Ruff03 - AW Middle Ages

Alright, got my turns in...

I'm going to apologize in advance for the possible poor play and lack of a turnlog...

However, I will describe what happened in general:

Basically, we kept pouring knights out, with the exception of a work boat to explore the coast, and an explorer that I think might be of value. We probably could take Russia at this point, but I'm not sure if that is where we want to go.

I'll break it down for you by the lands I was in:

The Russian Lands:

I simply took out some cats and whatnot here, nothing special.

The Roman Lands:



Our one knight there, which had pillaged the iron, pillaged that winery. It got a little further in, but was stopped by a few macemen and a catapult. However, another knight is on it's way and that previous one definetly did more than its worth.

The German Lands:



Could not get a knight down here sadly, I had two on route, but they were stopped by a hoard of units.

The Japenese Lands:



I saved the best for last...

Here I have been able to get some knights through effectivly. I see them as our biggest threat right now as they have iron and horses as far as we know. However, I did manage to pillage one of their horses and the knight there is healing from it's battle wounds.



I would suggest discussing the possible death of the Russians, and the further invasion of the Japanese.

Sorry if I did too poorly, as I said before, warring, is not my thing, hence trying SG's...
 
Roster
Ruff - up
Conroe - on deck
colony
Munterpipe
Woobi - just played

... and got it.
 
Woobi said:
We probably could take Russia at this point, but I'm not sure if that is where we want to go.
I think Peter will be tough. He built his two cities on hills. A Longbowman, fortified, in a city, on a hill, will be a tough nut to crack. I'm not sure I'd want to attempt it with just Knights.

Woobi said:
RE: The Japanese
I see them as our biggest threat right now as they have iron and horses as far as we know. However, I did manage to pillage one of their horses
If I understand you correctly, Japan still has access to iron and one source for horses? If that is the case, I would agree then with your assessment. Are they the only AI with any strategic resources?

Woobi said:
Sorry if I did too poorly, as I said before, warring, is not my thing, hence trying SG's...
It looks to me like you did alright. :thumbsup: You put the pressure on the AI and opened up some more of the map. That is what we are trying to do at the moment.
 
Well, this is turning out to be a difficult game - I played a difficult 10 rounds that seemed really unproductive and fair bit defensive. There was an option that set every civ at war with all the others (not just the human) and I was thinking of checking that one. I suggest that we try that variant next game.

I got sick of losing single units deep in other people's territory. I certainly see the value in pillaging their iron and horses but it costs us lots of rounds to get units there. I really think that our units need to travel in packs so that, when they are attacked, it takes more than 2 attack to a unit. As such, I have two knights down south scouting. I also have a stack of knights and other units near Moscow - with three unpromoted macemen on the way.

I had to spend some time this round building settlers. Why …

Notice the german boat too. It took out one of our fishing boats.

We certainly don't want a city in our back yard. I have another settler with support almost at the last site …


Finally, Japan did sent a stack our way - I took it down without losing a unit and only 1 lucky attack (pike winning @ 35%).


We need to watch our promotions - it is no good having city attack promotions on units that defend in the country. It is no good having city defense on similar units. Units that are going to be defending (or attacking) in the country should get suitable promotions (woodsman, + v melee, + v arrows, etc).

(sorry about the lack of logger - it is just not working for me - I think I need to reinstall CIV4).
 
Roster
Ruff - done
Conroe - up ... are you out there?
colony - on deck
Munterpipe
Woobi
 
Situation Assessment: We've explored about 2/3rds of the map at this point. We need to complete mapping of the Roman, German, and Incan lands. We also need to find the Malinese lands. From the culture map. it appears that they may be located SE of Inca. Overall, not too bad.

A quick look at the demographics screen shows that we are not doing too well. We are ranked 4th out of 7 in soldiers. Next, let's pull up the power graph and check out our competition.






Mansa Musa is leading the pack! And, not too far behind is Bizmark. In other words, two civs with iron hooked up. We have got to get that iron disconnected ASAP! I also notice that we are not gaurding the iron that has already been disconnected. So, some of the other civs may have hooked it back up while we weren't looking.



Unfortunately, we've only got seven Knights. Of those, three are wounded and need 3-4 turns to heal. One of them is stuck in our backyard on barb duty and is too far away to be useful. However, two of them are within striking distance of German iron.

Another concern is our treasury. We have 321 gold, but we are spending it at -7gpt with both the research and culture sliders turned off. In other words, we have negative GNP. We will go broke in 45 turns. At that point, our army will start being disbanded.

Objectives: Build us some Knights -- well, a lot of Knights. Do some pillaging and make sure that every AI has some company so that they don't feel lonely!

Turn 0 - 1600AD: I crack the :whipped: on the Catapult construction taking place at Bangalore and Jute. It costs 1 pop each for the two cities.

I MM the cities that are at max happiness to stagnate growth. This reduces our net expenses to -4gpt. We now have 80 turns until bankruptcy.

IBT: Peter suicides a Catapult onto our stack gaurding his iron. This is also the stack containing the 3 wounded Knights.

Turn 1 - 1605AD: Delhi completes a Maceman and starts a Knight. Bombay completes a Jewish Missionary and starts a Knight. Madras completes a Maceman and starts a Knight. Jute completes a Catapult and starts a Barracks. Bangalore completes a Catapult and starts a Caravel for coastal defense.

Tokugawa has left an Explorer out in the open. Our 2 Knights in Germany can't resist the temptation, especially since it is on the way to the iron. Unfortunately, that Explorer put a whoopin' on our Knight.



Turn 2 - 1610AD: Our Settler has arrived at the site for the new city. I really don't think we can afford a new city at the moment. I decide to just sleep the Settler for the time being.

Then, I notice that we have 2 small stacks approaching our territory by two different civs. We are lucky that they are such small stacks.



We have 68% odds to take on Bizmark's Maceman gaurding the iron. I really don't like the odds, but I don't see that we have a choice. Fortunately, we win the fight without a scratch. Bizmark loses an iron source. Does he have another one?

IBT: Bizmark attacks our Knights sitting on his iron mine. He loses his Maceman, but puts a hurt on our healthy Knight. He will probably attack with a Crossbowman next turn.

Turn 3 - 1615AD: Delhi completes a Knight and starts training another one.

Meanwhile, Tokugawa has a Knight and another Catapult coming to the party. I'm going to be forced to pull some of our Macemen back for defense of Bombay. I expect major pillaging to occur.

IBT: No attacks?

Turn 4 - 1620AD: Our ivory is now hooked up. I MM Delhi and Madras to grow again. Bombay is no longer rioting.

Tokugawa is bringing another Maceman and a Crossbowman, now. That I can see, we have 3 Macemen, 3 Catapults, a Crossbowman, and a Knight descending on Bombay.

I spoke too soon. Bizmark has a 7 unit SOD approaching from the south. It has 2 more Macemen, 2 Crossbowmen, 2 Pikemen, and a Catapult. Honestly, folks, I don't see how Bombay is going to hold.



And looky here, Caesar has 2 Macemen and a Catapult of his own approaching the party.



I use our wounded Pikeman to attack Tokugawa's Combat III Knight. We are victorious. Next, one of our Knights kills the Catapult the Knight was escorting. Meanwhile, another of our Knights locates another Crossbowman that Bizmark has approaching Bombay. We are clearly on the defensive now.
 
I stopped after playing 4 turns. As you can see from the pictures above, we have a bunch of troops heading our way by 3 different civs. And to make matters worse, the power leader, Mansa Musa, isn't one of the civs.

Things are definitely looking bleak. I thought I would pause here and solicite input from the team. Before I complete my turns, we really do need to formulate a game plan that we can all execute going forward.


EDIT: Well, I was really hoping to get some feadback. I've spent some time staring at the screen trying to figure out a way to win this one. And frankly, I'm coming up dry.

The instances where I have successfully won an Always War game are where I was able to suppress the AI early on. When I'm able to get a couple of fast units to every AI civ quickly enough to (1) prevent them from hooking up metals/horses and (2) stunt their expansion. With the exception of Peter, that is something that has not happened in this game.



This is what the known world looks like today. We have 2 Knights on sentry duty in Germany. They will make sure that Bizmark does not hook his iron back up. We have NO troops keeping an eye on the Roman and Incan iron sources. The Roman source has definitely been hooked back up, and probably the Incan, as well.

We have not located the Japanese iron source and we have no clue what Mali even looks like. On top of that, all of the civs, with the exception of Peter, have fully expanded.

But, we have 10 troops keeping an eye on the Russian iron source. Since every unit coming out of Bombay will pass that iron source, we actually do not need these troops on sentry duty in Russia.


The Proposed Plan

The plan that I am proposing is fraught with risk. In fact, I don't even believe that it will work. If anyone has a better idea, please post it. Because, frankly, I am out of ideas on how to win this one.

(1) Rather than continueing to pull our troops back to defend Bombay, I plan on advancing on the AI. Bombay has a couple of Longbowmen, a Maceman, and 3 Catapults on the way. It will stand or fall with what it has. We have a second source of horses, in case the horses at Bombay get pillaged.​

(2) Have our big 3 cities continue to produce nothing but Knights. Delhi, Bombay, and Madras are all good Knight training centers. They can be built in 2 to 4 turns.​

(3) Make sure that every civ has at least 2 Knights gaurding every AI iron source. It would be nice to gaurd the horse and copper resources, too, but the priority is getting the iron disconnected. And, it must stay disconnected.​

This, of course, is what I have been proposing all along. It may not be possible, though, if the AI have already built too many iron units.​

(4) Once every AI resource is disconnected and being gaurded, we will need to work on infrastructure. We are in bad need of Courthouses. We also need Forges, Markets, and Grocers.​

(5) In about 40 or 50 turns, we are out of money. We do not have the ability to build cottages so there is nothing that we can do about it. In that timeframe, we must have every AI under our thumb and be in a position to raze a city or two for the cash bonus. But yet, we will have to do it while building infrastructure rather than troops.​

(6) Once our infrastructure is in place, we start turning out City Raider Macemen and Catapults and start razing cities! Our army will be paid for using the plunder from the cities.​

There are, of course, several big problems with this plan. If Bombay falls, it is most likely game over time. As we do not have defensive troops in our other cities.

I'm also not sure that our money will hold out long enough to execute the plan. That is one of the reasons that I did not build that new city. It will be all jungle, with only 1 forest within the city radius. It will have no access to fresh water, so it cannot be farmed. Thus, no workshops. In other words, it will forever be a 3 hammer city draining our treasury.

The biggest problem, though, is we don't know how many iron-based troops that the AI have built. Is Tokugawa throwing everything he has at us or does he have a reserve in place? And, we know absolutely nothing about Mali.
 
You have hit the nail on the head. I was starting to feel the same way during my turns. Can we survive - yes if we go pure defensive, I think the MOD is set up so that taking a properly defended city is difficult. Can we win this way - NO. I think your suggestion is the only WIN option. The problem that I was finding was that it takes 10-15 turns to get to japan and it seems fairly easy for him to kill our knights.

Anyone got any other comments?

Any feedback on the mod? I was thinking that we wouldn't run into any money issues (no research) and hence the removal of the cottages. Maybe this wasn't such a hot idea. The other AW option is AW for everyone (AIs included) - under that option it is eveyone against everyone else, not everyone v human.
 
ruff_hi said:
You have hit the nail on the head. I was starting to feel the same way during my turns. Can we survive - yes if we go pure defensive, I think the MOD is set up so that taking a properly defended city is difficult. Can we win this way - NO. I think your suggestion is the only WIN option.
So which way do we want to go then? Should I press forward? Or should we wait for more feedback from the rest of the team?

ruff_hi said:
The problem that I was finding was that it takes 10-15 turns to get to japan and it seems fairly easy for him to kill our knights.
Part of the problem is our map. We are on one end of the map away from everyone else. It just takes time to get troops over to them. The flip side to that is it allows us to have our Workers running around our backyard, relatively safely, without any escorts.

Either way, whether it takes 15 turns or 30 turns, we must have troops in the AI's territory to keep the pressure on them. Since Knights are the fastest units that we have, I suggested using them. And, if we keep cranking them out, the AI will eventually lose all of their iron units through attrition. But, as you point out, we will need to constantly send reinforcements as we will also be losing units through attrition.

ruff_hi said:
Any feedback on the mod? I was thinking that we wouldn't run into any money issues (no research) and hence the removal of the cottages. Maybe this wasn't such a hot idea.
I am kind of surprised at how much of an impact removing the cottages has been. I would not have expected this when we were discussing the mod. Definitely need to put them back into the game.

ruff_hi said:
The other AW option is AW for everyone (AIs included) - under that option it is eveyone against everyone else, not everyone v human.
I'm not familiar with this option. Is it something new that they added in the 1.61 patch? It sounds like it would be akin to dropping the difficulty level by two notches. As a side note, notice the Roman city of Cologne in the screenshot. Rome and Germany have obviously been at war at some point.

Woobi said:
Is it possible to take one Russian city as a buffer???
Not a bad idea. Unfortunately, we really cannot afford the maintenance of another city right now. Plus, the bad guys are between Russia and Bombay, at the moment. We will need to clean out this wave, before we can take any Russian cities. And, that assumes that they won't be sending in another wave for enough turns for us to get our troops in place.
 
Ok - guess you should push on with sending out knights. Sounds like we need to split our builds between knights and economy related buildings. I would say that $-rush is a big no-no until we are +$ per turn.
 
We have really made ourselves a challenge here.
I vote for playing to the end, even if it looks grim.
It seems like we can't afford to lose units at all, as we will soon be outnumbered. Single units in enemy lands, simply won't survive long.
I propose:
Concentrate on defending Bombay with a lot of maces, pikes and bows. It's on a hill and will stand agains all but a major SOD.
When we have the oppertunity, create our own tactical SOD, consisting of city-raider maces, knights and cats, assigned to moving around the map and razing cities, one by one, thus financing our millitary and weakening the AI.
IMHO guarding all enemy resources is hopeless, and too costly as the situation is right now. Let the AI have their Iron and Horses, and let US choose where to fight.
I don't know if this will work, but it is a suggestion we should consider at least.
 
Turn 4 (Continued) - 1620AD: I pop rush the Caravel build at Bangalore. As Ruff_Hi noted, cash rushing is defintely not allowed at this point.

IBT: We lose a Knight to a Pikeman. Before dying our Knight inflicts considerable damage to the pike. Next, Peter suicides a Catapult into one of our Macemen. Our wounded Maceman is then taken out by one of Peter's Longbowmen.

Turn 5 - 1625AD: Bombay completes a Knight and starts another one. Madras also completes a Knight and starts another one.

Bangalore completes the :whipped: Caravel and starts a Courthouse. Jute completes a Barracks and starts a Courthouse. I'm not sure that the Courthouses are the best idea at the moment. But, neither city has enough hammers to be effective troop training grounds, and we are hemorrhaging cash. They will both take 15 turns to complete.

First order of business is to take out Peter's wounded Longbowmen.

I stumble upon more troops heading towards Bombay. Caesar is sending another Maceman, Crossbowman, and a Catapult. Peter has 3 Catapults heading out of St Petersburg. Not too far behind are some Incan troops: 2 Macemen, a Crossbowman, and a Catapult. In total, we have 26 troops from 5 different civs descending upon Bombay.

IBT: Peter loses a Longbowman attacking our Maceman. That Maceman then kills an attacking Roman Crossbowman, but is then killed by a Roman Catapult.

Then, the Battle of Bombay begins. Our newest Knight dies at the hands of a Japanese Maceman.

Meanwhile, our forces (our SOD) in Russia succumb to Bizmark's SOD. His suicide Catapult withdrawls from combat. But, 2 of our Knights kill 2 of Bizmark's Macemen. Then both our City Garrisson Longbowman and City Garrisson Crossbowman are killed by Bizmark's Crossbowmen. Our Medic Pikeman is then killed by another of Bizmark's Crossbowmen. We then lose a wounded Knight to a Roman Catapult. The other wounded Knight is finished off by one of Peter's Catapults.

Finally, Peter lands a Settler and Longbowman in our backyard near the site of our unbuilt city.

Turn 6 - 1630AD: What a slaughter that was! I know it was my plan, but it isn't looking too good at the moment. Delhi completes a Knight and starts on a 1-turn Maceman. Calcutta completes a Barracks and starts an 8-turn Longbowman.

Meanwhile, our Knight in Japan sends back a disturbing report. Japan has 2 Knights on the move. But, Mansa Musa has a 7-unit SOD as well.
IBT: Our Knight in Japanese territory is attacked, and kills a Japanese Pikeman, before being killed by a Japanese Longbowman. So much for finding Tokugawa's iron! :sad:

Meanwhile, our Caravel is attacked by 2 Malinese Caravels. We sink one of them before being sunk ourselves.

Peter founds Rostov in our backyard. But the worse news is the Incan navy.



Turn 7 - 1635AD: Rostov is razed. We pillaged only 1 gold coin from the city's vaults. I was hoping for more. :undecide: Our attacking Knight, now wounded, heads south in anticipation of an Incan landing.

I was planning on pillaging the Incan iron, but since Bizmark has 2 Pikeman ... well ... Instead, I send the Knight away from the Pikeman and find a Japanese Pikeman. :sad: The Incan iron mine is hooked up, BTW.



Here is a shot of the 23 units descending on Bombay. We have 10 defenders. Of course, this is what we can currently "see" -- there are more troops under the fog of war.



Our Knight (in the picture above) attacks Bizmark's Maceman directly south. Even though he had 80% odds, he dies. The Maceman is finished off by our other Knight who then retreats to the wheat fields to the east.

IBT: The Knight going after the Incan iron is slaughtered by a Japanese Pikeman. Meanwhile, back in Bombay, our Maceman kills a Roman Catapult; while the Japanese pillage our pig pasture.

At the former barb city of Jute, the Incan forces are landed. We have a City Garrisson II Longbowman and a wounded (5.5/10) Knight to defend.

Turn 8 - 1640AD: Delhi trains a Maceman before resuming Knight training. I'm not sure how effective the Knights are going to be, considering that they cannot even get out of our territory without being whacked ... but I've got to try.

In Bombay, I give a Catapult a Barrage promotion and suicide him against the nearest stack. I then send one of our Macemen up against a wounded Crossbowman. Our Mace barely survives.

IBT: Huayna Capac pillages our rice farm outside of Jute.

Turn 9 - 1645AD: Bombay completes a Knight. With the number of enemy troops in our territory, Knight build time is up to 5 turns. I settle on a 4-turn Crossbowman, instead.

At Bombay, Tokugawa loses a Maceman and a Crossbowman, both previously wounded, to our Knights.

IBT: One of our two Knights keeping an eye on the German iron is whacked by a passing Roman Pikeman. Meanwhile, the 2 Incan units attack Jute. Our Longbowman kills them both.

Turn 10 - 1650AD: Delhi trains a Knight and starts another one. This newly trained Knight is pressed into service attacking a Maceman outside of Bombay. He has over 70% odds, but he dies anyway. :shake:

After having played 10 turns, I can safely say that this game is lost. The plan that I proposed is just not going to work. There are way too many units descending on Bombay. We cannot get our Knights out of our territory without them being slaughtered. Let alone try and pillage any AI resources. The AI have built too many iron units at this point for us to be effective.

I will leave you with an updated screenshot of the action outside of Bombay.

 
I would really like to see the attack on bombay. If the AI cooperates well enough, they will take it easily, but if the stacks attack on separate turns, Bombay will hold for a while I think. Medic promotions are of course essential.
 
Munterpipe said:
We have really made ourselves a challenge here.
I vote for playing to the end, even if it looks grim.
It seems like we can't afford to lose units at all, as we will soon be outnumbered. Single units in enemy lands, simply won't survive long.
I propose:
Concentrate on defending Bombay with a lot of maces, pikes and bows. It's on a hill and will stand agains all but a major SOD.
When we have the oppertunity, create our own tactical SOD, consisting of city-raider maces, knights and cats, assigned to moving around the map and razing cities, one by one, thus financing our millitary and weakening the AI.
IMHO guarding all enemy resources is hopeless, and too costly as the situation is right now. Let the AI have their Iron and Horses, and let US choose where to fight.
I don't know if this will work, but it is a suggestion we should consider at least.
I'm willing to consider it. As I noted in my report, that plan that I proposed is not going to work. It is possible that creating our own SOD and just going after the cities just might work.

What type of troop composition did you have in mind? Do you propose 1 super-SOD or a couple of SOD's working together?

Woobi's suggestion of keeping a Russian city as a buffer should also be considered in conjunction with this plan. Moscow would have the better production potential, but St Petersburg is built on a hill.

We may want to switch civics to Theocracy. We will get another 2xp for our new units. Then, those that survive anyway, will only be 2xp short of a 3rd promotion.
 
I see a slight hope in Bombay holding. If it does, we could slip in something to bother the AI between blows.
First of all, the SOD has got to be able to defend itself from attack, therefore some pikes, crossbows and longbows. To be of any use, it needs cats, cityraider maces and knights to do some damage to the AI. (did I just mention all available units;))
The problem with this strategy is that I don't see how we can weaken the AI in the long term. They will never advance technologically, but will build A LOT of units. In an AW game, I consider the AI as one opponent. Razing all the russian cities will only let the other civs grab the free land for expansion. Wich means no prgress at all.
Therefore I agree with Woobi on keeping one of the Russian cities, but only when we can manage to hold it. Since there is no time limit on this game, I think we would do best to progress slowly and safely taking one city at a time.

I'm sure I won't speak so optimistically when I see the save though;)
 
BTW, I think you did a good job on the turns, both Ruff and Conroe:)
This sure isn't as easy as it seemed in the beginning
 
Munterpipe said:
The problem with this strategy is that I don't see how we can weaken the AI in the long term. They will never advance technologically, but will build A LOT of units.
The AI will feel the same cash flow problems that we feel. Because of the limited amount of commerce in the game, there is a limit to the number of units and cities that a civ can maintain. A civ that chooses to build more cities does so at the expense of more troops.

This could work to our advantage. :hmm:

Munterpipe said:
Razing all the russian cities will only let the other civs grab the free land for expansion. Wich means no prgress at all.
There is absolutely no way we can keep the cities. For the same reason as above. We must raze them. Actually, it would be interesting to see what the AI will do in this situation. If it knows that it cannot afford another city, will it still try to settle one?

Munterpipe said:
First of all, the SOD has got to be able to defend itself from attack, therefore some pikes, crossbows and longbows. To be of any use, it needs cats, cityraider maces and knights to do some damage to the AI. (did I just mention all available units;))
Personally, I think the SOD is going to have to fight its way out of our territory. It will need about 2-3 each of mace, crossbow, and longbow just for stack defense. That is on top of the CR maces, Knights, and cats.

Munterpipe said:
I'm sure I won't speak so optimistically when I see the save though;)
Did some fool forget to post a save? :blush: Check again, it is there now.
 
Got it.

I think that 3-4 stacks would work better than one giant stack, large enough to take cities, but that'll take a while to build up.

So our main objectives for now are to defend Bombay, if possible try to raze a city or two and to try and keep the gold coming in.

I'll probably play this this evening
 
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