Role Play Challenge: Peter, Spy Extraordinaire II

[cripp7]

4) At this point you can see everyone's research and can move the slider if you want (I still see no benefit to this). Research what noone else does or at least your enemies, and steal what your enemy techs.

Personally, I think EE is not a good economy or approach. Maybe fun to try, but not useful. Best to use the eps to see research, disrupt AI production or most importantly revolt cities during Assaults.

I agree with that also. Stealing techs up to mid game is great, but after that it's mainly for to see research and view cities so you can see what they're producing. Taking 2-3 spies in SoD will help bring down that cultral border. saves on that trebs/cannons.

 

[Infantry#14]

have you tried a pangea game w/ ee? (I havent seen your past ee games) I think the main problem in this game is that cyrus and one other ai (Monty?) were oversea and well protected from war and espionage. If they had been at the mainland, I'm sure there would be much more warfare btw the AIs and you could use diplomacy and espionage more at your own advanage.

In general, ee games can only be effective if you have a large empire. I think you should have aimed for land dominance at your contienent in the beginning by killing off Hammurabi first, expand to victoria and saladin. Then cutoff there and cruise though diplo/SS victory.

 

[madscientist]

have you tried a pangea game w/ ee? (I havent seen your past ee games) I think the main problem in this game is that cyrus and one other ai (Monty?) were oversea and well protected from war and espionage. If they had been at the mainland, I'm sure there would be much more warfare btw the AIs and you could use diplomacy and espionage more at your own advanage.

In general, ee games can only be effective if you have a large empire. I think you should have aimed for land dominance at your contienent in the beginning by killing off Hammurabi first, expand to victoria and saladin. Then cutoff there and cruise though diplo/SS victory.

The map is a Big/Little, som contact is open between all. Pnagea could be different.

A larger empire would certainly help an EE, but then again it helps a CE, SE, TE etc..... By the time you have grown that large, you either have a dominance in tech, which makes ee inefficient or looking for military domination. As I said before, what would be the purpose of the ee, you have already built up the empire. A SE, CE, TE is great for getting the empire going as is relying on religion or warfare. The EE takes so long to develope properly, that you might as well stick with what got you there.

 

[semirami]

You can still win the diplomatic victory. Currently Vicky+Abe will vote for you and you need only +(1-2) modifyers for Sal and Hammy to vote as well. Should be enough. The problem is how you will steal MM in time and how you will generate a great engineer, against all odds.

Even if you manage to do so, it will be a very lucky victory, not to mention, that we dont have a single corporation yet. I think you must finish the game here. Even lost, this game was very helpful and was fun. Let's move to the next one. Do you plan to run a pure corporation game, but without the spy limitations. I'd like to see one.

 

[madscientist]

You can still win the diplomatic victory. Currently Vicky+Abe will vote for you and you need only +(1-2) modifyers for Sal and Hammy to vote as well. Should be enough. The problem is how you will steal MM in time and how you will generate a great engineer, against all odds.

Even if you manage to do so, it will be a very lucky victory, not to mention, that we dont have a single corporation yet. I think you must finish the game here. Even lost, this game was very helpful and was fun. Let's move to the next one. Do you plan to run a pure corporation game, but without the spy limitations. I'd like to see one.

Sem, Let's say I can steal MM in time and I can get a GE to build the UN. That guarentee's me as a candidate, but who is the other? Right now it's Sal and he's getting stronger. If somehow I could go against Cyrus I think I could win, but we will see.

I will play it out until the UN is built, or we are dead (did I say Ragnar has been giving me death looks? Not the same adorable Viking scum we saw in teh Bismark game is he).

In light of this I do plan to play a corps heavy game. It would be hand in hand with another espionage game, but using Great Spies for infiltration. I will use another Phil leader, and not limit myself in empire size or diplomacy. But it will wait until the next two are played.

 

[semirami]

Wow! I just loaded the save. Saladin has 33% of the world population . Cyrus is not even close. Of course against Saladin you dont have a chance.

 

[absimiliard]

I had a late-game experience that was similar with an EE.

I quite enjoyed the early game, but the end-game had me constantly behind.

I found it unsatisfying.

I find myself thinking that maybe an early EE using an infiltrated spy is fine, but after that you should probably begin thinking of how to generate your own technology.

-abs

 

[madscientist]

Peter Spt Extraordinaire: THE END!

Well I played the game. Actually I did as well as can be expected, stealing quite a few techs, staying completely out of war as the world burned arround us, manually teched Mass Media (Yeah sue me for dropping the ep slider down for that tech), and built the UN rushing the last 10 turns with a GE>

First thing we got the following techs

Electricity (Steal)
Radio (Steal)
Steam Working (trade)
Railroad (Trade)
Combustion (Trade)
Refridgeration (Steal)
Artillery (Steal)
Mass Media (Teched)
Assembly Line (Steal)


Once we stole radio, I upped the science slider until we teched off MM.

Then we returned to stealing.

Seams like teh world dogpiled Cyrus, including ABe and Vicky leaving me alone with a revenge minded Ragnar. Edned lucky as Ragnar went after ABE. Vicky returned to Sal'svassal sealing our fate.


The object of our desire

And the grim truth finally revieled

The bitter results

We toss in teh towel. This is a loss plain and simple although we did soem amazing diplomacy to keep Mother Russia and her puny 5 cities alive the entire game. We had a ton of machine guns, anti-tanks, artillery, and obsolete units waiting for the Viking strike that never happened.

Thanks to all for following and your support and advice on this RPC which was quite difficult

Comments:

EE and RPC rules.

I think I have stated my views of the EE in the past posts. It is not a stronge approach as you are always playing from behind. Infiltration with some EP building/specialists/scotland yards is the best way to go, IMHO.

Why we lost:

Worried to much on diplomacy. We should have taken it to One of the three neighboring AIs early to expand and produce more commerce. The loss of Hammarabi to Sal as a Vassal was the killing blow, the rest were simply our deaththroughs!



Cyrus in Persians in Space will ne the next game. We will play a strict CE game on a continents map, cottaging everything not a resource or hill, and cottage the hills after Democracy. warfare limited to our own continent although we can defend ourselves. Monarch level and I want to see how fast we hit SPace, the stars or nothing!!! Anyone interested in shadowing that game with a SE, I would be very interested.

 

[A_Hamster]

Sorry for the loss, but thanks for the show. I see you've already decided on the next RPC, but I'd like to throw in my vote for this idea of yours.

Shaka a Man of culture. Culture win using slider, artists, corps, Great Artists; Cathedrals are forbidden. Shaka would need two other capitals for the three legondary cities.

Playing against type ought to be interesting, although I can see a lot of "washing of the spears" to get enough cities and resources to fuel the Culture victory.

 

[madscientist]

Sorry for the loss, but thanks for the show. I see you've already decided on the next RPC, but I'd like to throw in my vote for this idea of yours.



Playing against type ought to be interesting, although I can see a lot of "washing of the spears" to get enough cities and resources to fuel the Culture victory.

No problem with the show.

I have wanted to do a CE game since romping with Monty's SE game. I sort of got jipped in the Willem game, so I'll go ahead with Cyrus. Everyone wants bloodshed!!!

 

[CivCorpse]

Wow, we are sad. I am not sure why you never waged a full out war with ragnar. If you had pushed the war and taken his lands you could have had the production to build an army to take on cyrus. And he wouldn't have had 137 votes to cast for Saladin. EE's are out of my depth though

 

[madscientist]

Wow, we are sad. I am not sure why you never waged a full out war with ragnar. If you had pushed the war and taken his lands you could have had the production to build an army to take on cyrus. And he wouldn't have had 137 votes to cast for Saladin. EE's are out of my depth though

Sad indeed! The Viking wars were very difficult. We tried to take it to them, but remember we started with little land so our production potential was not close to Ragnars. We were heading towards claiming Viking lands, taking his capital but Hammarabi vassaling to saladin really hurt our chances. Abe could only help so much and Saladin was friendly with ragnar.

I think it was a well played game considering the diplomacy limitations set in the guidelines ( try to promote peace, therefore no early rushing). I think those guidelines were wrong for an EE game.

Like I said I will try another RPC focusing on Great Spy's and corps but from the infiltration, normal tech angle which I think is more powerful.

Now, onto the Persians.

 

[fjordan]

Too bad you couldn't make it. But I would not completely blame the EE for that. I think you put to much money on diplomacy and too less on military. Not an ideal combination IMO. I saw an example on this forum of an EE where the spare commerce was turned into gold. Use the gold for upgrading and continue to do so every time an AI makes a military breakthrough (which you steal).

Also I think you shoul focus more op spy specialist to take full advantage of a SY everewhere. Now you had a small bonus for both beakers and EP. Focus!

Another thing, I hope I saw this wrong, but it looks to me from the screenshots you paid the full EP price for stealing. You should really check out which is the cheapest city and wait for the -50% stationary discount. If so it would explain the limited succes because you basically spoil half your commerce. But maybe you used all those points for something else.

Anyway, I look forward to your next RPC because they are always very entertaining.

 

[madscientist]

Too bad you couldn't make it. But I would not completely blame the EE for that. I think you put to much money on diplomacy and too less on military. Not an ideal combination IMO. I saw an example on this forum of an EE where the spare commerce was turned into gold. Use the gold for upgrading and continue to do so every time an AI makes a military breakthrough (which you steal).

Also I think you shoul focus more op spy specialist to take full advantage of a SY everewhere. Now you had a small bonus for both beakers and EP. Focus!

Another thing, I hope I saw this wrong, but it looks to me from the screenshots you paid the full EP price for stealing. You should really check out which is the cheapest city and wait for the -50% stationary discount. If so it would explain the limited succes because you basically spoil half your commerce. But maybe you used all those points for something else.

Anyway, I look forward to your next RPC because they are always very entertaining.

You bring up some very valid points regarding cheapest cities and the discount, which I caught onto later. Producing spies were not cheap and I was limited in production of them (Limited in production of everything!!).

I'll have to consider all this as well as other EE games which will appear before I underatke the next RPC:EE game

 

[CivCorpse]

You bring up some very valid points regarding cheapest cities and the discount, which I caught onto later. Producing spies were not cheap and I was limited in production of them (Limited in production of everything!!).

I'll have to consider all this as well as other EE games which will appear before I underatke the next RPC:EE game

I'd love to see you undertake another EE game...LOL, so I can learn from your mistakes. May i be so bold as to reccommend that most bestestest of leaders Ms. Liz. Philo for extra great snoops. and set the slider at 10% espionage while running a CE, basically the extra commerce you get from being financial. That would put your tech rate equal with everyone else, while still getting the occasional tech from stealing. The disadvantage is pushing for great spies and losing the benefits of other great persons and that with just the great wall and a courthouse your GP farm is very limited and hard to focus on spies.

 

[pangu]

This RPC was so interesting to read! I have never tried out EE before and it inspired me to run a few games to test it out.

After thinking it over a bit, I chose Liz (phil/fin) because:

1/ Phil = more Great Spies
2/ Fin = more money so it can generate more spy points with cultural slider
3/ English UB = even more money to affect the slider
4/ English UU beats rifleman, so she stands a fair chance of winning a battle even if she is not ahead in tech midgame

I played continents map for all 3 games on Prince. My start in all the games involves first a worker and then chop a settler (which tries to claim stone or if none, lots of forest). Capital goes for Great Wall and 2nd city goes for Pyramid (but with a monument slipped in). I deliberately skip Stonehedge. That way, I always get 2 GS and 1 GE as my 1st 3 GP. I build national epic in capital and run as many spies in capital as I can in the entire game. I also build GL in capital and Pathelon in my 2nd city (the GE will rush 1 of them). In early game, I expanded like mad and left both my research slider and spy slider at 10-20% (it was in complete economic ruin). For both GS, I used for infiltration, 6000 spy points can grab me almost all techs I need. With representation from Pyramids and by running a spy at each city, together with GL and academy at capital, I can do a bit of research on my own even if research slider is at 0%.

The main problem I encounter is this: the AI seems to be worried when it sees tons of spy points on it and it reacts by going for more spy points itself, which affects its own research. So using the spy points normally generated per turn on just 1-2 AI seems to force them to slow down their research as well even if it was suppose to be a decent techer. This effect is more serious if I use the techs I stole to trade with other AIs. So, quite frequently, around mid-game, that AI will have almost no techs I can steal from and fall behind other AIs. A 2nd lesser problem is that by relying on stealing techs and not being Industrious, it is very hard to build any wonders after the 1st few as I almost always get techs later than AIs. I countered this somewhat by running engineers and using them to rush wonders.

I try to run rep + nat + merc + pac as civics. I try to get GW, Pyramids, GL, Pathelon, SoL in early to mid game. As I almost always go for domination victories, I prefer to research Assembly Lines (infantry + factory + very nice wonder) and Facism (free general + nice wonder) late game instead of Communism. By then, I have already discarded EE and go warmongering.

I now realise that GSpy is actually the best GP early to mid game. Before reading Madscientist's RPC, I normally just settle the GSpy for the beakers. It is amazing how I can keep up with techs without tech brokering even when my economy is in a total wreck with tons of undeveloped cities (6000 spy points is completely overpowered early game).

I wonder if this will work at higher levels though... Building the Pyramid at the 2nd city seems to be a close gamble.

 

[madscientist]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Yes I will play another Spy RPC game, but after a few different ones (at least Cyrus and Shake, probably one more).

Ideas I have gotten for the nest one

1) Liz. Yeah I think everyone is right here. HC is still my choice for best overall, but Liz is the lady for this game.
2) I like the idea of splitting wonder between City #1 and #2. GW in capital, Pyr in second IF possible.
3) Farm Great Spies in Capital like crazy.
4) Stealing techs need ot be done alot smarter than I did. I need to examine the cheapest cities for the mission AND allow the spy to sit in the city to reduce ep cost.
5) Tech fairly normally (nominal ep slider) while mixing bulbing and regular teching. The idea is to tech off in one direction while stealing techs in another.
6) The hell with diplomacy. Let the sword be our diplomat.
7) Pangea Map!

Another thing is to try and supplement a hammer economy into this, at least fo a few cities. These cities would be production monsters, and build research as needed. Just an idea.

Thanks for idea, keep them coming.