RR12 - A perfect spy

[r_rolo1]

To get the culture a way faster towards NY we should think about whether to spread culture without waiting bonus or not. I think spreading culture to Pusan is not that expensive at the moment so we could save 4 turns per spy..

The issue with what you are saying is that, regardless of the missions being expensive or not, the culture spread mission will always spread 5% of the total plot culture of the city tile. The reason why the missions in Pusan are cheap is because it is the latest of Wang cities and has relatively less plot culture than the others ...

That, paradoxically, plays against us in here ... because we want to get enough culture in there for our cultural radius around the city reaches New York, that will need the same culture count regardless of how cheap/expensive the missions are ( and ,as a consequence, will need the same EP ( well, not exactly , but the last thing I want here is to calculate limits of sums of sucession terms ) ). So in the end is a matter of trading 5 turns of wait for 50% discount and I'm not sure that it pays up

About Mounty: even though we do have lots of EPs left on him I think we could leave him be and wait until RNG god gifts us this city.. Mounty won't be able to get the revolting chance down to zero so it's only a matter of time. We should rather use those spys for someone else!

Agreed. Monty will be lucky to build another unit before another revolt

And about peace with Mansa: In case Timbuktu falls will gao be the new capital? In that case I too would vote for taking peace. Otherwise we should keep on warring him until at least Walata falls into our hands!

I am betting that ATM the cap in case of the fall of Timbuktu would be Thracian, but I'm not particularly sure of it.

Anyway, we can obviously go the other way and continue to kill units until mansa is willing to give something more ( Thracian would be nice, since it has little culture of ours, but that also makes it a city more dificult to get via peace deal ) ... The issue is that it takes time and time is not a luxury we have

Anyway, I urge the next players to push the bar to get cities, Demand them if possible, use the AP, , whatever. Besides the cities we need to spread more culture to get further in the terrain ( say Pusan or Pasargadae ), every city we get without a revolt and , even better, without onerous EP spending, is a major plus.

 

[LKendter]

We also need to get Sushi into every border town. Put Djenne on executives now, not the wasteful spy.

The faster we can touch more AI cities, the more effective the war options become - especially Wang. I would really like to be able to hit two or three of Wang's cities at once during war.

 

[lymond]

We also need to get Sushi into every border town. Put Djenne on executives now, not the wasteful spy.

^^^totally agree and I've been harping on that point for several TS's now

I'm in the mode right now so I should have a plan up in a bit. I have 2 TS at present in different games.

 

[nocho]

In fact , the thing I'm more insecure about my latest post is really the part of peacing mansa for Gao and AP snag of Seoul. It is not a bad idea, if I am entitled to say it, but it might have long term consequences

You're entitled! I think you may even say it's a good idea. Well, at least I like the idea.

I can't really think of negative long term consequences. I think the long term consequences are pretty good this way, tbh.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

We also need to get Sushi into every border town. Put Djenne on executives now, not the wasteful spy.

The faster we can touch more AI cities, the more effective the war options become - especially Wang. I would really like to be able to hit two or three of Wang's cities at once during war.

You're right.. But there are two or three executives left unused as I didn't see any border city still needing sushi. But in that case it seems I overlooked some cities..

 

[LKendter]

I didn't check the all the cities, so it may not be an issue. It was a general level concern. Any city close to bordering an AI city needs it.

No matter what Djenne needs to be building shield heavy items...

 

[lymond]

Ok, a bit of a plan here:

1) Any thoughts on grabbing Mass Media and the UN. I think we would win leadership even though no one would vote for us. I think some AIs would simply abstain. Otherwise, I'll just keep heading towards nukes.

2) I'd like to trade Med to Link for MT and all his gold. MT is inconsequential but might as well take it and all his gold. First though, I will beg 1 gold as it looks like we will soon declare on Wang. Regardless, we could use that gold.

3) I will spread Sushi to the 2 western Mali border cities to start more of a push on Thracian and one in Aksum to facilitate more corp spread. When I go corps I go all out.

4) Keep pressure on Tim. We can take a casual approach to Monty's final city. I'll keep sending a couple of spies over there.

5) If Tim falls during the TS, I'll assess the peace situation with Mansa. I suspect he will still only give up Walata.

6) I think we should get a few more spies mission on Seoul before declaring. Plus, i want to put a fort on that hill first. One concern is Wang bribing Darius into war. Although I could demand some gold from the Persia. It would be nice if Shaka declares on Persia or Link in the next few turns.

7) Not sure why we are sitting on 2 Gspies. We have some cities that you use SYs and be on par or better than some of the current SY cities. Kaskase and Qohaito are good candidates. Another option is to settle them and any others in Aksum for the combined beaker/EP boost. Regardless, it is pointless to just sit on them. Running missions with them is a waste now since we can produce as much as a mission now in 1 or 2 turns.

8) I'm going to put a city on corp spread...maybe Aksum.

So, I guess the big question is do I start the War with Wang in the next few turns.

 

[r_rolo1]

1) mass media = obsolete AP = no more easy grabs . Not sure if it is worth it.

2) yup, grab gold

3) Ok with sushi spreads. if you get Gao , spread there as well

4 & 5 ) Have you read the last page of discussion ? Mansa will part every city except Thracian and his cap In fact I'm still waiting to see what it the final input on my plan of grabbing gao via peace deal and Seoul via AP

On the last points. I don't think we need a city in full corp spread and spendind atleast one of those GSpies on SY is ok by my book. On warring Korea ... not before we can attack 2 or more cities , a thing that will not happen for a while if we grab his cap via AP

On the other points

 

[lymond]

You are probably right on MM. Let someone else build the UN - it has no culture itself and we will likely win the UN vote regardless.

What would you do with the other Gspy? I think we should use these guys immediately on SYs or settling in Aksum. Gspy mission holds little value at this stage. Just sitting on them is a complete waste - that is a lot of EPs lost over time.

I think we should spread our corps. I could do what I normally do and do chain execs - unless a city just doesn't have much in the way of production.

 

[r_rolo1]

My point on the other GSpy would be in case we are close of making a GA. I have not checked if that was the case . If we aren't, make the 2 SY.

The issue with corps is solely due to competition in the queues. If you find a space to make them and money to spread it, I'm ok with it. BTW if possible , steal the AI money, it is a quite cheap EP mission that is a huge bonus for us .

 

[lymond]

Good idea on the gold stealing.

We have a Great Artists and Great Prophet, so we can use the next odd GP on a Golden Age. I can put emphasis on GPs in Yeha or wherever, but Gspies are too valuable I think in this game to waste on a GA.

I will likely play tomorrow unless I'm surprisingly sober after the fireworks - highly unlikely.

 

[r_rolo1]

Oh, I forgot ... 4 of July Good holiday for you then

 

[lymond]

ha...thanks! Go America! home of cheeseburgers and Lindsay Lohan...pffft!

edit: OK...play now!!! sorry for the delay

 

[lymond]

Alrighty then:

We may a bit of progress here

Highlights/Summary:

1) Aztec cap revolts on 1st turn:

Spoiler :

Our cultural pressure on his cap just continues on and on, so if you can destroy a civ via culture, I think we certainly can flip his last city. I send a few spies to his city and run a couple of missions. He has nothing left.

2) TIMBUKTU FALLS FINALLY!!! On the 2nd turn:

Spoiler :

As you can see, it immediately opened up a nice little Ethiopian path straight to Gao, so I immediately sent our well placed stack to Gao to lower defenses. Our culture continued to expand in the area as I ran missions in Gao. Plus, I put Sushi in Tim immediately.

3) About 4 turns in the AP vote came up to assign Seoul to us. However, Wang not surprisingly defied the vote. Of course, we had plenty of votes on our own to win if note vetoed by Wang. So I don't think this is much of an option, unless Wang's vote is swayed based on how much culture we have in Seoul. Basically, him just giving up. Notice he is building a Security Bureau. That's because I destroyed it. However, he seems close to finishing it again so we may want to take it out. I destroyed a couple other Security Bureaus here and there and destroy the Buddhist Stupa and
Theatre in Seoul.

Spoiler :

4) After a 2 or 3 culture missions on Thracian, a culture path opened to the city so I've wiped out the army there and in Gao. Of course, we could take peace and Gao from Mansa, but I don't see the point in it. He has no army to speak of and I'm sure these cities will just flip eventually. If we make peace, despite the culture, he will build units in them again which lowers the odds of a revolt. RIght now they are pretty high.

5) Tarsus - key city right now - built two religious wonders and I just spread Hindu there so we can build the Hindu shrine. Let's not forget to build temples here and there when possible in cities so we open up these buildings in later border towns.

6) Continue hitting Darius' border town. Lot's a spies in the city but many had to wait for the 50% discount. We may want to start a mass stack in Persepolis now and destroy his bureau there.

7) Pusan can get absolutely spy rocked next turn. I have a lot of spies that will hit 50% there next turn. Plus, for some reason the missions here are amazing cheap and have not gone up. We're talking less that 10 EPs. This is a key city for us since it opens the way to America. However we do have a little path of culture to america, so we may want to send in a large spy stack to New York to begin the work.

8) Overall, I had a lot of successful missions, but also a lot of attrition via failed missions and spies getting caught each turn. Wang has been pretty tough on our spies despite no bureaus and running 50% missions. I lost a lot of spies at high odds. Just luck I guess.

9) Sushi is getting nicely spread around. A few more cities to go and then we also want some in reserve to spread to flipped towns. I have Aksum alternating on spies and execs. Mining has been spread a bit as well - mainly to heavier hammer cities.

10) Cristo completed, but I'm not sure if we want to switch in civics. Only thing I can think of is Free Religion, but OR really helps with getting up culture/EP buildings fast. We might eventually switch to US and Emancipation and just rush buy if needed, although happiness was not much of a concern this round. Free Market is still always on option. We are doing so well on EP now - 3200+ epts - that the lowered maintenance from FM may be a boon. I thought about trying it since we can switch civics each turn now, but thought I'd wait for the team.

11) Made the Med trade with Link for 1000+ gold and made 2 or 3 trades with Shaka that gave him old techs for around 200 gold each -he's still way behind.

12) Finished Flight in a turn or 2 and then went Rocketry>Fission. Fission will finish in 2 turns. I assumed we were heading to nukes. Definitely want to build SDI as well if we are going that route.

 

[LKendter]

Nice to seem Timbuktu finally flipped.

I think we are to the point we can fight Mansa and Wang at the same point. Our challenge is culture in more then once city of Wang to make it worthwhile.

Got it - suspect another marathon that will take awhile.

 

[lymond]

LK - Note that I have started the culture bleed process in Wang's other cities and more spies are sitting in those cities poking around. Pusan will get absolutely pummeled next turn.

Note on spies, in case no one knows this, I didn't until recently:

It bothers me when you group your spies and then use the mission button, that it doesn't automatically choose the spies at highest discount. Kinda like when it uses every catapult but the ones with accuracy when bombarding a city. Anyway, if you hover the cursor over a spy in the stack of spies in a city you can see the discount for each. I then hold the shift key and create a new group of 50% spies and use them to run the missions. Not sure if that will help anyone, but it does save me some time, especially when you have a huge stack of spies.

 

[nocho]

Great news about Timbuktu! Though it was about time.

It bothers me when you group your spies and then use the mission button, that it doesn't automatically choose the spies at highest discount. Kinda like when it uses every catapult but the ones with accuracy when bombarding a city. Anyway, if you hover the cursor over a spy in the stack of spies in a city you can see the discount for each. I then hold the shift key and create a new group of 50% spies and use them to run the missions. Not sure if that will help anyone, but it does save me some time, especially when you have a huge stack of spies.

Yeah, it's convenient to group spies as they arrive, so each group has the same stationary bonus. At least that makes it a bit less tedious.

 

[r_rolo1]

Yup, the spy grouping is defective at least ... they even have not bothered to sort spies by discount ( like regular units are sorted by promos ), a thing that IMHO is obvious ...

Good to see Timbuktu finally in our greedy hands ... and too bad on the AP defy. Anyway I'll say more after seeing the save

 

[LKendter]

Well the defy still screwed Wang
All his cities have -5 happy for being a "villian".

 

[r_rolo1]

True, but i couldn't care less about Wang happiness I care about his cities in my hands :/