Rome

[Enginseer]

I mean taking UBs is literally the unique part of Rome. It's also only the UNWs that anyone has concern about. (And I guess defensive buildings now.)

The concern for those elements has not been universal either. Everyone agreed that NWs were too strong, but consensus is NOT reached on these issues.

Not taking any UBs sounds like a really boring change that's not needed.

Everyone agreed the NW stacking were strong(capturing multiple palaces oh boy totally not glitching the game or capturing multiple dutch east india companies from the same civ), but NW can't stack at all with the hotfix. You can't get two Smithsonians as Rome. You can only get 1. The only problem this issue was such a concern is only if you start playing with 3uc and 4uc (where suddenly you have multiple chances of obtaining an unw as rome). Which is that case then hardcoding your UNW into not being able to be captured by Rome (through IsDummy) is a better issue than having to nerf Rome. I don't see why Rome has to be nerfed because of a mod overuses unique national wonders.

 

[pineappledan]

The only problem this issue was such a concern is only if you start playing with 3uc and 4uc (where suddenly you have multiple chances of obtaining an unw as rome). Which is that case then hardcoding your UNW into not being able to be captured by Rome (through IsDummy) is a better issue than having to nerf Rome.

The other source of UNWs is custom civs, 4UC isn't the only villain here. I guess those can just use IsDummy too, but then you have a situation where Rome can capture some UNWs, but not others.

Could someone please disclose What IsDummy does, besides act as a second NeverCapture check? Genuinely need to know for future reference. Does it impart any other attribute to the building? Maybe we could rename it NeverEverCapture? Or maybe CapereNusquam?

I don't see why Rome has to be nerfed because of a mod overuses unique national wonders.

Ouch?

I don't understand how you can argue that stealing UNWs is only unbalanced if it happens often enough. Why isn't it unbalanced if it happens rarely? Hell, how is it not worse if it happens less consistently? Doesn't that just make it less of a balance concern, and more of a 'lolRandom' ass-pull?

 

[Gazebo]

I could add an additional bool for Rome that allows modders to turn off national wonder capture. Then 4uc would be happy as they could have everything as-is now, and CBO balance would remain as is.

Good enough?

G

 

[Enginseer]

The other source of UNWs is custom civs, 4UC isn't the only villain here. I guess those can just use IsDummy too, but then you have a situation where Rome can capture some UNWs, but not others.

What does IsDummy do, besides act as a second NeverCapture check? Does it impart any other attribute to the building? Maybe we could rename it NeverEverCapture?

I'm shocked you would say that.

IsDummy is how the UI checks if it's a dummy building. When you build a building, a certain policy/belief/random event won't suddenly trigger that you built a building and reward you the yields. It's not just a NeverEverCapture. It's what it literally says: a dummy building. It also won't be asked from random CS to build this building that is impossible to build.

 

[pineappledan]

IsDummy is how the UI checks if it's a dummy building. When you build a building, a certain policy/belief/random event won't suddenly trigger that you built a building and reward you the yields. It's not just a NeverEverCapture. It's what it literally says: a dummy building. It also won't be asked from random CS to build this building that is impossible to build.

Ahh, so if the dummy building was added via SQL, perhaps using the events system, if would make sure that no yields are triggered on construction from policies/buildings?

Do you still need the NumGreatWorks = '-1', so that the dummy building is hidden from the UI if you have IsDummy = '1'?

I've never used the event system to add/subtract buildings (opted for lua instead), so I've never had to consider yield triggers.

I could add an additional bool for Rome that allows modders to turn off national wonder capture. Then 4uc would be happy as they could have everything as-is now, and CBO balance would remain as is.

Super cool.

 

[ashendashin]

I don't understand how you can argue that stealing UNWs is only unbalanced if it happens often enough. Why isn't it unbalanced if it happens rarely? Hell, how is it not worse if it happens less consistently? Doesn't that just make it less of a balance concern, and more of a 'lolRandom' ass-pull?

A similar argument was made back when the Fountain of Youth had higher healing. Ultimately it depends on whether it's a recurring balance concern, and seeing how this is Rome, I think your observation on personal bias is accurate (though I see general warmonger bias more than a specific Rome bias).

 

[Enginseer]

Ahh, so if the dummy building was added via SQL, perhaps using the events system, if would make sure that no yields are triggered on construction from policies/buildings?

Do you still need the NumGreatWorks = '-1', so that the dummy building is hidden from the UI if you have IsDummy = '1'?

I've never used the event system to add/subtract buildings (opted for lua instead), so I've never had to consider yield triggers.

Super cool.

Or you build it.. which the IsDummy doesn't forbade you to...

 

[yogiebere]

Are you guys running Progress or Authority for Rome? I play on standard speed, standard size, pangaea plus.

 

[matlajs]

Are you guys running Progress or Authority for Rome? I play on standard speed, standard size, pangaea plus.

If you will be fighting mostly, take all the buildings possible and thus a lot less to build, for what do you want progress?

 

[ElliotS]

If you will be fighting mostly, take all the buildings possible and thus a lot less to build, for what do you want progress?

There are still going to be buildings left to build and your tech keeps unlocking new ones. Progress blunts your power out of the gate but grants some flexibility.

 

[matlajs]

There are still going to be buildings left to build and your tech keeps unlocking new ones. Progress blunts your power out of the gate but grants some flexibility.

Old Rome was one of the civs, which could really benefit from both of these full filled trees. Now i am not so sure, but the only way i would pick progress would only be in a case of total isolation.

 

[ElliotS]

Old Rome was one of the civs, which could really benefit from both of these full filled trees. Now i am not so sure, but the only way i would pick progress would only be in a case of total isolation.

To be clear that's not optimal play. There are plenty of cases that progress is better than authority for Rome.You're allowed to decide not to do it anymore all you want, but that doesn't affect balance because you're handicapping yourself.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I just recently finished a Deity Domination victory as Rome. I picked the Tradition opener (great for early Statue of Zeus/Legion/GodOfAllCreation rush to get an enemy capital that means you have two extremely strong cities early on and can build from there), Progress opener and first two Progress policies (+2p, then 2+g), then I took Authority opener and the science/15hp policy (just in time for my second offensive war), then I finished Progress, took three Statecraft policies for the much needed gold for upgrading my army until I filled the Imperialism tree.

Looking back, I would have still picked completing Progress over Authority, even though picking Authority would still make for a good game. The point is, Progress can also be great for a wide warmongering Rome, because you get a lot of culture from buildings in your many cities, all your cities will have extremely strong infrastructure and you get lots of happiness which is important when you're conquering.

 

[yogiebere]

Thanks for the insight. Yeah it seems do you want to buff your strengths (wide building production, early road connections) or buff your weakness in war (no obvious buffs to military other than the on-capture bonuses, legions, and free GGs).

Seems Rome is a strong civ at profiting from war but doesn't have many early game war bonuses (legions and colosseum come a bit into the game) so I went with Authority and it went well - I was able to conquer Ethiopia pretty quickly and set myself up well for a domination victory.

 

[Minh Le]

IMO Authority and Progress are equally effective with Rome. It depends on your start location and neighbor. When I have enough land to settle and chill neighbor, progress is indeed very strong. But when I start between Sweden and Denmark, Authority is obvious.

 

[chicorbeef]

The text for the Colosseum is awfully convoluted. I say we just remove the mostly insignificant "+2% bonus to City Connections" at this point.

 

[Bromar1]

The text for the Colosseum is awfully convoluted. I say we just remove the mostly insignificant "+2% bonus to City Connections" at this point.

Doesn't the bonus stack for each Colosseum? Like 5 city connections gives +10% gold. Seems like it could get pretty strong

 

[amateurgamer88]

I haven't keeping tabs of the details but does Rome still have the extra production to buildings built in the capital? I find their change where their captured cities retain all the buildings to be extremely powerful as it is and wonder if they still have this bonus still in their UA.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s been 5 months now; can we revert Rome’s nevercapture privileges yet? Did ya’ll have your fun with special borg Rome so we can move on and fix this?

England just got a new UNW which comes 4 techs earlier. Rome being able to capture the white tower is dumb and bad. I’m sorry. This just gets sillier with every new version.

If the issue really is that you just want to be able to capture monuments, then just set monuments capture chance to 0% and set nevercapture to 0. This mess with barracks/walls/unique NWs was never worth the headache and as time passes I become more convinced.

 

[chicorbeef]

It’s been 5 months now; can we revert Rome’s nevercapture privileges yet? Did ya’ll have your fun with special borg Rome so we can move on and fix this?

England just got a new UNW which comes 4 techs earlier. Rome being able to capture the white tower is dumb and bad. I’m sorry. This just gets sillier with every new version.

If the issue really is that you just want to be able to capture monuments, then just set monuments capture chance to 0% and set nevercapture to 0. This mess with barracks/walls/unique NWs was never worth the headache and as time passes I become more convinced.

I'd be fine with no UNW's now honestly, it doesn't make a difference in most games, but I still like capturing Barracks/Walls etc. it's fun.