Rome

[Funak]

Boring piles of stone??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumphal_arch

Poor arches...

G

I know how an arch looks, I was just trying to make a point They didn't really do anything, boring, static, pile

 

[Damirith]

So I guess we are visiting Rome again for a UA Change. In hopes that we can keep in the bonus production in other cities, I propose a tweak.

Maybe instead of the +20% lower it to like 15% so that its not as redic with the Liberty policies, keep in the +1 in all cities, but then add in golden age points every time you complete a building in Rome (the capital). You could have it start at like +3 and then increase it per era. This would go hand in hand with the Triumphal Arch and would make Rome all about getting golden ages and could focus on either going wide or tall.

BTW, the new pdf changelog doesn't list the altered UA that Rome has, it just mentions the Arch and Leigon buff.

 

[Elhoim]

I mostly find the flavor of the Rome UA lacking. I would even reduce it a bit, but add some extra abilities closer to the flavor of the civ:

- Spawn a tile with marble near Rome (Capital), and maybe a bonus for marble tiles. This would make the Capital city stronger, bringing a sinergy with the current UA, and fits the flavor (I found the city made of brick and left it made of marble).
- Make roads faster to create, and maybe with a movement bonus (All roads lead to Rome).

With those two and a slight reduction of the bonus can make the UA more interesting and fun to play.

 

[Damirith]

I was going to say faster production with roads but when you already have Legions making them, I think that might put too much of a focus on roads

 

[DrNooooo]

- Spawn a tile with marble near Rome (Capital), and maybe a bonus for marble tiles. This would make the Capital city stronger, bringing a sinergy with the current UA, and fits the flavor (I found the city made of brick and left it made of marble).

Well, there's already bonuses for Marble tiles (additional Wonder production + 2 Prod. from Stone Works) - having a guaranteed source of it in the Capital would be a useful ability on its own.

 

[Finarvi]

What if Rome roads were better? I think that roman roads were very good quality and could provide some bonus like to connected cities. That would have some synergy with Legions and with their quite expansionist UA.

 

[Funak]

Ok, back here we go. Now where were we?

I know how an arch looks, I was just trying to make a point They didn't really do anything, boring, static, pile

Right, I hate the Triumphal Arch. I want it replaced with a market-replacement, Forum all the way.

 

[Damirith]

Is there any Civ - Luxury bias in the game? I dont think marble needs to be better but if there were to be some focus on marble a bias for Rome could be interesting.

 

[Funak]

Is there any Civ - Luxury bias in the game? I dont think marble needs to be better but if there were to be some focus on marble a bias for Rome could be interesting.

Well, there's already bonuses for Marble tiles (additional Wonder production + 2 Prod. from Stone Works) - having a guaranteed source of it in the Capital would be a useful ability on its own.

I really don't like the idea of giving specific luxuries/resources and bonus to them to civs. Just feels like you're trying to hard to create some historic weirdness. I mean the roman empire didn't create marble, sure they used it but so did almost everyone else that had access to it, that's why it's a luxury resource.
This is the same reason why Morocco and Songhai doesn't get extra gold and salt and so on.
Same reason why the double oil on Arabia doesn't make any sense, I mean there is a lot of oil in the Mideast but that has nothing to do with the Arabian Caliphate.
In fact all this talking makes me just want to blast the existing Russian UA for the exact same reason.

 

[Damirith]

In fact all this talking makes me just want to blast the existing Russian UA for the exact same reason.

My exact thoughts as I was reading your response

And good point on the marble, it seems a lot of the CPP has moved away from getting specific tiles so why stick it back in for Rome. When I started my current game I was excited to see I had silver and gold, thinking I was going to go Religious Idols for my pantheon belief...but wait its not the same in CPP

 

[Dudushk]

I don't think that it is a good idea to link a specific luxury/resource to any civ.

I'd like to propose some ideas for Rome. I will put them here but someone better than me in calculating game effects could link all/some of them to in game effects.

Pax Romana: This was very important concept of the imperial Rome. We can think it as a sort of bonus in conquered cities. Or maybe less warmonger penalty? Halving happiness from conquered cities? Removing it from puppeted cities? I don't know if it's feasible.

Roads, Engineering: Removing maintenance cost for roads, or other bonuses linked to them is alawys a good idea. There are Roman roads that are still being used today. Same with acqueducts and many other roman buildings due to sophisticated ways in producing cements and concrete. So a generic reduction in building maintenance?

Roman Civil Law: This is one the most important features of the Roman legacy reflected in our use of latin terminology. In game terms it can translate in happiness from courthouses? Or maybe in bonuses relating to the Ius Gentium (loosely International law), and so to improved relations with City states or other Civs? Or no penalty with relations with leaders with different religion? The romans absorbed almost all the religions they encountered in their path (at least until Christianity became dominant in the late period).

Cursus Honorum: This was one an important aspects of Roman politics and society. We can translate in GP points in some ways? Or bonuses during Golden Age in generating GP? This would link to the triumphal arc.

All in all Rome was a very big empire, with a very long history, so chosing a different period from that of Augustus can give different ideas.

 

[Funak]

I don't think that it is a good idea to link a specific luxury/resource to any civ.

I'd like to propose some ideas for Rome. I will put them here but someone better than me in calculating game effects could link all/some of them to in game effects.

Pax Romana: This was very important concept of the imperial Rome. We can think it as a sort of bonus in conquered cities. Or maybe less warmonger penalty? Halving happiness from conquered cities? Removing it from puppeted cities? I don't know if it's feasible.

Roads, Engineering: Removing maintenance cost for roads, or other bonuses linked to them is alawys a good idea. There are Roman roads that are still being used today. Same with acqueducts and many other roman buildings due to sophisticated ways in producing cements and concrete. So a generic reduction in building maintenance?

Roman Civil Law: This is one the most important features of the Roman legacy reflected in our use of latin terminology. In game terms it can translate in happiness from courthouses? Or maybe in bonuses relating to the Ius Gentium (loosely International law), and so to improved relations with City states or other Civs? Or no penalty with relations with leaders with different religion? The romans absorbed almost all the religions they encountered in their path (at least until Christianity became dominant in the late period).

Cursus Honorum: This was one an important aspects of Roman politics and society. We can translate in GP points in some ways? Or bonuses during Golden Age in generating GP? This would link to the triumphal arc.

All in all Rome was a very big empire, with a very long history, so chosing a different period from that of Augustus can give different ideas.

I would really love to not turn Rome into another generic warmonger, I know they have a rich history of warfare and all your suggestions really does makes sense. But since Rome actually did a lot more other than just military conquest, we can choose to focus on one of the other aspects, which is exactly what Firaxxis did with the initial UA, which is focused on empirebuilding. In my opinion we should continue to focus on that aspect somehow, not replacing the existing UA but tweaking it a bit, adding something fun to it.


And of-course also replace the Triumphal Arch with the Forum, but that's a nobrainer

 

[Dudushk]

Yeah well. Warmongering was just one of my points.

 

[Funak]

Yeah well. Warmongering was just one of my points.

2 points actually

Both the first one and the one about bonuses to courthouses

 

[Finarvi]

[...]
Roads, Engineering: Removing maintenance cost for roads, or other bonuses linked to them is alawys a good idea. There are Roman roads that are still being used today. Same with acqueducts and many other roman buildings due to sophisticated ways in producing cements and concrete. So a generic reduction in building maintenance?
[...]

Yeah, I'd vote for something like that. But I wouldn't reduce maintenance costs, it sounds totaly boring. Rather some nice bonusses for city connections or for roads themselves, like bonus production in connected cities, bonus happiness, bonus speed...

In my opinion, road bonus AND existing UA (maybe slightly nerfed) would do Current bonus isn't very exciting but it's fitting and useful.

 

[Funak]

Yeah, I'd vote for something like that. But I wouldn't reduce maintenance costs, it sounds totaly boring. Rather some nice bonusses for city connections or for roads themselves, like bonus production in connected cities, bonus happiness, bonus speed...

In my opinion, road bonus AND existing UA (maybe slightly nerfed) would do Current bonus isn't very exciting but it's fitting and useful.

I don't like giving a bonus just for connecting your cities with roads, it just feels weird. Might aswell just give the bonus straight up as building roads is something you're going to do anyways. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't really an active choice.


Since I like the existing UA I'm going to try and keep it, but try to make it more fun by adding something to it.
First idea would be adding some bonus yield every time you finish a building, kinda like the liberty opener. Either a larger static bonus that gives you a stronger start or a lower bonus that scales with eras and stays somewhat relevant for the entire game. The yields could imho be any of them except production.

I guess you could have something that isn't a yield aswell, maybe give border-expansion every time you finish a building.

 

[Gazebo]

My concept:

Imperium Populi Romani: When Rome conquers a City for the first time, the City immediately claims additional owned and unowned territory. No Buildings or World Wonders are destroyed when Rome takes control of a City.

Essentially, Rome becomes the anti-Shoshone – instead of getting free hexes from settlement, they get free hexes from conquest (this can grant the city additional hexes that are owned by the player Rome is at war with).

Yes, this UA is heavily war-focused, but...so was Rome. Also, the latter element makes a lot of sense for Rome – Rome absorbed the cultures, architecture, and customs of every region they conquered.

G

 

[Funak]

My concept:


Essentially, Rome becomes the anti-Shoshone – instead of getting free hexes from settlement, they get free hexes from conquest (this can grant the city additional hexes that are owned by the player Rome is at war with).

Yes, this UA is heavily war-focused, but...so was Rome. Also, the latter element makes a lot of sense for Rome – Rome absorbed the cultures, architecture, and customs of every region they conquered.

Didn't Rome mostly build their own outposts/cities/whatever-they-called-them?
I don't disagree with the war-focus, but there are already a lot of war-focused civs, and currently Rome is one of the only real infrastructure focused civs.
Also, about that second part, would that mean Rome could steal other civs UBs? And what's that thing about world wonders? They are always kept, aren't they?

 

[Gazebo]

Didn't Rome mostly build their own outposts/cities/whatever-they-called-them?
I don't disagree with the war-focus, but there are already a lot of war-focused civs, and currently Rome is one of the only real infrastructure focused civs.
Also, about that second part, would that mean Rome could steal other civs UBs? And what's that thing about world wonders? They are always kept, aren't they?

I meant for it to say National Wonders, though the DLL may frown on me with that one (still, keeping all buildings is pretty sweet as-is, national wonders excluded). They'd keep everything they could, absorbing whatever they conquer in its entirety plus an additional chunk of land (because that's what Rome did).

Rome's historical legacy is its military prowess combined with its expansive blood-soaked empire. They built outposts in Gaul/Britannia/Iberia, to be sure, but most of the lands they conquered in Greece, Anatolia, Egypt, Levant, etc. were already occupied. In terms of infrastructure, Rome itself was impressive, as were Roman roads, but they were far from the first to build roads extensively, and they borrowed most of their architectural design elements (most of their culture, really) from Greece.
G

 

[Funak]

I meant for it to say National Wonders, though the DLL may frown on me with that one (still, keeping all buildings is pretty sweet as-is, national wonders excluded). They'd keep everything they could, absorbing whatever they conquer in its entirety plus an additional chunk of land (because that's what Rome did).

Stealing national wonders would be crazy overpowered. I mean just stealing a guild or two would be insane.

Rome's historical legacy is its military prowess combined with its expansive blood-soaked empire. They built outposts in Gaul/Britannia/Iberia, to be sure, but most of the lands they conquered in Greece, Anatolia, Egypt, Levant, etc. were already occupied. In terms of infrastructure, Rome itself was impressive, as were Roman roads, but they were far from the first to build roads extensively, and they borrowed most of their architectural design elements (most of their culture, really) from Greece.

I didn't mean infrastructure as roads, I meant their existing UA.
But you're not interested in keeping that one at all? If landgrab is the thing, let the roman cities grab land when they build buildings, that would synergize with the existing UA.