Ruleset Discussion

@Whomp - I agree it should be banned - that's why I brought it up.

@donsig - I would say there are no "unusual circumstances" when it is OK. That way we have a hard and fast rule with no wiggle room. You cannot run a deficit greater than your cash reserves even for one turn - you can always hire taxmen or build wealth so there is no reason why you can't stay solvent.

And you realize of course that many of the rules are "unenforceable". How are the admins going to know if you fortify a boat or double use tiles without checking every save? How is anyone going to know if you reload? If you want to cheat, so be it.
 
donsig said:
Oh, boy, that only makes me want to break the rule just to see if I can get away with it. Also reminds me of an ancient Korean saying: Nice guys finish last because they follow the unenforceable rules that no one else follows.
:vomit: oops, something tasted foul there...

Side note: The saying don't add up. TNT did finish last, but they weren't nice guys. How rigidly they followed unenforceable rules? Allow me to, in reference to the above post, be a bit uncertain.
 
Do the admins have to check every save to enforce the rules? I mean these things would be posted in the forum unless of course a team wanted to be super secret and do everything by PM's or go to the trouble to set up a forum somewhere else. At the end of the day i guess if someone wants to breaks the rules and are prepared to go to all lengths to do so then thats really sad for them. RL must really suck to feel the need to cheat to win a friendly (but competative) game of civ

Also a suggestion i thought of after reading a post from the old game in a certain teams forum, can we have random seed on reload off so people can't complain about the possiblity of save reloads
 
Random Seed reload OFF ... I would prefer it to stay as I recall needing some screenies and had to retrace what the Turntaker did to get them.

However if it is indeed a concern ... well maybe OFF is OK.
 
random seed on reload = off means that you can re-trace the turn player's actions without any changes

random seed on reload = on means that you could never retrace steps.


off is the way to go on that. There are times when KISS had to replay the save do to a corrupt or lost file. So there would have been no way to do that and end up with the same battle results. Even the barbs could have acted differently if the setting was on
 
Speaking of barbs...it's come up in the ISDG game during a barb uprising that the previous teams turnplayers barb setting (NoAIPatrol=1, only NE-SW. If NoAIPatrol=0, they can move anywhere) determined barb movement.

Can we have all turnplayers put their ini to one or the other for consistency?

Back to the topic of negative research spending I'd like to add that to the ruleset. I'd be shocked if my team wasn't unanimous on this.
 
I agree that it's really sad if anyone tries to cheat at a friendly (even if competitive) game of Civ. Anyone who does, should not be allowed to participate in Demogames (of any kind on CFC) ever again. Zero tolerance on crap, that is.

-Elear
 
whomp said:
Back to the topic of negative research spending I'd like to add that to the ruleset. I'd be shocked if my team wasn't unanimous on this.
yup.. even if it's not enforceable, I think that it needs to be in the rules as a code of conduct, so teams know what is right and what is wrong in this game. Rest assured that if anyone on my team tries any exploitish actions, it will get reported. Now stuff not in the rules, is fair game. Which is why I would like negative research in the rules.
 
Speaking of barbs...it's come up in the ISDG game during a barb uprising that the previous teams turnplayers barb setting (NoAIPatrol=1, only NE-SW. If NoAIPatrol=0, they can move anywhere) determined barb movement.

Is this ongoing throughout the game? When a team changes turnplayers, do we have to worry about what the current turnplayer has?
 
Is this ongoing throughout the game? When a team changes turnplayers, do we have to worry about what the current turnplayer has?

I'm not sure, however I would think so.
 
Is this ongoing throughout the game? When a team changes turnplayers, do we have to worry about what the current turnplayer has?
Yep. It's whatever the turnplayer has in their ini.
If Team A's player has nopatrol=0 then Team B would get barbs moving anywhere. If Team B has nopatrol=1 then Team C would get barbs moving on the NE/SW axis.

This would only be a factor when barbs are around.
 
Actually, I don't think understand this - barbs only move once per turn. How would they move differently for one team than for another? At the end of a round, they either move or they don't. Is it that they move differently based on which team they are closest to? :confused:
 
Actually, you're right so it would depend on the ini in the file before they move.
 
So whichever team is last in the turn order, we have to know what their barb setting is, and all their turnplayers should all use the same setting - that makes sense to me. I think it is definitely preferable to have NoAIPatrol=0 - make the barbs move as much as we can.
 
Agreed. I think most SGers already have that setting.
 
Side note: The saying don't add up. TNT did finish last, but they weren't nice guys. How rigidly they followed unenforceable rules? Allow me to, in reference to the above post, be a bit uncertain.

Dude, saying nice guys finish last doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons why someone can finish last. For example, poor players (whether nice or not) tend finish last. As we all know, TNT certainly played both the Civ and diplomatic games poorly. We also did not break any rules, unenforceable or otherwise. We did take alot of flak for renaming our capital city though doing so did not break any rules. No one stopped to consider the fact that we did that when it was obvious anyone paying attention could figure out what we did. Instead, to add insult to injury, we were basically accused not only of breaking a rule but of doing it in an incompetent manner! So pardon me if I'm a bit worried about the rules you all want to make.

If everyone wants a rule that says no deficit greater than cash reserves that at least sounds like an objective rule. I would point out though that there may be times when such a rule is inadvertantly transgressed. It's quite possible to be in such a tight spot financially while at the same time messing up micromanagement in such a way that an unexpected riot or whatever could put a team in violation. If that ever happened I hope the punishment wouldn't be too severe.

As far as enforcing the rule I suggest that the rule say that if any building is sold or unit disbanded automatically due to a deficit that the team advise the admins so it can be investigated. I'm assuming here that a pop up message appears when this happens. (I don't know how it works because it would never occur to me play that way!)

Finally, the rule should give some indication of the consequences of breaking the rule.
 
1.0 - Game Information
1.1 - The Save
All teams are required to play the save within 24 hours, unless they request an extension in the Turn Tracker thread. After playing the save, they must send it to the next team via email. Additionally, the turnplayer must post in the Turn Tracker thread to indicate the save has been sent. The next team's 24 hours begins after said post.

1.2 - Battle Logs
Teams are required to send a battle log to the team(s) they attack during their turn, indicating what units attacked, and what the result was. This includes bombardments as well. A sample line could read: "4HP Rifleman attacks 3HP Mustketman - Rifleman wins, still 4HP".

1.3 - Punishment
The game administrators are responsible for handing out punishment after a violation of a rule. Punishment may be limited to one single player or the team, but it will not be overly harsh or cruel. It could include forced anarchy, forced payment of gold, removal from the team forum for a period of time, or other actions. If a team feels it is unfair, they may appeal the decision.

1.4 - Clarifications
If a team would like to ask the administrator's approval for an action they want to undertake to see if it is against the rules or not, they may PM the administrators and get their interpretation. It is advised that if a team is in doubt, they ask the administrators and get a clarification.

1.5 - Refugees
After a team has been eliminated from the game, its members may apply to become members of another team still active. They are free to share any information they have with their new team.

1.6 - Acceptable Utilities
The following out-of-game utilities are allowed: CivAssist II and MapStat. When using these programs, please use the latest version. If you would like to use a utility that is not on those list, please contact the administrators to get approval.

2.0 - Banned Exploits
2.1 - Coordinated Capturing of Units
It is prohibited for teams to capture and recapture each turn units such as workers, catapults, and other non-combat units for the intent of using them twice in a turn against another team.

2.2 - Leader Sacrifices
Teams are not allowed to intentionally provide another team with units for the purpose of generating a Military Great Leader.

2.3 - Contact Trading
Contact trading in-game is allowed at Writing. While a team may send emails to any discovered teams, regardless of whether or not they have Writing, out-of-game contact between undiscovered teams may not occur unless they meet in-game or another team (with Writing) sells the contact to another team.

2.4 - Map Trading
Screenshots and visual maps cannot be traded between teams until Map Making is researched. After that, teams are free to trade screenshots as a normal trade item. Verbal maps (descriptions of the terrain, however detailed, as long as no images are involved) are allowed without any prerequisite.

2.5 - City Trading
Teams are not permitted to trade cities with the intent of teleporting units. Also, teams cannot rename cities and trade them as if they were a technology or resource (for example, renaming a city "Horses").

2.6 - Reloading
Reloading the save because of unfavorable outcomes or events is not allowed. If you are playing the save and the game crashes on you, it is permitted to load the save again, but please notify the administrators as well.

2.7 - Save Manipulation
Using any utility for the purpose of altering the game save or a game event is prohibited.

2.8 - Misleading Renaming
Teams cannot intentionally try to rename cities as technologies or resources, nor can they rename units to try and pass them off as another unit type to confuse the opponent.

2.9 - Ships' Visibility
It is not allowed to use up all of a ship's movement points and then press Fortify All, which will fortify not only the units in the boat, but also the boat itself, giving increased visibility on the next turn.

2.10 - Double Tile Usage
Scrolling through the city screens in the pre-turn for the purpose of shifting tiles around so that two cities can use the same tile in one turn is prohibited.

2.11 - Auto Go-To
Units can get double movement (as the second turn of movement happens earlier than it should) if the auto go-to command is used for distances over 1 turn. Do not use go-to commands for over 1 turn of distance.

2.12 - Negative Spending
Teams may not have a negative income which would put their treasury below zero gold, at the expense of just a few units or buildings, in order to gain advantages, such as running full science, which they could not normally afford with their regular income. Although having a negative income is permissible, perhaps to finish research of a technology one turn quicker, exploiting the game in the aforementioned manner, in a way that the disbanding of units and buildings does not make up for the commercial gains, is not allowed.

---------------------
My logic for "verbal maps" in 2.4 - I think, as we saw with MIA and KISS in MTDG I, the hassle of trying to agree on stuff verbally without being able to use screenshots or drawings of the map makes up for the fact that there is no prerequisite. It's nearly impossible to make a "quality" verbal map similar to a screenshot, and it provides an incentive to research Map Making.

Let me know if you have strong objections to 2.12, or its wording. Unless there are serious flaws, I would rather solve disputes through (team?) polling, not more discussion...
 
Ginger Ale said:
Although having a negative income is permissible, perhaps to finish research of a technology one turn quicker, exploiting the game in the aforementioned manner, in a way that the disbanding of units and buildings does not make up for the commercial gains, is not allowed.
Now, IMHO there should never be a case where negative income is applied purposely. the above case permits is however. I think if you get into anarchy and suddenly are faced with huge negative income, so be it. But under normal circumstances, negative income must never be allowed. Not even to finish research a turn quicker. It would be an exploit.
 
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