Saturn Embassy

This Just In:

Spoiler :
Memphus says:
Good Morning (could be evening for you) do you have a second?
Lord says:
yep, evening here
Lord says:
and yes
Memphus says:
cool! Did you guys receive the letter?
Lord says:
yep
Lord says:
posted it on the forum, been a bit of discussion
Memphus says:
pretty intense stuff we didn't expect them to show up before we captured the city
Lord says:
ah, right
Lord says:
how many turns until it grows? do you know?
Memphus says:
by my estimate, if worst case happens (from when we first saw the city, and barbs built a worker first)
Memphus says:
is T97 + or - a turn
Memphus says:
but as our letter said, if they get that city, we are trapped and have no land route to you (wish we could send screenshots)
Lord says:
ah, ok
Lord says:
doesn't sound too good
Lord says:
if it's just a chariot, can't you just kill it?
Memphus says:
we could attack them, and we discussed that at length
Memphus says:
but felt we shouldn't do that so fresh into an alliance with you
Lord says:
oh?
Memphus says:
so instead we opted for the threatening letter, and then filling you guys in
Lord says:
I don't think it would matter to us much... you're welcome to war with whom you want to (aside from us )
Memphus says:
now if we have your support (and Kaz says no we are staying put)
Memphus says:
then yes chariots are dying
Lord says:
heh
Lord says:
cool
Lord says:
have Kaz responded to you yet?
Memphus says:
no...
Memphus says:
but i bet they are saying: "who cares we get feud in 6-7 turns" thier Horse Archers have no chance
Memphus says:
so they might try and call us on it.
Lord says:
ah, ok
Lord says:
I think the main problem for us is how we'd word any message we sent to Kaz... "um, we heard there's a barbarian city that you're near that SANCTA wants, and if you don't give it to them then our previous tech deal will be cancelled"...
Lord says:
seems a little weasely
Memphus says:
yeah i know...
Lord says:
although of course if you requested, we'd deny Kaz the tech regardless
Memphus says:
well i don't think we need to go that far...it is important for you guys to honour the trade, but Kaz needs to get a bit scared
Memphus says:
unless at this point you feel confident in going 2 vs. 2 and try to swing MS?
Memphus says:
Maybe the wording of something like (to say to Kaz):
Memphus says:
Sancta has contacted us requiring resources for a dispute over a barbarian city, as such we are diverting them as required and Feudalism will be delayed for the forseeable future upon the resolution of this dispute progress on feudalism will continue and you can expect it then
Lord says:
sorry, my computer overheated before
Lord says:
hmm, that seems slightly better
Lord says:
still needs a bit of work, I'll think it over
Memphus says:
no problem (mine does it all the time dumb comps)
Memphus says:
oh for sure I am not the best writer... (G_W is) and I am sure he would offer some services if required.
Memphus says:
ultimately we (and the alliance) need that city, so 500-1000 years from now we can support each other with troops
Lord says:
oh, I'm sure I could word it fairly well myself... playing a heap of multiplayer games gives you some diplomatic skills. it's just that it still boils down an appearance of sticking our nose where it doesn't belong
Lord says:
yep, indeed
Memphus says:
exactly!
Memphus says:
so you guys will figure it out and send them something to nudge them away?
Lord says:
hmm, well it'd be good if we waited until Kaz replied first... creates needless trouble if they were going to back off anyway and then get this rude email from Saturn...
Lord says:
what sort of time frame do we have?
Memphus says:
hmmm...not sure
Memphus says:
we sent it 2 days ago (roughly 36 hours)
Lord says:
are we talking about next turn?
Memphus says:
and nothing.
Lord says:
hmm
Memphus says:
yeah
Lord says:
that's still in the realms of reasonable response time though
Memphus says:
but the game is paused (on thier turn) it was sent after the pause
Memphus says:
oh for sure it is.
Lord says:
ah, ok
Memphus says:
the trick is if we have no indication by our turn, if we don't attack, then our axes could be hit by thier chariot.
Memphus says:
when the turn goes back to them.
Lord says:
you could always pause it and send a quick message to Kaz stating that you are specifically waiting on their answer. If still no word in a day or two, Saturn can intervene...
Memphus says:
For sure...our team is just so agaisn't pausing ....haha so they might vote that down on me.
Lord says:
lol
Lord says:
our team hates delays too, but we do pause occasionally when it's an urgent need
Memphus says:
i can definetely not end turn in 2 hours though
Lord says:
the option is there to be used if you really need it
Lord says:
ok
Memphus says:
so if your turn goes ~24 hours + us ~24 hours
Memphus says:
that would give us (assuming unpause today) almost 5 days for Kaz with the letter
Memphus says:
so if near end of our turn and no word, would it be fair to ask for Saturn Intervention to help Kaz make up thier mind?
Lord says:
sure, if no word from Kaz by that stage (as long as you send them a reminder), then we can intervene
Memphus says:
we will send a reminder right after they end their turn (and yours starts) implying they have obviously discussed it by that point and have unpaused the game
Lord says:
righot
Memphus says:
in that letter should we say we are now calling in allies due to thier hostility via no response? (thus giving you a segway (spelling) )
Lord says:
*righto
Lord says:
no, I don't think so
Memphus says:
ok cool. we won't then
Lord says:
just give them a gentle reminder, then we'll intervene ourselves if they don't respond (or respond positively)
Memphus says:
ok sweet! can do!
Memphus says:
(well G_W will)
Lord says:
first rule of diplomacy is to avoid potential conflict where possible... if you say you're calling on allies, they'll obviously know it's us, which may create unneeded tensions if they're not planning on trying to screw you.
Lord says:
(right now at least)
Lord says:
so let's see what happens with Kaz first :
Lord says:

Memphus says:
yeah for sure! thanks
Memphus says:
we will keep you update on the progess.
Memphus says:
by the way we just got ivory this past turn (a second set)
Memphus says:
please ask for it if you need it!
Memphus says:
we will accept on our turn (or if you need i can log in before you end turn) so you get the +1 on your turn
Lord says:
sure, will do
Lord says:
I think we'll probably need it fairly soon if not now
Lord says:
righto, great
Memphus says:
alright i am outta here time to get ready for work
 
great work Memphus :goodjob:

Sounds like Saturn is being very reasonable about this. If needed, I can help them phrase it to Kaz.
 
I agree that was a productive chat. I also agree that we should not push Saturn unnecessarily. It sounds like they are fully capable of drafting the response that best suits their fancy.

All that being said, I really like the idea of saying something like,

"Sancta has contacted us requiring resources for a "project", as such we are diverting them as required and Feudalism will be delayed for the foreseeable future. Upon completion of the project, progress on feudalism will continue and you can expect it then."

Let Kaz draw their own conclusions, but the point is very clearly made that Feudalism will be delayed at least for a while.
 
TBH, I'm perfectly happy with what Saturn have said, and how they argued their position; mainly because they stated that they are willing to not give Kaz Fued if Kaz push us.

That said, IF Kaz are going to be informed by Saturn at some point in the near future, Saturn don't want to apepar prissy (basically that's what LP meant). The best way to say that is to be blunt and aggressive.

ie

Saturn said:
SANCTA informed us of the current diplomatic situation between the two of you. In this instance, we would prefer SANCTA to to have the barb city; if you feel differently, and force war, then we will be forced to hand Fuedalism to SANCTA, instead of you, regardless of past deals

Basically it's saying to Kaz: You have chariots, and you just started getting axes, and archers. SANCTA has more power than you. SANCTA has more production than you. SANCTA has the current tactical advantage and very shortly have a unit that obseletes all units you can build. If you want to have a chance of winning this game (because Cav are still growing without any hindrance) then back down now.

We can say this, believeably, because of our tech position and Kaz can see our demos, if Saturn send a letter that basically outlines the quoted text to Kaz. Then if they don;t back down then we can decide what we want to do. And TBH I'm quite happy giving Cav the game to screw over Kaz; if wouldn't be a quick war, but it'd be a fun one.
 
I propose we send Kaz's letter to Saturn, and ask them how they'd like us to proceed.
We need their help, I think this letter speaks for itself, and it'll be good if we don't come across as too pushy.

Thougths?

Spoiler To send to Saturn: :

We just got this from the Kazakhs... just keeping you in the loop:

Greetings Daimyo General_W and the Great Nation of Ninjas,

Thank you for the note explaning your team's position regarding the barb city. We fully understand your position and why you are interested in this city. We also appreciate the information you shared with us to highlight your interest and to avoid an unecessary conflict.
We have decided to follow your example and in the same spirit we will share with you: This is far from the first time we have been to these lands.

This area was well known to us long before you ever ventured here and before the city in question even existed. The copper, pigs, corn, cows and bananas certainly make it an intriguing location. We were aware of the barb city from the moment of it's inception and we have been watching... watching and waiting patiently for the moment when this city could join our glorious and peaceful Khanate.

This area has been within the Kazakh sphere of influence since the early part of the game and we consider it our territory. We understand that this revelation is disappointing news to your nation, but it is what is it. This city is strategically important to us as well and our claim predates yours.

We have stayed in the shadow as events have unfolded. When we revealed ourselves to you we did so deliberately and for a very specific reason. We recognized, just as you wisely have, that there is the potential for a conflict between our two peoples. But this conflict can be avoided.

It is flatly unacceptable to our nation that this city ever becomes part of the SANCTA empire. If this were to occur we would consider it an aggressive attack against our nation and would act accordingly. But we also realize that you have invested time and resources and it has to be disappointing that you must now give up your plans for this city.

So in order to prevent conflict we think the only possible solution is to raze the city. We understand that this is a bitter solution, but we hope you are prepared to wipe out this city in order to ensure peace.
donsig of Kazakhstan

EDIT: SENT!
 
Send it, with no comments other than stating what it is, and send it now.

I would then send a PM to Parkin, along the lines of what I posted above, outlining our possible thoughts on a second email to Kaz. Discuss it with them ASAP, formulate a second email in conjunction with Saturn, and let fly. Kaz can reconsider if they want (I would offer them a specific deadline ie 00:00 GMT Sunday night/monday morning, saying that if they haven't backed down by then we will declare war).

I wouldn't be that worried about it tbh. When Saturn tell them they won't be getting Fued unless they back down they'll have to give up any hope of winning the game if they want to carry on this course of action.
 
I'm going off the grid for about 4 hours.
Will send this to Kaz without comment (other than who it's from) if there's no objections before I get back.
:salute:
 
send it away and yes I agree to Kaz. Ideally tonight. Hopefully tommorow morning I can Catch Lord Parkin.
 
Had a chat with LP. Didn't go great, but I think I restated why we are asking them to take sides so aggressively quite well; I didn't pull out the big guns of "we have a treaty" but they were alluded to. I think if we can keep on top of this we can convince Saturn to send an aggressive email, simply by saying that we are perfectly happy for them to send fued after we have both cities down and a longbow upgraded there (so long as Kaz do back down).

Spoiler :
Krill (09:26):
Hi mate, you got a moment?
Lord Parkin says (09:27):
yeah, sure
Krill (09:27):
Just needed to check if you got Kazs' latter that we forwarded to you.
Krill (09:28):
Kaz didn't back down, so urrently we're arguing over what to do
Lord Parkin says (09:29):
yep, got the letter
we're discussing our response
when will they be able to raze the city if they do that?
which turn?
Krill (09:29):
next turn
Krill (09:30):
so we are very willing to kill the chariot this turn if we have to
we can resettle the barb city by t98
and have a spear there by t99
Lord Parkin says (09:30):
resettle?
I thought you were keeping it?
Krill (09:31):
worst case scenario
if it does it get razed, we can resettle by t98. We would prefer to keep it but that may not be possible.
Krill (09:32):
the settler that would rebuild it was/ie earmarked for a site adjacent to it
Lord Parkin says (09:34):
hmm, okay
Lord Parkin says (09:35):
so Kaz has the game paused at the moment... it's not this turn that they could raze, but next?
just making sure
Krill (09:35):
yes.
Lord Parkin says (10:19):
so far our team members aren't particularly happy with blackmailing Kaz over Feudalism... they'd prefer a more generic warning if we do send something to Kaz...
the problem is it's a really dirty trick to pull, even on a rival
Lord Parkin says (10:20):
but it's still early days
What happens if the barb city is razed? You guys rebuild it soon afterwards, right?
Krill (10:21):
Not really, it all depends where teh Kaz settler is
If they have a settler in the FoW, then they could plant it in such a way to block us resetling the city
and they could do this next turn
Krill (10:22):
All we really need is time
in 10 turns or so we can have the city replanted and second city down to defend the enterance to our lands
Krill (10:23):
If Kaz will back off for that long we should be OK.
Lord Parkin says (10:24):
ah, ok
Krill (10:24):
Basically all we need is Kaz to realise the threat: if they don;t back down they won;t have a chance to win this game
Krill (10:25):
We won't really have much of a chance either, come to that; both of us would be gifting Cav the win, essentially
But they will be thinking: We are getting fued shortly, they won;t be able to do anything against longbows
Krill (10:27):
Ultimately, we gave you the reasons why we can't let them have that city; both of us will lose in the long term. That's why we are being so aggressive about this right now. If this does have to come down to war then it probably will do, simply because of preemptive self defense.
OK, it'll be a very farsighted preemptive self defense, but that's what it'd be
Krill (10:28):
Right now we do understand the dilemma you are in; it is a no win situation
Krill (10:29):
but it's also a no win situation for Kaz, and for us
Lord Parkin says (10:42):
yep, fair enough
will post that
Krill (10:43):
thank you
Krill (10:44):
We do want to discuss this with you in as much detail as possible, to coordinate both our responses; I hope you realise though why we had to send the first letter off so fast though. I'd have been around more to help, but I had my worst exam yesterday, another one in 2:45 hours, one one monday and another on tuesday; I'm a little streched atm.
Lord Parkin says (10:45):
no worries :)
 
Thinking over that chat quickly, and previous points, I think we need to be having almost constant contact with Saturn.

I'd like to propose that any of the Daimyo (and obviously Shogun) can contact Saturn to exchange opinions and infomation about the game and vice versa. We really do need to be keeping on top of the diplomatic situation wrt the other teams, and if this situation becomes war then we'll also need it to update them of our movements and what not.
 
Had a chat with LP. Didn't go great, but I think I restated why we are asking them to take sides so aggressively quite well; I didn't pull out the big guns of "we have a treaty" but they were alluded to. I think if we can keep on top of this we can convince Saturn to send an aggressive email, simply by saying that we are perfectly happy for them to send fued after we have both cities down and a longbow upgraded there (so long as Kaz do back down).

I disagree. I think that chat was fair and congruent with what was said yesterday.

As G_W will say once he catches up, Saturn had a pre-existing trade with Kaz (and we knew about it) Typically those items are grandfathered in unless explicitly talked about prior to a treaty being signed.

That said I understand Saturn's unease. Maybe they REALLY need math. Maybe they want to threaten a little, get math then tell Kaz to buzz off.

Either way I say our steps are as follows:
(And upon other agreeing I will do it)

A. Let Saturn send a note as they see fit.
1. Log into the Game and declare war on Kaz. (This only works if We do prior to the unpause)
2. Kill that chariot next turn, and position our troops to kill a second chariot.
3. Once thier visible units are gone and our spearman is getting closer we can offer peace for a tech :evil:
 
Normally however that tech isn't as crucial as feudalism is...

How quickly can we raise an army, I'm just concerned about kaz having more then a random scattering of units in the area. Also what happens if cab decides to or is forced to by an alliance to attack? I hate to sound like chamberlain prior to ww2, but we just need to her certain before declaring...
 
If we declare war, and Kaz get Fued, there will be no backing down of either of us until one of us is dead.

I would be very uneasy, both with Saturn and Kaz, if the fued trade goes ahead. We grandfathered the fued trade, but they know what we are forced to do (and we've stated that we feel we will be forced), and if they don't really want to help us, then I'm not sure exactly how great this alliance is going to be. Quite frankly I would be seriously reconsidering Saturn as a team with a deathwish.


Let Saturn send a note as they see fit.
1. Log into the Game and declare war on Kaz. (This only works if We do prior to the unpause)
2. Kill that chariot next turn, and position our troops to kill a second chariot.
3. Once thier visible units are gone and our spearman is getting closer we can offer peace for a tech

This isn't giving Kaz any time to back down at all, and as such is basically us going straight to war.
 
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