RR12 - A perfect spy

[r_rolo1]

After some minimal MM, I clicked enter ... and we took a serious happy hit:

Spoiler :

Took my time and some spies to revolt 3 of the offenders to slavery again in this turn, and the other one ( Korea ) in the next one

Too bad that the AP vote to give cities will only work between civs that are in peace IIRC ... as the options were not of my taste, I chose none.

Spoiler :

Anyway, progress was being done in the revolt front:

Spoiler :

The Aztec cap also revolted some turns later.

Darius made a demand that I refused.... not in the mood to please someone that we will piss off with so many spies fails ( unavoidable ... Firaxis made quite a mess in the espionage departement and one of the biggest one is the fact that spies capture diplo demerit has no upper cap ... ). But the real issue is in the backround:

Spoiler :

Notice the red spy sign in the city that is building Eifell ? And the heavy food loss ? Yup, someone ( read, Korea ), poisoned the wells in there. I've been juggling the tiles between that city and the surronding ones to avoid pop loss. Next player still has to take care of that since the effect is still there.

Quite unexpectedly, we got some good news:

Spoiler :

To be honest, i would had prefered Timbuktu, but a city that brings some EP stuff for free is nothing to sneeze. BTW the loss of this city make Monty to break out of Mansa and both avaliable to cap to us...

Some of you may have noticed the tech path I followed ... artillery ->combustion after radio. The reason for that was to unlock some arties and to go to flight ( to get planes )->rocketry ( I want nukes and gunships ) . Anyway, we got a broadcast tower in all of our cities ....

Spoiler :

As you can see in the backround Rock and roll is queued just behind.

We got another GP ...

Spoiler :

Quite surprisingly a GSpy ... still to be used. Quite out of ideas on how to use it effectively...

Our first capital is down, 5 more to go ...

Spoiler :

I was also not expecting this one ( Timbuktu has more pressure and is still holding ), but this means a huge advance against monty since it puts both his remaining cities in reach of our armies ...it should not take long to erase him.

Our last turn in this turnset was quite busy ... first, the end of Combustion. I slotted flight after this.

Spoiler :

I have let the developments in Korea and Persia out of the report so far ... well, besides no one of our 4 neighbours have got back to Emancipation, we continued to act against the easterners:

Spoiler :

The missions to the Korean cap have been expensive in EP due to the high culture in there, but we finally opened a path to the Korean cap to attack it as soon as we have enough culture to have a chance for revolt. All but the most eastern of the Korean cities has culture of ours now.

The situation in Persia is a little bit diferent since we only can attack the versailles city, but we already have quite a revolt risk there Notice that the persians have infantry as well ...

Just for kicks, the peace deals Mansa and Monty are willing to do with us at this moment:

Spoiler :

Ok, not only for kicks, especially in Monty's case. We can clean his units of his cap, acept the deal that reduces him to OCC, and get back to the war 10 turns later. In fact, maybe we could do the same with Mansa after getting some more war sucess and nab 2 or even 3 cities. As time is our enemy in here, we should consider this ...

Finally, EP and tech screens:

Spoiler :

The EP weighting is like this because the Korean cap culture spreads are taking more than 1000 EP each ( the city is almost legendary ). In fact I even shutdown the EP to everyone else for 2 or 3 turns in the set and it is possible that we need to do that again ... anyway, I've been spending EP like a madman, as you probably noticed if you seen nocho's save.

The tech screen ... well, to be honest ,I missed that the americans had fission ... and for some reason, are teching Ecology . We probably will have issues with him in the future if he goes space. That is why I want nukes ... as long as we have sushi, mining and EP buildings we can get our win, even if the world goes to ashes and desert.

Some issues to solve in the next set:

- first, I have made zero corp spread. Our builds in this set were ,spies, spies, more spies, infantry, artileries, Eifell and R&R.

- second, we should start working on Thracian. We will only reach culturally the city in the next turn, but we have already some spies en route ( 2 or 3 ).

- There is a major need for worker action in the areas we gained terrain in the previous 2 turns. We got access to 3 new cities ( the 2 Aztec ones and Walata ) and rails + forts need to be done in the areas in question, besides some changes of improvements.

- We need to get more up-to-date units, especially to the east. BTW, the units need to be reshuffled to the new fronts as soon as avaliable. Some units of the Timbuktu stack could go to Walata...

Roster:

r_rolo1 -just played
Thy_Spellcraft -UP
Brian Shanahan - MIA
lymond - on deck
Thrar - MIA
LKendter
nocho

>>Save here<<​

 

[r_rolo1]

Updated the report ...

So much to do, so little time To be honest, I think we might need to go nuclear on the world to drag them to Mad Max area, especially the ones that are further away ( that american dude needs some action to distract him of getting to the SS ), but for now is business as usual.

In fact, monty is on the ropes and maybe we could even shutdown the EP on him soon. Mansa is only holding due to sheer luck, but as soon as Timbuktu falls, they will be in a really critical position. Wang is a complete paper tiger and will be little more than a speedbump. The Persians ... well, we need more work due to the geography, but we are making good progress ... and shaka is a sorry excuse of a civ ,as usual when he can't force vassal 3 or 4 civs around him. that leaves the Americans ...

 

[LKendter]

Kumbi gives us RICE - that helps our Sushi corp. Plus right now every flip helps.

Yes, Monty should hopefully go soon.

 

[r_rolo1]

The Kumbi rice was already in our hands, so we actually only gained the city tile. The flip of the Aztec cap was far more dramatic in the effects

Anyway, I'm still to the fact that Timbuktu is still holding. The moment it falls , Mali becomes a hollow shell and we can redirect efforts.

BTW, what do you htink on my idea of peacing Monty nabbing a city after clearing his units ? We don't have culture enough to even have a revolt in any of the cities IIRC, so that would win us some time...

 

[LKendter]

BTW, what do you think on my idea of peacing Monty nabbing a city after clearing his units ? We don't have culture enough to even have a revolt in any of the cities IIRC, so that would win us some time...

I can't recall the exact way you worded the variant rules.
To me, this goes against the spirit of cultural capture all cities.

I also want Mansa's capitol to flip. Two wonders that give bonus to our Christian buildings.

 

[r_rolo1]

Quoting myself in post #1

- No vassals
- Domination and Culture wins disabled
- Win by conquest
- Our troops can't leave our territory ( except to cover for settlers )

In fact I recall saying somewhere in the beggining of the thread ( or was in RR11 while discussing the next game ? ) that any method to get cities that didn't involved getting our units in foreign lands was kosher ... otherwise we also can't use the AP for assigning cities. I can live without getting that peace deal OFC, but I'm pretty sure it will be faster than waiting for us to spread enough culture in the non-cap city and wait until it revolts to our side .

 

[LKendter]

I must be mixing this one up with RB29, or the LK series one I did this way.

Go ahead and peace with Monty to get one city. Don't have much choice, since IIRC he has two cities.

 

[nocho]

Good news on the flips! I'm fine with getting some cities in the peace deals, must agree that it would speed things up and of course will mean we'll have to spend less EPs, besides freeing up some spies for going to work elsewhere.

Irrelevant fun-fact: Monty is actually more advanced than Mansa.

We could use the GSpy for another GA, unless we want to save the GAr for bombing somewhere quickly eastwards later.

Great we have Eiffel. I'd like to see Redentor built soon as well, just in case we need to swap civics later.

Shouldn't we try to spread Christianity like crazy in all enemy cities to make our EP spending a lot cheaper, beginning with Seoul? The shrine income wouldn't hurt either.

Question: are all those spies needed in Timbuktu? The missions are very expensive and I'm not sure whether the revolt chances would increase a lot if we get only a slightly higher cultural percentage there.

 

[r_rolo1]

I agree, we don't need as much spies there I was being a little overcautious in there

Indeed, we should spread christianity. Like I said, in my set I only cared, besides some minimal infra and the wonders, in spies and some military ... I think that the spy buildup can be toned down a little ( that, unless we want to spread in more cities ), so maybe it is time for some execs and missionaries ( btw, i forgot to tell I stole 800 g from monty in 2 steal treasury missions ... IMHO was a nice investement ).

P.S Yup, Monty is more advanced than Mansa .... Mansa is running 80-100% culture for quite a while, while Monty is still teching, so it is not a big surprise. To be honest I'm more surprised with Lincoln tech path. That is serious even for AI standarts.

 

[JujuLautre]

Lurker's comment: Shouldn't you, like, shut down completely espionage on Mansa and Monty ? I mean, the two of them cannot do anything any more against you anyway (esp Monty). The biggest threat is that someone will go to space, see Lincoln, which is a good reason why you should focus on to getting to him asap

 

[r_rolo1]

Monty is ok to shutdown, especially if we peaceout with him fast, but Mansa is another cup of tea, since we still have a city that has 0 culture of ours in there , Thracian.

I share your concerns about Lincoln. I'm not optimistic about being able to open the path to him as fast as desirable ( in spite of the good results against the Persians so far ), so we might need to get a war with him to drag him down , maybe even go nuclear ...

Anyway, we have much closer concerns to solve. Monty is still alive, mansa is holding by whatever divine force grace and we still have much to do in Korea ...

 

[JujuLautre]

Monty is ok to shutdown, especially if we peaceout with him fast, but Mansa is another cup of tea, since we still have a city that has 0 culture of ours in there , Thracian.

I understand that, but is he a threat anymore ?
I know that Time victory is not disabled and that yes, you will have to take that city in the end; but I'd say this can wait till you have 80% of the world for you. And this means taking the Korea/Persia front fast, and first.

 

[nocho]

I'd agree with shutting off EP spending on Monty and Mansa for now. I'd first empty the pretty filled EP-buckets on them nearly completely and if then we see we still need more EPs redirect again to them. With 11.6 kEP against Mansa I assume we have about enough, especially if we get a city for free in a temporary peace deal. Thracian (I suppose) has nowhere near the culture Timbuktu has, so we may not need that many EPs anymore, relatively speaking.

 

[UncleJJ]

Re-Lurking

That is looking a lot better with Christianity and OR. Spread the religion to every city while you have peace and reap the rewards. Not only do you get -40% on mission costs but also 3 gold per turn - that's a good investment anyway you look at it


From here on I'd say it is more about the rate at which you generate EPs than anything else. So I would work on the economy to increase the rate they are generated. Flight is nice to have, but is it urgent? Can't you wait for it to be researched with Rep beakers and divert the 40% Research slider into EPs where you have better multiplers?

I did a few adjustments to the sliders and found out that for your current commerce and multipliers :

1 = 1.50 = 0.94

Reducing the slider to zero, research fell from 1005 to 660 and Flight would now take 12 turns instead of 8. Raising the EP slider by 40% increased from 1808 to 2360 , a massive increase I'd certainly recommend that unless you really do need Flight earlier.

Then looking at your costs I see that you're paying 128 gold Unit upkeep and 33 for Unit support. You have a lot of obsolete units and 91 spies and you're building more spies in 10 cities It seems to me that you have more than enough spies to perform the missions at the moment and you need more EPs instead. Also spies don't need to wait in enemy territory and pay support costs as well as upkeep. Every 2 spies in an enemy city costs 1 gold per turn. Inflation is running at 79% so every 1 gold saved from costs is worth 1.79 gold and that translates into 2.6 EPs eventually.

So I deleted a few older units and replaced them with oromos and rifles where necessary and changed to building wealth in all the cities currently building spies. There could have been better things than wealth (infrastructure, missionaries or executives but not more units or spies) but I kept it simple just to get a feel for the extent of savings. I also moved a few spies back where there were far too many in one city. (e.g. Walata had 14 spies waiting, some at 30% and others newly arrived)

These cost savings and building wealth meant the EP slider could be raised to 70%.

I also adjusted a few specialists in cities where they were running engineers or priests instead of spies. The net effect was :

Beakers 679, EPs 2909 and gold +30.

I think a set up like that will win the game faster for you since EPs are the limiting resource and not the number of spies. Perhaps you need some rule of thumb linking the number of spies to your EP generation rate. I'm not exactly sure what that is but given the cost of some missions it is probably closer to 50 EPs per turn per spy than the 20 you have at present. I'd say 60 spies and 3000 EPs per turn would be a fair balance to aim for at this stage. Replace spies that are lost and then increase the number as the rate of EP generation climbs due to capturing cities and building more infrastructure.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, let's awnser

@ JujuLautre

I think you ( and nocho ) are being excessively optimistic about the EP still needed for Mansa, even if he doesn't build more Sec Bureaus ( that have to be sabotaged ASAP ). We only have 3 cities of Mali with a significant presence of our culture: Timbuktu, Walata and Gao. The first one is the only that has a revolt risk above 0 ATM , while the last one still has less than 50% of our culture. The other 3 ... well Thracian has exactly 0 culture of ours ATM ( we will reach it in the next IBT ) and the other 2 have a residual presence ( 1-2% )

In other words , we still have much to do in Mali. It probably does not deserve being the #1 in focus , but it still needs some hefty EP to finish the job ( probably something around 15000 or more )

@ nocho

Mansa ATM will not part of any city besides Walata. Anyway, I'm not in favour of even thinking on peacing him before Timbuktu falls. The rest of your post is covered by the response to Jujulautre

@ UncleJJ

I have mixed feelings about getting the science slider down. True, our modifiers are much better in the EP area, but there are some things that we want to get : gunships, nukes and tanks. And as you can imagine, I'm quite torn in taking the slider down before getting those ... but again , Rep specs are doing 2/3 of our beakers, so getting it down would not hurt as much as that

Not sure if the bottleneck is the EP. Atleast for the moment, even with our 91 active spies . It will probably be in the future, though ...

I know that we could ( and should ) spread the christian faith around the map ( well, the Persians already done it for us in their land, so for now we need 4-5 missionaries ). As you might have noticed, my last set was focused in building up the number of spies ( and getting some more 20 would not be a bad idea ), so that the next players could focus in those more regular aspects of the game, like spreading corps and religions.

What i don't understand is your critique of spies waiting in foreign lands. Ok, they cost in maintenance, but 5 turns of waiting = 50% discount in the mission. Ok, for cities with little culture, it might not be better to wait, but for most of the cities, we are talking of 60+ EP ( being conservative in here ) per turn saved, and I'm not seeing how saved maintenace can even get close of this, even with EP modifiers in between .

I've been trying to delete my older units attacking the enemy troops, but they have failed to die joking, but we actually don't need some of the old units we have.

Anyway, your suggestions are well received.

So, for the game ,and as soon as thy shows up, we could probably do what uncleJJ sugested and drop the science slider to the 0% while raising the EP one. I'm not sold on going wealth everywhere ( we need more spies and corp execs and missionaries and units, and buildings and airports and ... ), but probably going wealth in some would probably be for the best. Anyway, we need to update our military, since we have only a handful of modern units ... and a destroyer to the south, especially before we go bonkers on Persia and Korea

Techwise ... I'm for either Flight or Industrialism. No strong preference , but flight has airports and planes ( that can spread havoc without technically leaving home ).

Oh, and MM the priests out ... god, I'm really unfocused in MM when I need to move many units around

 

[JujuLautre]

@ JujuLautre

[...]

In other words , we still have much to do in Mali. It probably does not deserve being the #1 in focus , but it still needs some hefty EP to finish the job ( probably something around 15000 or more )

I will not be pretentious enough that I can judge how much EP you need on Mali: you have a much better experience than me to judge that
I'm just saying that you could turn the espionage to 0 on Mali and Aztecs for a while and concentrate on Persia/Korea instead. You can still come back on the former later after all.
Or do you think that a stop, even if temporary, in your actions against Mali/Aztecs be bad to overtake them in the future ?

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that it's much easier in this kind of game (from my little experience) to fight against thin stripes of culture than against big walls. Mansa and Monty are just that, remaining stripes. The four others, on the other hand...

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

To not slowing down the game further I got it! Will take a deeper look at the save this evening and give some ideas!

 

[Thrar]

If that's ok with the team, one of the lurkers could take my spot. Anyone interested?

 

[nocho]

If that's ok with the team, one of the lurkers could take my spot. Anyone interested?

I'd be okay with that for sure.

 

[LKendter]

Not sure if it is worth it at this point, but do we want to spread Hinduism? Teno has the shrine, and 16 cities already have this religion. Add M,G,B and it ups to 32 a turn before spreading.
Teno has 2 settled generals, some point soon it should go on military duty.