guarded by a barb unit. So if the spy does unleash barb units, the barb units can't attack the spy. The barb units then can be killed at your leisure as they move toward your new world cities or you can send out 'search and destroy' units to kill the barbs on the terrain of your choice.

OK, so a spy can still pop the unfriendly units. Good for the archer guarded hill/forrest hut, but otherwise crossbows ar ejust as effective providing they survive the ticked off barbs.

 

[siggboy]

Curious how do huts work since the game has been shadowed and peopel shadowing it have gotten astronemy from hut dosent that mean there are huts on the new world that will give astronemy?

As it appears it is always the same huts that give a technology. I'm assuming that because the hut that gave me Astronomy was the exact same both times that I've played the map. I've just compared the two screenshots that I had made to verify that.

I assume that the same hut also gave Mad a technology, but unfortunately he got Horseback Riding (because it was still unknown at the time). It might have been something else, possibly Astronomy if he had traded for HBR earlier.

The amount of gold that you get varies after reloading a save and re-opening the same hut again.

At the end of the day, it might just have been a coincidence, and the hut rewards are only chosen when you pop it, and not at map generation. One would have to make a test map to investigate that (maybe somebody here knows for sure?).

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I'm advancing in my second attempt to the map, and I've found out that nothing beats SE in this situation. My homeland has only two cities, and I'm running 8 merchants under representation at the moment, and the capital generates more than 50% of the research (the slider is at 50%, running a slight deficit).

I'm birthing Great People like crazy (Caste System + Pacifism + Nat Epic).

I have two Great Engineers parked in the new lands, one will be rushing the Statue of Liberty now .

So, Mad, here's my advice: do everything it takes to win the Liberalism race, take Nationalism and research Constitution ASAP. Then switch to Representation and enjoy the beaker rain in the former capital. Your lack of commerce will be much less of a problem then.

Be careful about the drop in Lisbon after the switch. You might have to build -buildings like market (you can grab Gems soon) first.

Right now to me it seems as, on this particular map, running everything from Lisbon via an SE economy is unbeatable. I begin to understand the SE zealots more and more. It's a superior concept.

I agree with this, I was hoping Mad would run a SE in the old world. It worked well enough for my two failed attempts at Joao II the Restless and my attempt at Joao II the Perfectly Content. (but then again, pretty much all OCC's run SEs)

I actually am really bad at running CEs....for some strange reason

 

[Gliese 581]

Curious how do huts work since the game has been shadowed and peopel shadowing it have gotten astronemy from hut dosent that mean there are huts on the new world that will give astronemy?

Not necessarily. If those that shadow play EXACTLY like madscientist move by move turn by turn then there is a 100% chance that they will pop the same stuff. If they don't, results may vary.
You could basically view it as the western interpretation of karma.. what comes depends on your actions prior to it, everything affects the outcome. I'm not a programmer though so don't ask me for technical details.

 

[Nares]

Not necessarily. If those that shadow play EXACTLY like madscientist move by move turn by turn then there is a 100% chance that they will pop the same stuff. If they don't, results may vary.

I wish I had a list of the three moves I made during the five turns after I picked up one of the saves (right after researching IW, I think).

Pick up the save, hit enter, tin event at the capital. Move the scout once, twice, three times, fortify for a turn or two, and have Iron pop in the same hill that sported the tin event five turns earlier.

 

[madscientist]

Update on it's way. Slow and plodding. Lost liberalism by 13 turns!!! No independence yet, but perhaps in the next segment, but wanted to discuss that first.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Update on it's way. Slow and plodding. Lost liberalism by 13 turns!!! No independence yet, but perhaps in the next segment, but wanted to discuss that first.

Yikes!

 

[madscientist]

Joao the Restless: Part V

I will admit, this segment is rather dull and lot's of screenshots of trades, something that is keeping us in this game, by our fingernails!!!

The FP on old Portugal and the GM mission allowed us to up the science slider to 40% with a soso deficit. In retrospect I could have gone higher and avoided some later trades and perhaps hit liberalism. However, we chose a different route and will live with what we have.

After Paper

It's about all we have to offer. Now during this time alot of people are at war, including a bloodbath between Victoria and Shaka in which neither appears to have gotten the upper hand.

SO I decided to play this a little differently and traded away paper to anyone who wanted it.

So we ended up with Fuedalism and theology at the cost of paper and 300 gold. Not too bad.

I feel a littel better, but not a whole lot. Also paper to Justyinian cost liberalism but I wonder how many techs we actually got in return??

We start expanding the new world SLOWLY

A good source of happiness from the sugar, needed until Astronomy.

We also settled a city to the north to claim 2 gems although it took along time to chop out the jungle. Damn, I am bad at getting enough workers.

As you can see here, alot of colonies have been spun off, and alot of AIs are at war with each other.

As luck would have it, we popped another GM, which we sent for a 3900 gold mission.

Now, here is where we are at

Justinian and Victoria alreayd have education, so I assume (correctly) one if not both are beelining liberalism. So I trade away education to everyone.

Leaving us

OK, not finished yet, next turn

OK, let's sum this up, at the total cost of education and about 1000 gold we got

Gunpowder
Drama
Music
Philosophy
Guilds
Nationalsim.

I say that getting Fuedalism/theology/Gunpowder/drama/music/philosphy/guilds/nationalism is a fair price for losing teh liberalism race. The only problem is I tried my best to get astronomy to no avail.

We start getting a little more bold and form an assault force to take a barb city.

What I do not understand is WHY there is some unhappiness from we wish to join our old home??

After liberalism, I swap civics

FR may be an issue in diplomacy and I may have to revert to Buddhism/theology to make friends with Justinian and Saladin.

After liberalism we made some more trades

OK, add printing press and liberalism to the tech swap equations.

I saved here after teching a bit of astronomy

to be continued

 

[madscientist]

Joao the Restless: PArt V continued

OK, after all those trades

Yes we are still in a hole. I say we need to target the internet somehow.

The new world

OK, I think I am planning on taking out those remaining barb cities, filling in with other cities, and build a new FP in the north once we spin off the Old world.

A closeup of the Panama/Florida regions

And a closeup of the sourthen area.

And finally the cities.

Those Old world cities are depressingly supporting the entire economy.

OK, so I say we tech off astronomy and see what we have. AFter that I think we really need constitution/democracy as we are having some emancipation declarations plus I think we want to quicken cottage growth pace.

OK, the truth how bad am I doing.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I'd swap back into Buddhism for diplomatic reasons.

Anyway...well, you're not doing horrible.

Let's just hope we won't have to see a Joao II the Restless II!

 

[Shekwan]

Great idea for an RPC. I see your great merchant was Christopher Columbus too!

 

[dankok8]

I've never seen Toku do well in tech!! wow!! I guess cuz he's a colony; you're behind in tech but you got the largest empire so you can catch up. Just control Vicky and Justinian if you can as they are your main rivals. Maybe you can win a UN victory here if you make friends since everyone hates each other.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Toku isn't a colony. He's just very small because he got blocked in by Wang Kon and his wars against him were unsuccessful and never got bigger.

It's surprisng Victoria vassaled Brennus and Tokugawa. All too often she gets totally smacked around by the more aggresive civs.

Ok. you need astronomy. You need it bad. I think it was a mistake to even try for liberalism without building research, and you should have gone straight for astronomy instead. But what's done is done. Build research! Going at 100% with deficit research and building research will cut down the time to 15 turns, though you'll run out of money. Do it. Astronomy will improve your situation drastically.

Also get back to budhism asap. You have no friends right now. You lost all the friends you had when you switched out of Buddhism. It's not like the world is religiously divided. Switching out of it was a huge mistake and you wasted 8 turns for absolutely no reason by switching out of it and then having to switch back. The 10% research is not worth it to have the majority of the world drop down from friendly and pleased to cautious or annoyed.

On the plus side, the new world is still completely yours, so that's good. I don't think anybody has set a city down at all in it. They're mostly busy settling the southern islands, so that's great. I'm not seeing a domination victory possible right now. Space Race might be possible if you beeline the internet. Culture is also another strong possibility. Save your next merchant if you get one for Sid's Sushi and then try to get an artist or engineer for one of the other 2 culture corps. A late culture victory's the best victory condition, i think. But then again, i'm not sure if it's possible starting so late. On the plus side once you get astronomy you should get a nice variety of religions in your old cities.

 

[vanatteveldt]

It suprises me how few resources there are in the new world. What I loved in the old Imperialism game is how you had to go to the new world to get the luxuries to make your old world cities flourish. The new world should really have something like sugar, coffe, chocolate, furs, gold and silver. I think I've only seen one luxury resource in the new world here. Is that normal in terra maps? Is there an alternative map script that makes the old world rich in land and strategic resources and the new in luxuries?

 

[siggboy]

OK, let's sum this up, at the total cost of education and about 1000 gold we got

Gunpowder
Drama
Music
Philosophy
Guilds
Nationalsim.

I say that getting Fuedalism/theology/Gunpowder/drama/music/philosphy/guilds/nationalism is a fair price for losing teh liberalism race. The only problem is I tried my best to get astronomy to no avail.

I agree, this was pretty decent. Losing the Lib race lost you one free tech, and while this hurts it's not a game-breaker. Getting to Lib first is a bonus, as is getting the Oracle first or stealing a Worker early. None of the above are needed for a win, let's keep that in mind. You've traded Lib and Education for some expensive techs, including Nationalism, which is great.

We start getting a little more bold and form an assault force to take a barb city.

This coastal barb city is going to be an excellent production center later on (I've built Heroic Epic, Military Academy and Moai Statues there in my game).

What I do not understand is WHY there is some unhappiness from we wish to join our old home??

The Barbarian State does build culture as any other civ, only a lot slower. If you wait long enough you see border expansions on Barbarian cities.

After liberalism, I swap civics
FR may be an issue in diplomacy and I may have to revert to Buddhism/theology to make friends with Justinian and Saladin.

Frankly, I have no idea why you did that... big mistake. What is FR good for in this situation? What you want now is Pacifism, or Organized Religion maybe, but not Free Religion.

Go research Constitution next so you can run Representation, and then switch to Pacifism and Caste System. If you do some quick math: 7-8 specialists are easily supported in Lisbon; each of them will get a +3 beaker bonus from Representation, so that's 20+ additional beakers after Representation from the former capital alone, not even counting all the other cities where you can convert weak/unimproved tiles into a 6 beaker scientist.

Yes we are still in a hole. I say we need to target the internet somehow.

You're doing fine. I don't quite recall the details, but I was probably in a similar tech situation at this point in the game in my second attempt, and later on I couldn't trade techs anymore because I was ahead of everybody. I did end up building the Internet, and got zero techs out of it (but kept it out of the hands of the AI).

The AIs will continue to spend resources on wars, and as long as you don't get dragged into one they won't be able to beat you in the long run, with all the precious land you are about to settle.

OK, I think I am planning on taking out those remaining barb cities filling in with other cities, and build a new FP in the north once we spin off the Old world.

Something to keep in mind, because it's somewhat easily forgotten: Communism. With State Property you don't need any FP/Versailles anymore, and can start plunking down cities almost at will.

In my second game I ended up not building the FP at all. I was thinking about rushing Versailles with a GE at one point, but when I got beaten to it I was almost glad. I simply researched Communism after Scientific Method, switched to State Property and stayed there until the very end of the game. I couldn't build those settlers fast enough anymore. All of the coastal cities would pay for themselves right off the bat, due to the trade routes. Founded an almost useless city on top of ice marble, just to get the resource -- the city even ran a profit .

So Astronomy, Constitution and Communism are the key techs in this phase of the game. Astro for commerce, Constitution for research and Communism to allow for a land rush (the AI won't hold back on those new lands forever).

Those Old world cities are depressingly supporting the entire economy.

That shouldn't be depressing as it is normal at this point. BTW you can't liberate these a lot earlier than 1776 AD. I couldn't have afforded it in my game and still win, and you won't either -- that's pretty much guaranteed. So don't even think about pulling that "liberation trigger" any time soon.

OK, so I say we tech off astronomy and see what we have. AFter that I think we really need constitution/democracy as we are having some emancipation declarations plus I think we want to quicken cottage growth pace.

It's a shame that you have to waste so many turns researching Astronomy now. How unfortunate it was to get Horseback Riding instead of Astronomy from that goody hut . Anyway, I agree with Balbanes that there's probably no way around it, you need to get it soon to connect the two continents and boost your income.

BTW as soon as Astronomy connects that Marble to Lisbon you should build the National Epic there, if not earlier. And also build the Heroic Epic in the best of the "old" production cities, and don't forget the Moai Statues.
All of the National Wonders you can build again at a later time in the new world.

Tech order should be:

Astronomy, Constitution, Scientific Method, Communism (for the reasons mentioned above).

Trade Nationalism to as many civs as possible, so they can research Constitution for you (trade for Astronomy then).

OK, the truth how bad am I doing.

Not bad at all. That civic switch was boneheaded, sorry I have to say that, but apart from that it's not as bad as it seemingly looks to you at the moment.

At some point in the game you will start recovering really quickly and probably take the tech lead at some point.

The biggest danger still are wars getting into your way, or the diplo situation getting out of hand, not the economy, which will recover.

REPRESENTATION, CASTE SYSTEM, PACIFISM!

Do it. Astronomy will improve your situation drastically.

I agree. Since I always got it so early from the villagers in my own games, I don't even know how it is to delay Astronomy here, but it can't be a winning strategy ;-).

The 10% research is not worth it to have the majority of the world drop down from friendly and pleased to cautious or annoyed.

Not even speaking of the loss of the 25% production bonus for buildings... which is what pretty much every city in the new world is making right now.

Space Race might be possible if you beeline the internet.

Space Race is possible simply by staying out of wars (unless you have a runaway AI that totally gets out of hand, but they'll end up declaring on you at some point anyway).

We're one third into the game right now, I don't understand why everybody is so panicky...

 

[siggboy]

It suprises me how few resources there are in the new world. Is that normal in terra maps? Is there an alternative map script that makes the old world rich in land and strategic resources and the new in luxuries?

It's normal, and I've compared a few maps in world builder just to check it out.

The old world gets more resources because all of the city start location are there, and the map script artificially boosts the area around the settler starting positions.

BTW great idea of having the Luxuries in the new world .

 

[siggboy]

I've just played a few turns from your last save point, Mad. I think you've gone a bit over the top with those Carracks, and you're building non-essential improvements. Too many cottages at this point (kickstart with farms if no food nearby and build more cottages later), and don't build Castles and Barracks now, it's a waste of production.
If the AI attacks you then you're done, the castles won't save you (your power rating is low but castles don't make such a big difference).

I've also reassigned a lot of specialists and that shaved a few turns off Astronomy already.

The former capital needs a lot more love, move in some units to raise the happy cap and queue up more improvements there (Moai Statues and National Epic), or use as a worker pump.

Stop building military at the moment and build a few more workers. You have many cities already in the new world and you need them.

It's a lot of small things that need adjustment, but overall things are looking OK to me.

I'm also not sure how you are going to capture that city in the north with two trebs and four attackers. There are four strong defender in there already and the bombardment will take long. I think one more city is too much at this point anyway, so probably save it for later.

 

[Orzio]

Remember that as soon as you liberate your colony he will trade away all your teches so either liberate before you get astronemy or when most other civ have gotten astronemy, so that you dont do the same mistake i did. Liberating him some turns after poping astronemy from a hut resulting that some years later evry civ was runing around and making citys in the new world.