San Francisco unveils universal health care plan

[Hotpoint]

Oh yeah? Well....at least we have teeth!

Hey I have teeth... and the government subsidised the cost of my brace to straighten them

You do realize that higher life expectancy means more older, sick people for your already bloated government to support, right?

Ah but at half the cost we can afford so many more

 

[MobBoss]

Most Americans love to highlight how long wait times are for major surgery in Canada and Europe.

But if most people are in hospitals for birth, cuts, scrapes, broken arms, accidents... Anyways I meant to say most people aren't in hospitals for major surgery.

So Universal Health Care works quite well.

Uhm. I disagree. Being in the military, I see health care on a more socialized level than most americans. It does not work "well" at all for minor things. When people know that they can see the doctor for free...they will go see the doctor for anything...even imagined illness. People in the military hospitals go see the doc even if they remotely think they are sick.

I would rather cut my own foot off with a dull rusty butter knife than go to the emergency room for some ailment. If you must go, you are generally gone between 6-10 hours just to be seen by a doc who writes you a quick prescription and says if it persists more than three days come back.

Insane. I would much rather self-medicate with store bought stuff and lie in bed till I feel better. Much less painful.

 

[.Shane.]

You do realize that higher life expectancy means more older, sick people for your already bloated government to support, right?

That is stunning logic. We should start cancelling all programs that encourage long life and health.

We need Logan's Run. Kill everyone at age 30! Oops.... that means I'd be dead now.

/looks at blinking crystal on palm of hand.

 

[ChrTh]

That is stunning logic. We should start cancelling all programs that encourage long life and health.

We need Logan's Run. Kill everyone at age 30! Oops.... that means I'd be dead now.

/looks at blinking crystal on palm of hand.

See Post 19.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Uhm. I disagree. Being in the military, I see health care on a more socialized level than most americans. It does not work "well" at all for minor things. When people know that they can see the doctor for free...they will go see the doctor for anything...even imagined illness. People in the military hospitals go see the doc even if they remotely think they are sick.

I would rather cut my own foot off with a dull rusty butter knife than go to the emergency room for some ailment. If you must go, you are generally gone between 6-10 hours just to be seen by a doc who writes you a quick prescription and says if it persists more than three days come back.

Insane. I would much rather self-medicate with store bought stuff and lie in bed till I feel better. Much less painful.

I think you only experience this because the people you are around are entirely new to this type of system or treatment.

The hosiptal isn't your only alternative either. There's got to be atleast 25 clinics in my city of 200,000 people to visit as well. It's free either way.

But you will wait regardless if you show up with a bruise and someone walks in with a sick baby. It only makes sense.

 

[Hotpoint]

When people know that they can see the doctor for free...they will go see the doctor for anything...even imagined illness. People in the military hospitals go see the doc even if they remotely think they are sick.

The flip side to this is that preventative medicine is a lot cheaper than fixing the problem after its well entrenched. The high costs of even minor treatment in a private system deters people from going to the doc until the complaint is much more serious and difficult to remedy.

This is likely one reason why Americans are considerably less healthy than Brits overall.

White middle-aged Americans are less healthy than their English counterparts, research suggests.
Americans aged 55 to 64 are up to twice as likely to suffer from diabetes, lung cancer and high blood pressure as English people of the same age.

The healthiest Americans had similar disease rates to the least healthy English, the Journal of the American Medical Association study found.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4965034.stm

 

[ChrTh]

@Hotpoint:

diabetes & high blood pressure = lousy diet, little exercise
lung cancer = smoking

While I'm not saying a UHC wouldn't help, one suspects the reason Americans are less healthy has nothing to do with medical systems.

 

[Hotpoint]

@Hotpoint:

diabetes & high blood pressure = lousy diet, little exercise
lung cancer = smoking

While I'm not saying a UHC wouldn't help, one suspects the reason Americans are less healthy has nothing to do with medical systems.

Although not living quite as unhealthy a lifestyle overall as our Colonial Cousins, if you think the nation of beer-swilling, pie-eating, couch-potato layabouts I come from is living that much of a better lifestyle than you I must beg to differ

 

[ChrTh]

Although not living quite as unhealthy a lifestyle overall as our Colonial Cousins, if you think the nation of beer-swilling, pie-eating, couch-potato layabouts I come from is living that much of a better lifestyle than you I must beg to differ

Aye, but from what I understand, that's just your men. Over here, the Yank women are just as bad as the men, so that doubles the effect.

Er, except for my wife of course.

 

[Godwynn]

So... kill the old people?

I prefer forced labor. Force them to build our roads for free. Infrastructure costs a lot of money, and so does Social Security, so we can take down two birds with one stone. Imagine an army of 70+ year old people building your highway, or parks, or schools for the children for free! The future would be bright.

 

[Hotpoint]

Aye, but from what I understand, that's just your men. Over here, the Yank women are just as bad as the men, so that doubles the effect.

Er, except for my wife of course.

Okay I will concede that in my visits to the Colonies I have encountered a higher percentage of... how can I put this delicately... "harpoon-worthy" females than you will typically see in Europe.

My (American) girlfriend is of course not even remotely harpoon-worthy...

...you can put the club down now sweetheart

 

[Elrohir]

You're right that sort of socialism is an unmitigated disaster in Europe, and the system you have now is excellent

Give it a try you never know it might be very successful.

That depends upon what the goal was. If the goal was to make everyone comfortable by giving them tons of money and benefits, at the cost of taxing the rich heavily, and slowing economic growth to a crawl, then I would say the European model has been quite successful. By American standards, though, it has been an unmitigated dssaster.

European's seem quite proud of their welfare state, something that puzzles me. Sure, it's great to have free healthcare and education, (Among other things) but at what cost? I prefer the US capitalist model, thank you very much.

 

[Hotpoint]

European's seem quite proud of their welfare state, something that puzzles me. Sure, it's great to have free healthcare and education, (Among other things) but at what cost? I prefer the US capitalist model, thank you very much.

At what cost you ask?

US Healthcare Spending per capita $4631.00
UK Healthcare Spending per Capita $1764.00

US Education Spending (Secondary School per pupil) $7764.00
UK Education Spending (Secondary School per pupil) $5230.00

The US gets terrible value for money in these sectors. Health and Education are pretty much the only things that the State really does seem to do more efficiently than Private Enterprise overall.

Remember that it doesn't matter whether your wages are taken by the government or paid to a private company, its what's left over afterwards that matters surely?

 

[MobBoss]

I think you only experience this because the people you are around are entirely new to this type of system or treatment.

Uhm...nope. The military has been doing this like that for decades. It isnt anything new.

The hosiptal isn't your only alternative either. There's got to be atleast 25 clinics in my city of 200,000 people to visit as well. It's free either way.

Thats not the case here.

But you will wait regardless if you show up with a bruise and someone walks in with a sick baby. It only makes sense.

Yeah, but peoples definition of "sick" greatly varies. A baby isnt necessarily sick if its core body temperature is + or - a degree or two off of 98.6. I actually sat next to a woman once who brought her kid in because her kid wasnt crying as much as usual and she thought something was wrong.

Crazy people.

 

[pboily]

Are you kidding? Do you know how much money the US makes because of all the Euros/Canadians who come over here to get the surgery they need done in a week instead of having to wait a year? We have enough problems with our trade deficit.

funnily enough, we might have enough to make everything available here if you guys just paid up what you owe us...

How Americans stiff our hospitals

 

[MobBoss]

The flip side to this is that preventative medicine is a lot cheaper than fixing the problem after its well entrenched. The high costs of even minor treatment in a private system deters people from going to the doc until the complaint is much more serious and difficult to remedy.

This is likely one reason why Americans are considerably less healthy than Brits overall.

And yet, from this website http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm the average life expectancy between the two counties is very close. United Kingdom men: 77.7 United States 77.1. If americans are twice as unhealthy as brits, but still living almost as long what does that say?

a. The data just doesnt add up and Americans are not "twice" as unhealthy as brits.

or

b. Despite americans more unhealthy lifestyle, their medical care system is better at keeping people alive longer.

 

[Hotpoint]

If americans are twice as unhealthy as brits, but still living almost as long what does that say?

a. The data just doesnt add up and Americans are not "twice" as unhealthy as brits.

or

b. Despite americans more unhealthy lifestyle, their medical care system is better at keeping people alive longer.

No one realistically doubts that the US has some very good Hospitals that are extremely good at curing disease, the problem is, as I said earlier, that prevention is cheaper than cure (much, much cheaper for Cancer for example)

Universal free healthcare encourages people to see their Doctors earlier when the problem is much easier to solve. If you think about it, in a profit-driven private system it is not actually in the Hospitals interest to prevent ailments, curing the problem afterwards makes a lot more money.

 

[Elrohir]

At what cost you ask?

US Healthcare Spending per capita $4631.00
UK Healthcare Spending per Capita $1764.00

US Education Spending (Secondary School per pupil) $7764.00
UK Education Spending (Secondary School per pupil) $5230.00

The US gets terrible value for money in these sectors. Health and Education are pretty much the only things that the State really does seem to do more efficiently than Private Enterprise overall.

Remember that it doesn't matter whether your wages are taken by the government or paid to a private company, its what's left over afterwards that matters surely?

Link?

On healthcare, even if those numbers are accurate, I still believe privatized health care is the way to go. I've heard way too much about how terrible the health care is in Canada, and how long the waits are, to find that an acceptable alternative. I believe one of your judges put it as "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care."

As for education, the US wastes a lot of money here. I'm not quite sure why, but homeschool or private school stuents often get much higher average grades, on average, than public school students, even though they have a fraction of the cost to work with. I'm not quite sure what the problem is here, but it certainly exists.

 

[Hotpoint]

Link?

My apologies

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_sec_sch_stu-spending-per-secondary-school-student

On healthcare, even if those numbers are accurate, I still believe privatized health care is the way to go. I've heard way too much about how terrible the health care is in Canada, and how long the waits are, to find that an acceptable alternative. I believe one of your judges put it as "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care."

Canada spends just over half what the US does on Healthcare. What do you think US Hospitals would be like if you dropped their funding by say 40%?

I'm arguing value for money

As for education, the US wastes a lot of money here. I'm not quite sure why, but homeschool or private school stuents often get much higher average grades, on average, than public school students, even though they have a fraction of the cost to work with. I'm not quite sure what the problem is here, but it certainly exists.

One problem that I can see with the US Education System is that its not centrally administered. Locally Elected School Boards and a lack of Federal control may be democratic but its not a recipe for efficiency IMHO.

 

[Sidhe]

It seems that not only do we live near each other Hotpoint, but we both work in hospitals, what do you do Hot Point, pm me if you like? You work at the QA right? me it's SGH.

Mob Boss where does this perception about British teeth come from, as far as I know our dental health is on a par with anywhere else in the western world? I have one tooth missing caused by having an absess expunged by drilling a tooth and then not getting it capped. I have no fillings and all the other teeth are strong, I never visit the dentist, In fact I've visited the dentist twice in twenty years.

I think the US would benefit from National health, it would certainly sort out a lot of asosciate wastage in health care, it would really piss off the insurance companies but it'd be worth it. It works over here, so why not?

WE get US citizens taking advantage where I work, but hey I'm sure they spend plenty while there over here, so no probs.