Russian UU

[BuDDaH]

Thanks all for your replies.
Kronis,
I don't know anything about socialism in Sweden and socoalism in Marx's or Lenin's theory, so I can't judge. The main thing is that SU had never been Communistic Utopia. It was a country with state regulated economy, society, culture, mass media and what not. You seem to know Russian history and WWII history very well. Thank you for that. I disagree with many issues but I'm not going to argue becuase I'm not completely sure that my viewpoint is right. Our knowledge of history is seldom objective since we didn't witness those events and our opinion is strongly influenced by stereotypes, propoganda and our subjective picture of the world. It seems we just say different truths in different languages, while the genuine truth remains unknown to all and is out there...Well, I do hope that yuo understand me. If don't just forget it.

LewsTherin, I apreciate youre understanding. What's your "Location" . I don't know why but I suspect you're from former SU. Do you spea...ehh...type Russian?

Jawz II, if you think that Riassia in the game is too strong and should be weakened with the lousy UU you suggest, then I can see what you mean. Guerilla itself is a lousy unit in the game. I personally never build it. It's just shieildwaste. About Katyushas. They were first used in 1944 near Orsha, Belrus, although first prototypes appeared in 1930-s. They were regular units of artelliery detachments after the war. If we assume that the true GA of Russia or Soviet Union (I don't see any essensial difference) began after its triuphal victory over Nazism, then Katyushas launching rockets and the Golden Age right in the final stage of the war are on its right place.
Bieng an awesome machine it has a very soft form of a Russian female name. Katyusa is short for Yekaterina (Cathrine). It's not an official name. It's a nickname that appeared during the war. Nobody knows how and why. There many versions but they are no more than versions. The most exotic one is that artillerists were fond of a famous song about a girl named Katyusha who deeply loved a soldier and was waiting him back from the war. Nowadays the word "Katyusha" is so strongly associated with the rocket launcher that very few people think about a girl named this way when they hear or read "Katyusha".

Nevertheless I must admit that yuo are completely right if you believe that the Great Patriotic War (So we call WWII in Russia) was won by infantry showing wonderous bravery, heroism and determination. They were figting with religious fervor for the ideas of communism, freedom, motherland, Stalin - the father of all peoples and the blood red banner. It was a "sacred war" according to a famous military hymn with bloodcurdling woords. They were perished for the common cause, not sparing their lives. There many examples of true heroism of common soviet soldiers. They won the war, not Katyushas. However Katyusha is a better alternative for the game, I think.

And about Phantom. There's a very interesting russian song about Phantom pilot and Vietnam of unknown author. I susspect it's just translation of an american one. Perhaps, you know some. I can translate the lyrics and send an mp3 file with it. Maybe, you've heard the musuc. I just need to know whether it's unique or not. Besides, it may be simply interesting to you...

P.S. It seems too many "songs" for one post, isn't it? Belive me, it's unintentional.

 

[Gelion]

Just one correction. Katushas were first used in September 1941. There were 20 of them bcak then. Later bigger formations were formed. I know that because in November (October) 1941 a regiment of Katushas was equipped with men from my school in Moscow. They fought all the way to Berlin .

 

[sir_schwick]

On the Great Britain/england thing, Great Britain was not really Great Britain until the 1500s, I think, because of Scotland. Longbows were really Wellish, but wales soon fell into the English holds in the middle ages. So Longbows were avaliable at the height of English, not British power. I thought the zenith of the British empire was teh 1700s?

Panther's had the same 88mm gun. Wow! That was one kick-ass tank. Too bad they were so late, like the ME-234(Jet aircraft). Actaully, I think the ME-234(I think the production nubmer is wrong) could have been built in 1940, but the Luftwaffe said it needed dive-bomb capability, stalling production for years. It would have been light-years ahead of even the P-51 Mustang in terms of air superiority.

 

[Jawz II]

i checked into it , turns out i was wrong!

the panthers were in fact armed with the rheinmetall L\70 75mm main gun,so actually they had less firepower than the tiger, but still i think they were better tanks than the tiger.

also their 75mm high velocity gun was better than the t-34s 76mm gun.

@buddah:

i dont think the russian UU is so good, ive never played russia, but did fight a war against them once, and didnt find the UU all that good!

i think my idea would make a better UU(of course when i say cheaper than infantry, it depends on how much cheaper...)

something to replace the guerilla but cheaper to buy would be better than the cosacks, i actually use guerillas alot in my games, i upgrade huge stacks of mid. infantry and before tanks they have the best attack value (6) same as cavalry

i send them out in 2 or 3 stacks of 20-30 mixed infantry/guerilla (mostly guerilla, the infantry is there to protect them) into enemy territory, sure theyre slow, so it takes them 2 or 3 rounds to get next to an enemy city, but by the time theyre there, your arty stack should be free, and able to use its 2 range and blast the crap out of the city defenders and then the human wave assault, red army style!!


heres an idea i had, what if russia instead of a new UU could draft regular troops (3 hp) instead of conscript (2 HP) but then get guerillas instead of infantry?
cause if they could get regular infantry it would be too good!

maybe they could draft something between infantry and guerilla? like revolutionary guard 6.8.1!
or buy it, but at the 3/4 or 2/3 of the price of infantry?



when it comes to ww2, i think what motivated the troops the most was the word of what the nazis were doing to civilians and war prisoners spread, and the people in the lines knew it was win or die, and have horrible things happen to your loved ones back home when they get there!

its like right now in iraq, say its 1%, or 2% tops, of the population that is fighting the americans,think of the all the trouble they are causing

lets say abu ghraib happened everywhere all the time, and 50% of the population were fighting the americans!!

imagine the mess!


call it love for motherland(which was likely a part of it specially for the russians), but i dont think many of the troops, specially those ethnic ones you mentioned would give a rats ass for comrad stalin, specially the way stalin sabotaged the war effort by sticking his nose in and stopping the generals (the few he left alive that paranoid git) from doing their work!!

i saw a documentary about a people called the calmucks(or something like that) and the tchechnians and many others were misstreated by stalin to say the least!

many experts say, had he not finally wised up and let zhjukov do his job all russian would speak german today!

ps. i havent heard any phantom songs,of course, that dosent mean there arent any,why dont you send me the lyrics?
actually up untill i was 6 yo i grew around phantom pilots and theyre kids

my father worked for the air force so we lived in an air base...

 

[sir_schwick]

The T-34 was not a bad tank and had it where it counted: production cost. THe war in the East was definitely one of attrition and logistics, and being able to continue mass-production of the T-34 helped Russia stay in the game.

One of Nazi Germany's many many faults(mostly under Hitler's order or organization) was the distribution of manufacturing. The AMericans refurbished the auto industries, which were used to producing tens and hundreds of thousands of units a year. The Nazi's relied on industries that did not produce as many units, Railcar Manufacturers and Heavy Machinery Companies.

 

[Amenhotep7]

I think the Cossack does just fine, but if I had to pick another one, it'd probably be sokme sorta Soviet Infantry. The one in the big brown bear fur coa and hat.

 

[Jawz II]

i think you mean the big gray red-army winter coat and fur-hat (here we call those bear vagina )

my grandpa had one of those, may he rest in peace

 

[sealman]

i checked into it , turns out i was wrong!

One of the signs of the apocolypse... A Civ Fanatics user admiting he was wrong...

(no offense meant to anyone, especially Jawz II)

 

[Longasc]

The Katyusha was also called "Stalinorgel" by the Germans (Stalin's organ). Because of the sounds of the starting rockets.

Some things I wish to contribute:

Tiger I: 88L56 main gun

Panther: 75mm high-velocity gun, better than the early "long" 75mm guns of the Panzer IV, was built in the later Panzer IV models (H-series), too.

King Tiger / Tiger II: 88L71 -> upgraded and longer version of the infamous 88.

The Jagdtiger had a 120mm gun, the Jagdpanther the 88L71 as the King Tiger.

The Jagdtiger suffered from the same problems as the IS-2 tank: The shells were so large that to load the projectile and the cartridge seperately, plus heavy weight and less ammo in total due to sheer size and weight. One must also remember that the main gun of the IS-2 was basically a horizontally aiming 122mm Artillery gun adapted for tank use.

The Tiger I became infamous, but the more modern designs were T-34 and Panther who was inspired by the T-34.

Tiger II and IS1,2,3 are examples of heavyweight and highly near immobile Juggernauts that had their uses, but the blend of firepower, mobility and protection neglected the mobility aspect too much.


BTW: I know the M1 Abrams has a gas turbine, but does it really SOUND like the Modern Armor sounds in Civ3?

 

[Jawz II]

One of the signs of the apocolypse... A Civ Fanatics user admiting he was wrong...

(no offense meant to anyone, especially Jawz II)

i agree

The Katyusha was also called "Stalinorgel" by the Germans (Stalin's organ). Because of the sounds of the starting rockets.

Some things I wish to contribute:

Tiger I: 88L56 main gun

did i say L55?
gues i was wrong again

i agree with long sac about the tank info

 

[Dreadnought]

See, the UUs of the nations are all put where the nation's time of glory was. The Roman Legionaire, for example, unit from around 100 AD, Rome's highest point. You can tell because of the armor and weapons. The English Man-o-War was from the early 19th century, and the same century was 'The British Century'. The USA is at its highest point today, and thats why the UU is a f-15. And so on and so forth...the Cassock is from RUSSIA'S greatest time (not USSR's!!!) and so the Cassock should be Russia's UU!

 

[LewsTherin]

LewsTherin, I apreciate youre understanding. What's your "Location" . I don't know why but I suspect you're from former SU. Do you spea...ehh...type Russian?

Haha yeah I'm Russian, born and lived there for most of my life. А ты откуда?

Now, to all of you who keep insisting on the USSR not being Russia.. Then what, Russia as a country had only existed since 1992? If the Soviet Union was the utopian government it thrived to be (in theory) then yes, it would be a whole new state of workers - but it wasn't! The Soviet Union was Russia with land losses and a radical government change. Then what, the Russian Empire isn't Russia either, since it lost and never recovered some lands (Poland, Finland, some of Turkey etc.) after the revolution? So France isn't France after 1792? You guys have gotta stop with the USSR being a unique country having little to do with Russia thing.

As for Russian UU, it should be from around WW2 Soviet era. Russia still has one of the most advanced armies in the world, but at the end of World War 2 only the US could rival Russia's armies.

 

[Philips beard]

Hi LewsTherin!!!!
I really agree with you. Calling USSR it's own Civ is meaningless, and shows bad understanding of history. USSR was just the russian empire changing name and government. A socialist state couldnt be associated with imperialism. A union of socialist republics sounded more harmonic with the marxist-leninistic philosophy, a union of equal soviet republics. But in practical real life it made no differance what you called it!!!!!!!! It was still the same Civ as during the empire, and still almost the same territory, but of course they lost some of it after the WW1, and gained some in the years after, and until 1945!

 

[Gelion]

Noone talked about making USSR a different Civ. Noone. We were talking about noting the difference between Russia and the Soviet union. If you read the histry of Russian civil war and Communist Agenda (World Revolution and such) you will understand that the system that came to power had very little in common with the Russian people and the people of the former Russian Empire. After 1945 when hopes for the world revolution faded USSR became more like a national state. Please read some books of the White generals (Russian civil war) or about the goals of communism. Then maybe you will undersand that the Leninist and Stalinist goverments were interested in the Russian people not more than a resource adn USSR (pre-1945) cannot be called a Russian country.

 

[LewsTherin]

Thanks, Philips beard

Gelion - trust me, I know Russian history very well, and have very recently read a book on Russia from 1900 on to World War 2, so my memory about that period of time is quite fresh (I know Russian Civil War). And yes, when the revolution first started it seemed that an ideal state was underway, a state that would not care about nationalities at all - it would be a state of workers, a so called dictatorship of the proletariat. So when the Soviet Republic was established it was quite radical about changing the way things were done - such as the terrible mistake that was War Communism, and the new formation of an army (no standing armies, but conscripts with no ranks that united together.. can't quite put it in words correctly). Of course the War Communism that stripped the peasants bare opened a way for the rebellion - and the civil war has finally began. The new type of the Soviet army proved to be terrible in battles against the formations of Kolchak and Denikin - so Trotsky (a brilliant commander) was put in charge of rebuilding the Red Army (plus, many officers formerly loyal to the Emperor were also recruited into the Red Army). He used extremely harsh measures, but succeeded - and his strategy along with the people resenting the pillaging done by the White armies caused the Soviet republic to emerge victorious in the war. They survived - but it is now that Russia has become a sole state that was a dictatorship with some socialistic quirks! The sailors of Kronstadt, not someone still loyal to the monarchy, but rather always first and loyal to support the Bolsheviks have rebelled against the new ruling system, with the party above all. In fact, Lenin called such a rebellion more dangerous than Kolchak, Yudenich and Denikin all together. But it was crushed, and with it died the hope of establishing a true Soviet republic.
By that time Lenin was already sick and losing control. Many camps were made in the party, but here I will only talk about two individuals - Trotsky (whose dream was fast industrialization, and indeed the world revolution at the cost of the destruction of the Russian state) and Stalin (whose idea was Communism in a single country - aka Communist Russia). Then Stalin used his own strategy to gain power - first allying himself with the right wing of the party to crush Trotsky, then going against his former allies (such as Zinoviev). In the mid to late 20s he was already the most powerful individual in the party - and the now more or less matured Soviet Union became Russia under a new system of government.

 

[Gelion]

LewsTherin, very nice historical facts, but I do not see how you jumped to your conclusion. It was done quickly and without any support from the facts you gave.

I'm not arguing , I'm trying to understand your reasoning ....

 

[LewsTherin]

Yeah, I suppose I was half asleep when I wrote that message There I was just trying to describe the times where the Soviet Union was still in stages where Russian nationalism was really crushed and the revolution could go further and make the Soviet Union not Russia (at all) but a new kind of communist state put together by a common identity of workers, not a state put together by a feeling of common ancestors/culture/race. In the end I stated that the USSR became communist Russia because Stalin and his idea of communism in one state (which I feel is simply an old nation under the USSR style communist regime) triumphed. No, Stalin did not care about how much people he had killed during his reign if his goals were accomplished, and the propaganda was not about national identity but about the triumphs of communism but the Soviet Union remained to its people a new Russia.

And yeah lol, sorry if it seemed as if I was trying to argue like crazy, there I was just stating my point of view

 

[201st Division]

Maybe its better to make some UU for each nation? (maybe for different ages)
Like Cossack >> Rus. Infantry (very cheap) >> T-72


BuDDaH, there are more then 30% of "russian-speaking" in Latvia. (according to officcial returns), and about 50% in Riga (capital) and Daugavpils (second biggest city)
Sorry for off topic

 

[shr00mz]

While I would welcome a Soviet Union civ into the game, there must be a clear distinction between the two.

what is wrong with you? russia is a civ.. ussr is only a name of union of states.. but ussr is russia and russia is not ussr.. you cant make ussr as civ.. that is almost as stupid as making america a civ.. and seeing american knights

 

[Dreadnought]

I got a german UU...The Bismark! A beefed up battleship with extra attack/defense/bombadment...as for the Russian UU, the cassock is fine. shr00mz, I did not understand a single word of your post