RR15 - Mills for D. Quixote

[IdiotsOpposite]

Personally, I'd like to get rid of China now. Once we do that, we can focus on slaughtering Tokugawa without having to worry about China sneaking up on us from the south. A horse-archer rush would be nice for that. Remember that we need to kill Toku before he gets too powerful as well, though.

 

[lymond]

We are way too scared of 1.5 city China. Once we get a chariot out we will be fine. Beeline HAs and we are ready to take on Toku and China. Toku aint gonna get powerful very fast.

This is only Monarch

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

We are way too scared of 1.5 city China. Once we get a chariot out we will be fine. Beeline HAs and we are ready to take on Toku and China. Toku aint gonna get powerful very fast.

This is only Monarch

Ya gotta watch out for the small ones! You know, like Zanzibar.

 

[lymond]

^^^cool list

 

[timmy827]

Seems like the forum was down for a day and a half, so I'm going to hold off playing about 24hrs in case people missed chance to comment during that. My opinion is if we do a HA rush, definitely hit Toku 1st as Qin can't ever be a threat.

I'm still unclear on next tech preference, only lymond has given some answer there. If we do a HA rush it makes sense to pickup pottery first, build granaries while researching HBR for whipping efficiency.

lymond, looked it over, agree on settler now, but I will swap to library in 2t, 2whip that then finish the setter. Think library 1st gets us a little more benefit for settling the city a few turns later. Qin right now has 35 or 36 hammers in the box (source), I'll monitor its progress and whip the settler instead if there is any threat of losing the city.

EDIT: does it make sense to focus EP on Huayna if we plan on killing Toku?

 

[lymond]

Whip settler into library for max OF and it should finish or very close to finish the Library (that's the way to use your trait production bonus). Also, we definitely don't want to lose clam/horse/ivory spot. Throw in a chop for good measure.

I'd rather get straight on to HBR if we go that route. We can follow with POT and whip Grans in as needed, but HBR first gets us building stables and horse units right off.

I definitely agree with EP focus on Capac

Qin vs. Toku we might have to get a feel for as we progress. Simply if Qin looks like he's gearing to bust out then it might be best to take him out quick rather than getting hit first. PLus it means a good second cap spot for production in the war on Toku, which will be much tougher any way you cut it.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, I've given a "look" to the area around QSH cap. ( I rebooted the 4000 AD and later saves as well for extra retrograde info ). QSH cap has definitely no land south of it ... more , given the forest that it had in 4000 AD + the way it got to work some 2C tiles later ( most likely seafood or lake when it got fishing ... atleast I assume it is. there are a lot of variables still to be known, like the 3 civs we have still not contacted ) it is highly likely it has 2+ seafood and a metal in one of those hills. That is a better city that the best one we have for our variant More, the city is not on a hill

That said, I'm 100% in favour of cleaning QSH out. The incans in the game spell bad news for us, especially since they most likely have access to more land than we can peacefully ... we definitely need to get enough good land to keep ourselves in the game until we can do decent improvements to non-resource land. QSH is definitely the best option to get some

P.S What happened to the forums yesterday ? :/

 

[LKendter]

While Qin isn't as much of a threat, I prefer to knock him out first. We know he has a good city. Plus the last thing I want is a boxed in Qin attacking us during the war with Toku.

 

[nocho]

I'm also okay with a rush. Kinda agree with lymond that if we want to do that with HAs we can't really delay HBR much, if only because we likely need a bit more time than usual to get a decent stack assembled.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

I'm going to express my agreement with Rolo, Kendter, and Nocho, in that we should rush on Qin. It shouldn't even be that hard, given that he might as well be running a one-city-challenge right now, and has no way to expand.

 

[timmy827]

Qin built a galley 1st because there is an island:

Thus there was no threat of losing the clam/ivory/horse which was settled. Note that Qin just finished a settler now which is presumably going to settle it.

In the absence of other strong opinions on pottery vs. HBR, I overrode lymond and did Pottery first. Without mines, and not having Mathpowered chops, I really think whipping will be essential to churning out HAs in good numbers so want granaries in our 2 high food cities.

I think we could use a 3rd worker, for chopping more than the limited number of tile improvements we can build. But I didn't realize that until the end of the set, should have been doing that in the capital earlier instead of a barracks. Sorry for the there.

Recommend granary next in Gondar, and in captial after worker. Assume Lalibela doesn't have enough food to whip and will just work cows + plans forests so it can skip granary, ditto Addis Ababa (without fishing I assume we stagnate it on pasture + camp). Add scientists as happiness allows, either from ivory hookup or slave clocks running out.

Note on trade routes: we need the road the worker is finishing to Addis Ababa, I was scratching my head before realizing that the Aksum isn't actually on the river (looked like the city bar was just covering up a connecting river length there). Suggest the other worker roads the rice he's on after farm done, think that will give us a trade route to China.

Worst news: our exploration in the west went nowhere. First our woody was dropkicked back to us by Toku's border pop as soon as I hit Enter:

Then our 2nd I tried to move ahead met his end by this barb archer:

Rotating warriors now, recommend leaving the spawnbuster in place and waiting a few turns to try that passage again (with the woodsman).

By adding up Toku's EP, I can tell he has met one other AI we haven't. Qin has not so his island likely does not hold another civ.

EDIT:
Want to challenge the consensus on hitting Qin first. I like r_rolos line of thinking on getting good cities but there's a big hole - the "no fishing for Machinery bulb". Without Fishing, both of Toku's visible cities are better than Qin's capital under these rules. So are we still sticking to the no fishing bulb plan?
Of course, we don't have to commit a target for our HAs for at least two sets.

 

[nocho]

Looks good, tim.

Regarding rolo's big hole, of course you don't need fishing to use existing fishing nets (right?). So it's a pretty food rich city until barb galleys destroy them. But that'll take a good while. Enough time to whip a truckload of extra HAs for Toku.

 

[lymond]

Regarding rolo's big hole....

wait, wha?....


I don't think you can work any water tiles without fishing, but that is fine with me. The city does have corn at least. ( I think we do get the health bennies from the seafood though....well, at least until barb galleys come.)

 

[timmy827]

I don't think you can work any water tiles without fishing

Right. (As opposed to say a dye plantation wihtout Calendar, there you do not get the from dye but can get the 2F6C from the tile. I don't think we will get the health until Fishing by the same logic as the Calendar, also see Children of the Gods).

I had some health problems and couldn't figure out why. Then in 725 BC, I realized that I had to pick up Agriculture - otherwise the farms do not supply the resources.

However it's the yields that really matter, seems unlikely for us to run into health issues early on here.


Roster:
r_rolo1 -UP
nocho - on deck
lymond
LKendter
IdiotsOpposite
timmy827 - just played

 

[nocho]

 

[r_rolo1]

GOT IT

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, sorry for the mid absence, but RL + some forum stuff have delayed me :/ ( that and a quite drawn E1000 AD game with China where I ended being AP crusaded while taking Sal out ... fun, fun :/ )

So on actual game plans :

- We are getting out of things to build ... or we will in 2/3 sets. Someone suggested to go alpha ... to be honest, , besides our cap , we will be with hands full building stuff for quite a while ( barracks, granaries, libs and stables ) and as soon as we have a decent bout of libs to hire sci specs, the time for getting Construction on will be significantly reduced. Our cap is another issue, though .... anyway, we can make some axes/ spears to make some company to the phants/cats. Other consideration to have about this is ...

- Our next GS will get out in maybe 2 sets ( I surely intend to hire a sci spec in cap as soon as the whip anger subsides there ... and even with one spec hired, it is 31 turns for it ). Nowadays it would bulb Maths ( a thing that we obviously do not want to bulb ).... to be honest we will need to have alpha as well to bulb the machinery path ( we also need IW and Masonry for the machinery bulb in itself, but alpha is mandatory even if we only want to bulb MC ). We definitely need to put our bulbing and teching strat in order ... Can someone run some numbers on that ? I have the gut feeling that the best way of going is Alpha-> HBR ( not in a particular hurry to get HAs , are we? We might even put this after Maths ) -> Maths -> bulb MC -> Construction -> IW -> Masonry -> ( maybe Currency+ partly CoL in here? Probably not even time for full Currency, especially if we can put 2 sci specs in another city besides our cap , like in Gondar ...) -> bulb Machinery with GS #2 ...

- On war: I was looking at the game and I was wondering if taking toku down is not the best way to go after all . QSH is safely constricted down there ( even if he settles the other island he will be rotting in vines ) and we can't work the best tiles out of his cap until we have bulbed Machinery ,a flagrant contrast with Toku known cities ( he even settled his city #2 where we wanted it ). There is the downside of that making HC to have more avaliable land, but that is a minor thing ...

-Do we want to settle any other city before war ? I do not think so, but it makes me nervous to see nothing stopping toku of making crap jungle cities against us...

Anyway, on more ground base issues:

- We need more workers I plan to make one in cap , then letting it grow to size 5 and hire another spec there, then whip something at size 6. That or whip a granary as soon as we hit size 5 ... That would impact our GS GPP , though :/ The other cities are probably too hard pressed in schedule to get more workers out, but besides roading and linking phants, copper and horses, I think we have our bases covered with 3.

- Gondar will probably need to be whipped before the wexistant whip anger subsides unless we hire a sci spec. Will do so.

- The rest ... it depends of our tech path ( putting research in between makes things very diferent ... ). Labileia is somewhat problematic, since it has prod , but no food ( somewhat the same as Adis Adeba ) and I'm not sure if it is worth the trouble to run sci specs there or even to build libs

I would definitely like to have a straight head on tech paths before we move on . Can you give your thoughts , pls ?

 

[lymond]

HAs is all we need for some time. We can trade for IW and Masonry later when we need it. We don't need construction. We can trade HBR to Capac for Alpha. I think we need Aesths too though. HBR should be the beeline now though.

Yep, Lali is strictly production. We only need 2 libraries - cap and cow/rice.

It might be best to hit Toku earlier with HAs.

 

[timmy827]

+1 on lymond's points. Also think we are done settling cities. It will be annoying if Toku plops more in the jungle but it is not worth it to settle a junk city ourselves to prevent it.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, already played ... up to getting HBR and getting horsies ( 1200 BC ). Not much happened, besides the Oracle done in 1400 BC IIRC.

Our military resources are linked up and our cities have no whip anger:

Spoiler :

Most of those queues are placeholders to not enter in overbuild-induced strikes, so please review them. The MM also needs some tune up, especially in Gondar ( I hired 2 sci there for a while to not grow into unhappiness and to speed our research a little. currently we have 1 there )

I also queued Alpha after HBR. i think this is not discussable since we need it for the MC bulb anyway ( BTW our next GS is scheduled for our cap in 10 turns , most likely more because of the whip that is coming there soon. If we get the GS before we have Alpha please keep him in ice )

Anyway, the next turnset will be surely for:

- Whip stables and start making HA

- Get alpha

- Get GS and bulb MC, I assume

Nocho is UP, lymond is on deck.

Save here​

P.S Sorry for the delay in all of this. First , I completely forgot that I was up , then, as some of you might have noticed, I got a case of green CFC alias