Sandman's Diplo Fastest Finish

Tiny Warlord finally gave me a chance at grabbing the number one spot, but I blew it! Early popped settler, and earlyish SGL for the pyramids. Everything was looking good until I popped writing, while still finish research on horseback riding, and made the extremely silly move of continuing to pop GHs. Next thing I know I have popped philosophy, and save 4 turns on HBR research. Having to research republic cost around 20 turns of lost time, I think. End result 760AD, and not submitted. :cry:

So I decided to get on with the emperor quest. First map, the AI popped philosophy 1 turn before mine was due to complete and they grabbed construction. That map was dumped at that point.

Second map - an early free settler, no Pyramids SGL though, but two cows and two game at the start. I decided to stick with it and see what happened. End result 890AD diplo victory, and this one was submitted. Full write up to come. :)
 
The settings used were:

Standard world size
Sedentary Barbarians
Pangaea 60% water
Normal, warm, 5 billion years
All standard victory conditions enabled
Allow SGLs
Emperor difficulty
Least aggressive setting
Played as Russia

AI:
Greeks
Byzantines
Sumerians
Koreans
Ottomans
Persians
Iroquois

Start position:
SM_HF7_4000BC.jpg


I went with normal intead of wet to reduce jungle and swamp from hindering my scouts, and wasting worker turns to clear. I still had reasonable river coverage near the start location.
SM_HF7_1000BC.jpg

Empire at 1000BC (QSC period)

The Iroquois were a mistake, actually. As I selected civs to play against I was reviewing them by selecting them as the player civ. This changes the AI slot to random, and I forgot to change one slot back prior to running mapfinder. :crazyeye: Fortunately, the Iroquois were close, and in a horrible start location, so I just used them for future expansion. :lol:

QSC stats:
10 cities
36 pop
2 settlers
7 workers
4 scouts
13 warriors
Missing currency and construction from AA (and monarchy).

Because I had had no SGLs to this point, I wasn't convinced that I would keep the map, and so played without taking the time to record a timeline. The consequences probably were that I didn't optimise the build to this point. So, yes, I think this map could have produced a better date.

Research
The emperor AI steals GHs! So even on a standard map, there was never going to be a chance to rush through the AA based on popping! I was able to coax the AI to learn some crucial techs including code of laws, iron working and construction, by feeding them the necessary pre-requisities (usually for all their cash to fund my research). AT 710BC we turned off research on an almost fully researched currency, hoping the AI would finally learn construction. In 610BC the AI finally did something useful, and leanrt construction, enabling our entry to the MA.

We picked up the full first tier, and the useless chivalry in the new age splash. Then set research on theology - education - astronomy - banking, while providing encouragement for the scientific AIs to learn invention. That plan worked, and we picked up and SGL used to rush Copernicus. Combined with a conquered MoM, this kicked off a later MA GA. We were already way outstripping AI research at this time, but by learning all the techs up the physics line, and again coaxing the AI, we were able to get metallurgy from the AI as well. Also a second SGL turned into Newtons. In 340AD we entered the IA, picking up steam, medicine, and industrialisation as aour free tech.

In the IA, we never succeeded in reaching 4-turn research, and the AI was completely useless in researching anything for us. The AI becomes too intent on going after all the MA optionals, then the IA government techs. By the time they had fascism, we were almost modern! At the beginning of the IA, I always search for coal. It is vital for accelerating research speed. In case I didn't have it, I had positioned two SODs of knights ready to invade Greece, whom I assumed would be the closest AI most likely to have coal if I lacked it. In the end, there was no need. I had several sources of coal in my borders, but none connected. However, workers were mining a tile coal was on. This quickly became roading, and then railing was able to commence throughout the land.

Wars
In the MA we fought two wars against the Iroquois to take all their land, and one against the Ottoman's to pick up two key luxes.The first Iroquois war was started by us in 510BC. At this time we had the vast military strength of 7 warriors, 5 swords and two MI, but this was enough to be average against the Iroquois!
SM_HF7_510BC.jpg

Iroquois Homeland

In 330BC, we gave peace to the Iroquois after taking three cities (half their empire), and more importantly, an extra lux taking our total to three. As the priority was always research infrastructure, the army was starved of resources, although the conflict was finished with knights.

The Ottoman war was fought with knights from 150BC to 10BC, and secured two more native luxes, taking our total to 5.
SM_HF7_Ottos.jpg


The Iroquois were routed from their homeland 130AD to 270AD, which included one small settlement they had later squeezed in between Greek and Ottoman territory. Unfortunately this did not kill them, but instead left a settler on a boat somewhere for the rest of the game!

Finally, late IA, Greece declared war on us, just because almost all of our cities were ungarrisoned! Since I was going to MPP all the Sci civs sooner or later, I did it then. A small holding action was all that was necessary to protect ourselves from Greece.

Final Push to UN
IA research was electricity to replaceable parts (for faster rail-roaders), then sci-method for ToE, then up the other path. Research times looked to be about 6 turns a tech, giving a finish date around the 950AD of Tone. As we hadn't pushed the land grab as much as we could, the only way to push out more science was to combat corruption. So, courthouses were built everywhere that was useful, communism was purchased, and police stations also built. JS Bach's, a sixth luxury culturally squeezed from Greece, and a regular seventh from trading tech resulted in WLTK days throughout the land, and research times dropping to five turns at the end.

Final note, I picked up a third SGL during the IA, and as the discussion on inter-turn worker assignments was still in progress, I elected to use the leader rather than a palace pre-build for the UN. Modern age, I picked up only fission and rocketry off the AI, with space flight my free tech. The vote was 5 for Russia, one for Sumeria, abstentions from Greece and Iroquois (who didn't even have a capital). Diplo victory in 890AD.
 
Score: 8828
Date: 1180AD
Condition: Diplomatic Victory
Civilization: Sumeria
Version: C3C 1.22
Submitted: 2005-03-10 05:45:07
File: 457_1144_Sandman2003_Sumeria_Deity_Standard_C3C_1_22_AD1180.sav

Ok, obviously I changed a few things since I ran with Sumeria, insteda of Russia for deity. The way I figured it, there was no way an expansionist civ would have time to pop many huts for tech before the AI monster covered the map with their settlements. I did, however, leave sedentry barbs on in the hope that this might help speed along the AI. As I wasn't going to be expansionist, I wasn't going to pop any deity GHs!

So which civ for me? Obviously, I went with Sumeria for the agricultural trait, but I considered Byzantines for faster early contacts, and sea bonus commerce, Persia for faster workers and a good offensive AA UU, Greece for starting with alphabet, and the commercial bonus. and finally Babylon for religious, so that I could change to democracy for an IA research boost.

To be perfectly honest I am not sure that any of these wouldn't have been at least as good or even better than Sumeria. I went with Sumeria because it is easier to find a suitable map to create a four turn settler/warrior (enkidu) pump, and a two turn worker pump. With enough food, any of the other civs could have accomplished this as well, and then had other advantages over Sumeria.

For the world, I went with standard size pangea 60% water, normal wetness, temperate, 5 billion years old. Pangea offers the fastest possible tech pace, and contacts, I think! It also removes the need for boats, although I eventually did a circumnavigation in a curragh. This proved unnecessary (except to identify exactly where the AI were) as all contacts came to me quickly from scouting warriors, even before finding evidence of the AI civs.

The AI chosen were:
Korea
Ottomans
Persia
Germany
Greece
Russia
Babylon

Here is the situation at 1000BC:1000BC
As you can see, the expansion phase is over, I missed the philosophy-republic slingshot, and we were totally resource deprived - no luxes, no horses or iron. To the SW is Korea who have two luxes and both strategic resources. North is the Ottomans who are likewise endowed. War with Korea was inevitable.
QSC stats:
12 cities
39 pop
17 workers
5 archers
1 catapult
13 Enkidu warriors
1 curragh
And we were missing only currency from the compulsory AA techs.

To stay with the tech leaders, and keep the tech pace high, I brought in to the MA which also means that you lose the opportunity to use the big pricture and get a second tier tech. You have to research the last tech in the age in order to be able to use this trick (which I already knew, but I considered that I needed to stay with the tech leaders more than get a jump to the second tier). I left Korea in the AA, but gifted/traded the others into the MA. I was first to theology, education (no cheesy GL tricks in this game)and astronomy, picking up an SGL on the way. In trades this got me $$s, luxes, Invention, Gunpowder, Chivalry, and most importantly horses and then iron.

Two border cities flipped to the Koreans during this time, although I retained cultural borders right up to one of these cities. After a long thought, the SGL became Leo's not Copernicus, as the horse to knight upgrade is relatively the most expensive in the game, and the Korean war was a must win. My force of about 20 knights was joined by 10 longbows (those archers became useful after all) and war was declared. I quickly brought in multiple alliancesw, although only the Ottomans proved useful in the conflict per se, killing at least a dozen Korean units in my view.

The war generated a leader - knight army. An enkidu warrior also took it upon itself to attack a redlined sword, and well, he umm... just won, kicking off a well timed GA. The GA plus a bit of Ottos help resulted in carving up the Koreans, leaving just one city so that they could be used on the new age. We used a mix of raze and replace, and keep for the Korean cities, and squeezed a few extras in for good measure (never liked AI spacing). We also had the opportunity to build up our infrastructure - unis and then markets.

We lost our sole army in the war, and didn't see another one for the duration. However, with luxes and resources, plus the GA we had no trouble keeping up with the AI (and draing off some gpt to fund our research) untill the IA.

We of course had no saltpeter! Also, I again brought into the IA, but didn't bring the Ottomans in with me. All the AI and our free techs were nationalism and steam power - no medicine for free! Also we had no coal (the civ gods really didn't like my Sumerians!) The Ottoman's had two sources of saltpeter, and a visible coal source in the jungle several cities into their borders! We needed another war!

I dogpiled the world against the Ottomans, and temporarily purchased coal from the Germans. The knights, even the elites became cavalry (Ottos quickly got to the IA, and nationalism anyway, so I needed the fire power). It was a bit touch and go in the beginning since the Ottos had their Sipahi, and no doubt a GA, but since it was against the whole world, they were eventually toast. We seured saltpeter immediately, and got to our own coal so we didn't need to renew the German deal. We also picked up a monopoly lux before the fascist Germans steamrolled through the rest of the Ottoman empire and wiped them out! That wasn't part of the plan!

To add insult to injury, the Germans then dogpiled the rest of the world against the Persians and steamrolled through them as well, wiping out a second sci civ! We used the opportunity to resettle the cleared out landscape, and by applying cultural pressure on a German held former Ottoman city (remember the Germans were fascist) our borders expanded and stole a fourth lux!

Meanwhile the Greeks were threatening to run away with the tech race. They had a monopoly on medicine, and wanted my whole economy for it, they beat me to electricty and were up the corporation as well! Fortunately, our run for ToE was successful, regaining control of the tech lead for us.

The game got really interesting just a few turns out from the Modern Age. The Germans declared war on the Gracious Russians who were paying us almost 200gpt to boot. MPPs dragged the rest of the world and us into this unwanted war! Now we were faced with 6 civs, including us of which the Koreans were still furious, and there was nothing I could do about it! The Germans were clearly going to be the opponents due to their size and pop ratings, and the Russians would be furious with usa due to the war we were forced into. 3-3 even if some votes are abstentions is considered inconclusive, you must win with a clear majority.

The solution - goodbye Korea. All you had to do was become gracious with us over time, and you would have seen in the modern age. Oh well! I was able to make the Greeks and the Babylonians gracious by declaring on the Germans and bringing them into the war (actually the Babs would have none of it, but signed an MA against Russia making them gracious, then when the Germans invaded our territory, our MPP forced them into that war as well).

I didn't need to do any IT fiddling in this one either. I deliberately delayed the prebuild during normal turn time, so that I had one turn's grace after entering the Modern Age. It proved necessary too, as I could not buy fission from the Greeks with all my cash reserves, but I picked up computers, and that trade worked a dream!

Final map in 1180AD:1180AD

Final thoughts - In light of the new Quartermasters challenge, I should have changed the final game plan to go for space. I had Hoovers and factories throughout the core, so I was well set up for that goal! Besides the modern warfare would have been fun!
 
So it looks like using higher difficulty levels to beat the Chieftain dates for Spaceship and Diplo by using faster tech rate from opponents will not go as smoothly as people thought?
 
It will be hard.. I submitted a 960AD diplomatic win on sid thou, and it was far from optimal.. should be quite possible to get the sid one down to atleast 500-600AD
 
But do you expect it to be possible to reach the 200-400 dates that ppl did on Chieftain (dont forget they had some practice, so it may take awhile)...

BTW a writeup on that would be interesting...
 
Hard to say.. since i was eager to start, I took the first map that mapfinder came up with that had a food resource and a river..
I would end up with 0 luxes, 2 iron, 1 horse and 1 coal.. and and no other resources.
I also only popped 1 warrior, 1 map and then barbs 5 or 6 times from huts.. an early settler would have helped.
 
You cant get a Settlers from a hut on Sid.
Only barbs, warrior and maps (and gold if youre exp).
 
hmm.. ok.. well, reason I had the huts there was to speed up the tech speed for the AIs thou, not to get settlers ;)

Edit: @Sandman: sorry for making this discussion start in your thread :)
 
I don't think the Chieftain dates will be beaten.

The faster AI tech rate may balance the slower human tech rate. But nothing on higher difficulties can match the Middle Age date of chieftain pangea hut popping.
 
DaveMcW said:
I don't think the Chieftain dates will be beaten.

The faster AI tech rate may balance the slower human tech rate. But nothing on higher difficulties can match the Middle Age date of chieftain pangea hut popping.
Yes, this is the biggest problem. Looking back on saves I see the AIs was not able to enter MA till 1250BC. Thou I was plaing on Archepalagio, so playing on pangea would speed it up a few turns prolly.
 
You could potentially get similarly fast times upto Monarch (20% compared to 35%) with huts, and 10-20 turns shouldn't make that much of a difference. The important difference would be to get contacts and constantly feed the AI, so if they pop techs, they get new techs, otherwise you will lose time.
 
Gyathaar said:
hmm.. ok.. well, reason I had the huts there was to speed up the tech speed for the AIs thou, not to get settlers ;)

Edit: @Sandman: sorry for making this discussion start in your thread :)
No worries mate, and I too, would like to see a writeup of your sid game.

I agree with DaveMcW. I don't think even sid will yield 200AD finish dates. Whilst the AI does become useful (marginally on emperor, does quite a lot on deity, and on sid, I assume thatthe AI have to actually virtually do all the research for you), the problem is you also have to waste time (in game time, and playing time) embroiled in wars preventing maximum tech rate, as you have to build military instead of knowledge buildings etc. Also the cost of tech to the human does mean that it is much much harder to get to four turn research while you are trying to drive the tech pace.

Of course SirPleb may be able to come up with a truly different slant on this to deliver a really early sid date.....

By the way Gyathar, that is the same reason I had huts in my deity game.

I suppose for diplo, there is one other way to go. The human could forfeit the tech lead deliberately, and hope the AIs run away with it, then if the human survives to the modern age, make an all or nothing play for the GL or the UN (depending). Maybe an unhindered AI would go through the tech tree a lot faster. That is not how I intend to play the game though!
 
Smirk said:
You could potentially get similarly fast times upto Monarch (20% compared to 35%) with huts, and 10-20 turns shouldn't make that much of a difference. The important difference would be to get contacts and constantly feed the AI, so if they pop techs, they get new techs, otherwise you will lose time.
I don't think that the Monarch AI would prove a useful tech partner. They are just too slow, even when fed techs. On emperor, feeding the AIs techs resulted in a marginal usefulness. AFter all would you give up the expansionist trait to the AI, or run on a large/huge map with non-sci expansionist civs just so they could help with techs in the AA? Then after the AA you are still faced with a useless AI, and tech-rate penalties versus lower levels.
 
Sandman2003 said:
and on sid, I assume thatthe AI have to actually virtually do all the research for you), the problem is you also have to waste time (in game time, and playing time) embroiled in wars preventing maximum tech rate, as you have to build military instead of knowledge buildings etc. Also the cost of tech to the human does mean that it is much much harder to get to four turn research while you are trying to drive the tech pace.

I suppose for diplo, there is one other way to go. The human could forfeit the tech lead deliberately, and hope the AIs run away with it, then if the human survives to the modern age, make an all or nothing play for the GL or the UN (depending). Maybe an unhindered AI would go through the tech tree a lot faster. That is not how I intend to play the game though!
I never started any wars, I only expanded peacefully. I was at war for 20 turns thou, but only becauseI had not built enough military units, so one of the civs decided to unload a few boatloads of cavs next to my capital, so I had no choice to not tall them to leave (and they declared).

Thou I played on an archepelagio, all but 1 AI started on the same big island, so tech rate was ok.. Ottomans that was on an island by itself was totally useless thou.. all they could do for me was give me luxes for techs I gave them, plus getting free techs when I gifted them to next age.

The tech race was driven by greeks,koreans and byzantines (fed by some gpt from me). I was always making sure all the AIs was at same lvl in science, so they would spend less time wasting research on already known techs, thou I gave up on the ottomans soon for this.
 
Sandman2003 said:
@Gyathar - so the archipelago saves on wars, hmmm... What about luxes and resources? Was your island well blessed with these?
As I wrote earlier:
I would end up with 0 luxes, 2 iron, 1 horse and 1 coal.. and and no other resources.

Resources was distributed in a dreadful way.. only after a few minor wars started between some AIs and a few cities changed owner was I able to trade for saltpeter, oil, rubber and some of the luxes.. I think in end I was able to buy 4 luxes.
 
I guess I have a bit of a lux addiction. I ended up owning four, but through trade (techs mainly) often had a full eight. This does wonders for corrupt cities outside the core aiding research pace.
 
My problem was I only played with 4 AI opponents.. so I could not go to war with anyone without meaning I would loose vote.. the most remote civ (Koreans) was furious on me after I took away 2 cities they had placed in my lands during the war they declared.. the rest of the AIs was gracious, and my nearest neighbour Byzantines was my opponent in vote.. however they were just a few % ahead of Greece.. so had I gone to war with byzantines and taken a few towns, then greece would be my opponent, and only ottomans would vote for me :)

Oh yeah, korea had no resources or luxes I didnt already have (except uranium, but that didnt matter)
 
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