Saturn Embassy

War Elephants

Change to:

War Elephants, units which you can also build with your new found ivory!
 
Do we really need to sell Saturn on how powerful WE are though? That might come across as patronising.
 
not how powerful they are, but the fact that they can build them.

We could also point out no one else has them?
 
0.013b

Spoiler :
Namaste Saturn,

We're just informing you of thoughts on our side of the continent. Some of us are throwing around the idea of HBR right now, but we feel beholden to you on currency (As we both want the benfits of the extra trade routes!). Considering the slow road movements, and the units Kaz are fielding (they only got metal in the past 5 turns), Horse Archers (with longbows) would be enough to swing this battle and keep Kaz at bay. Also, we are looking at using War Elephants on the front lines, and HBR is needed for them, so all round HBR seems like a solid tech choice. Considering the cost, tech requirements, and that no one else has ivory as far as we can see, that does give the two of us an edge until rifles etc show up.

We were considering this compromise: We tech currency until it's complete (eot t98), and are left with 0 gold left (we might have a little more, but almost certainly less than 10 gold). Then you send gold to us to research HBR quickly, then we send gold to you to finish Fuedalism. Depending on when you finish Fuedalism that may not be needed.

We feel that for the short-medium term, one team researching and one team funneling gold is the most efficient way to tech and the best way to leverage both of our traits (our cheap libraries to research, and your cheap courthouses for eps against the other teams). Of course, we'd have to coordinate together what techs each team wants, but that is the joy of diplomacy.

As ever, we eagerly await your reply :)

SANCTA
researching unknowns
Shared dreams and prosperous growth
Paid by small gold things?

PS. Had a chat with Cavs yesterday. Lots discussed, some misinfomation given out, but nothing productive hapened. Attached is the text file. Nothing is annotated, so if you want anythingexplained, just email the questions or ask us in chat and we'll try to do our best.


SENT! :saulte:
 
Sounds good to my untrained ear. :)
 
Spoiler :
Lord Parkin says (12:55):
Hi
Krill says (13:09):
Hi mate
sorry for the delay
was eating lunch
Lord Parkin says (13:09):
no problem
talked to Memphus anyway
Krill says (13:10):
cool
Lord Parkin says (13:10):
by the way, I'm not sure if we said so already, but we were very pleased with the message you sent to Kaz ;)
Lord Parkin says (13:11):
seems you got the tone just right, everyone on our team was happy :)
Krill says (13:11):
Great :)
Lord Parkin says (13:11):
also makes the game more interesting now that Kaz have to be a little less sure of themselves
Krill says (13:13):
Definately. It'll be interesting to see how Cav react as well. We aren't that interested in expanding past the

barb city, we'd most likely just want to close off another passage that leads to Cav.
Kaz OTOH want to expand way past that. So Cav are arguably best off getting Kaz to back down as well.
Lord Parkin says (13:13):
I doubt Cav's reaction will be surprising... not as if they're going to up and leave Kaz
Lord Parkin says (13:14):
we're a little worried about them... they're going to be very strong very soon, and we're right next door to

them...
true
Krill says (13:15):
Well, 2 CG longbows in a city will be enough short term to defend against anyone. Long term, yeah, it's not

going to be pretty.
WE, cats and HA are the best hope for a solid defense.
Lord Parkin says (13:17):
yep
Krill says (13:17):
We were thinking though that we could supply material aid at some point, as in workers, settlers, workboat or

two. Obviously right now it isn't possible, but in the longer term that would allow you to focus on keeping up

with Cav if an arms race developes
Krill says (13:25):
We are fairly interested in your thoughts on the tech situation btw. As you can tell from the email we are

interested in HBR quickly, but depending on how close you are to getting Fued we could end up with an

interesting research dilemma
Lord Parkin says (13:26):
how close to currency are you?
I think we're not far from Feud
Krill says (13:26):
4 turns.
we'll end up with something like 0-10 gold in the bank
but we're planting a new city next turn, and get a gold tile improved for it the turn after
Krill says (13:27):
so we'll be capable of something like 80 bpt at max science
but losing about 45 gold a turn
Lord Parkin says (13:27):
we're 5 from Feud
Krill says (13:27):
cool, that sinks up nicely
Lord Parkin says (13:27):
should have 10-20 gold left at the end
yep
Lord Parkin says (13:28):
we're 84 bpt at max, with -13
presently
Krill says (13:28):
thems some nice numbers.
Lord Parkin says (13:28):
yeah
lots and lots of cottages
our GNP is fairly good, production sucks though
Krill says (13:29):
other way round for us
joy of MC and naff all grasslands that we're under jungle
and tonnes of hills
Krill says (13:30):
We can easily send you gold every turn to keep you at max research then. Tech dependent, obviously.
Lord Parkin says (13:31):
sure
makes sense
we can get HBR or whatever else you want :)
Krill says (13:31):
Well, so much depends on what Kaz do
Lord Parkin says (13:32):
yeah, will be interesting to see
they haven't played since you declared, right?
Krill says (13:32):
yup
Lord Parkin says (13:32):
turns have been crawling along...
ok
Krill says (13:34):
Basically, we want HBR as stated. If they back down, and trade maths, Calendar would be useful for us to

hook up some sugar and bananas for food and grow our jungle cottage city. Civil Service is always nice, and

Construction obviously makes sense.
Krill says (13:36):
We also see the spices nearby and silks near you; calendar is cheap but trading for it would also be decent

(personal view not that of the teams). It's a goodly amount of happyness.
Krill says (13:37):
What techs were you thinking of getting?
Lord Parkin says (13:37):
Maths is high on the priority list
Lord Parkin says (13:38):
aside from that, nothing much at the moment
Krill says (13:38):
Definately. And seeing how it is a prerequisite for the majority of techs...
Lord Parkin says (13:39):
yeah
Krill says (13:42):
Looking at the numbers
Krill says (13:43):
You finish Fued t99, we finish currency t98; we'll be able to get enough gold then to keep you at max

research after fued
Krill says (13:44):
HBR, if that were the tech to be researched afterwards, would fall eot t103.
Krill says (13:45):
By that point everything in the south would, one way or another, be resolved either into a full on bloody war or

one of the colder variety
Lord Parkin says (13:45):
righto
Krill says (13:46):
Not only does everything revolve around what Kaz does, but also if/when the barb city grows
So we have to be pretty free flowing, especially when considering it's axes against chariots
Lord Parkin says (13:48):
sure


Short chat with LP earlier today. Good news. They can tech.
 
Spoiler :
Lord says:
hI
Lord says:
*hi
Memphus says:
morning
Lord says:
evening
Lord says:
got your message
Lord says:
very interesting
Memphus says:
(i only have 5 min till i have to drive to work) but i will be back on in 35-40 min after that)
Lord says:
ok
Memphus says:
make sense?
Lord says:
yep
Lord says:
never knew that Cav had an "oopsie" with sending an email to you... quite funny actually
Memphus says:
yeah....
Memphus says:
and then to think we wouldn't read it?
Memphus says:
if in the Cold war a message was sent the wrong way, would they just trow it out?
Lord says:
people can have very different expectations of how situations like that "should" be handled I guess...
Lord says:
heh, yeah
Lord says:
some people are all for "restoring what should have been", when in reality you can't control what other people do once you send a message
Lord says:
just got to be careful who you're sending it to in the first place
Memphus says:
always!
Lord says:
goes for any email, business etc
Memphus says:
i thought we were being extra cautious in getting an admin ruling to.
Memphus says:
yup people's careers have been ruined over an email sent to the wrong person.
Memphus says:
at that point you can't ask them"not to open it"
Lord says:
(I'm always mildly amused by those business signatures that have stuff like "if you're the wrong person, you must immediately delete this email and all copies")
Lord says:
yeah
Lord says:
it's why I always try to hit reply instead of composing a new message
Lord says:
lessens the risk of sending to the wrong person
Memphus says:
yup. And reply all is the
Lord says:
heh
Memphus says:
cause if someone was BCC'd they get it too.
Memphus says:
and you don't know who that is
Memphus says:
but i have to run to work here. be back in ~40 min.
Lord says:
ok
Lord says:
only 40 mins?


A Little different realm than Krill's Chat but still productive.
 
Spoiler :
Lord Parkin says (14:26):
yeah, sounds good
(easier to keep only one window open ;) )
a very weird situation at the moment
Lord Parkin says (14:27):
KingMorgan from Cav is quizzing me on the tech deal between Kaz and us. Seriously, it's not even any of his business...
maybe he's not too familiar with demogames
Krill says (14:29):
I don't think anyone one Cavs are tbh. Their star player with the most demogame experience is Niklas; you can see from the chat that he isn't exactly used to diplomacy such as this.
Lord Parkin says (14:30):
yeah
Memphus says (14:36):
Well my read on KMorgan is:
Kaz sounded the alarms
sent letter to Cav to see what they know (aka if our threat of them losing feud was for real)
Cav doesn't know, and is now trying to find out.
Lord Parkin says (14:36):
Yep, exactly
although KingMorgan said something about a letter from you?
Lord Parkin says (14:37):
Did you mention the Feudalism thing in your letter to Cav?
Would be really good to know, since then we can tell whether Kaz told them or not.
Krill says (14:37):
I am checking emails atm
Lord Parkin says (14:37):
ok
Memphus says (14:37):
I don't think so...but as Krill said we are checking.
Memphus says (14:38):
it wasn't in the chat to Niklas (as you have copies of that too)
Cav is probably being extra paranoid because they know if KAZ doesn't ge feud THEY don't get feud.
Lord Parkin says (14:38):
exactly
but Morgan let slip about an email from SANCTA
Lord Parkin says (14:39):
what I suspect is that Kaz forwarded the email from you to them
it would make sense
Memphus says (14:39):
must be our records don't have an email directly to Cav about that.
Lord Parkin says (14:39):
anyway, I've refused to say anything to Morgan except that I'll only discuss Kaz-related matters with Kaz
Krill says (14:39):
OK, The team hasn't sent any emails to Cav for...a month? If I'm looking at this right
Lord Parkin says (14:39):
ok
Krill says (14:40):
Arguably
Lord Parkin says (14:40):
We've had silence from Cav for at least a month too
Krill says (14:40):
Arguably, Kaz want to know if they are going to get stiffed.
Lord Parkin says (14:40):
although we tried several times to open lines with them
obviously they weren't interested as they were expecting Feud from Kaz
Memphus says (14:40):
and now they want to be yourfriend (because if KAZ screw up they want feud still)
Lord Parkin says (14:40):
yeah
Krill says (14:42):
I think (just me) that if we really want Kaz to back down (and at least I do want that) the best thing Cav can be told is the straight facts: if Kaz don't back down then they aren't getting Fued.
Krill says (14:43):
That way Kaz gets to know exactly what is going to hapen.
Lord Parkin says (14:43):
sure, and they'll know that soon enough
it just bugs me when they think they can speak for Kaz and ask about a deal that doesn't involve them ;)
Memphus says (14:44):
has Kaz contacted you directly yet asking about it?
Lord Parkin says (14:44):
nope
Krill says (14:44):
point
Lord Parkin says (14:44):
they sent us a message just before the whole issue, being all friendly, but haven't said anything since the war
Memphus says (14:45):
wow. So they send something to Cav (our letter to them) but don't have the gaul to come out and ask you guys about it?
Lord Parkin says (14:48):
nope
seems rather strange really
Memphus says (14:49):
the only thing I can (logically) figure is they don'twant to know the answer
sort of a denial type approach.
Krill says (14:49):
that or they are trying to get Cav to side with them. Somehow
Krill says (14:50):
which would imply they aren't that close
which seems strange
Lord Parkin says (14:50):
Nah, they're definitely close
Lord Parkin says (14:51):
I'll send you the chat in a minute, once it's finished
Krill says (14:51):
cool, thank you :)
Lord Parkin says (14:52):
it's kind of amusing
I'm having some fun
Memphus says (14:52):
like me yesterday :)
Krill says (14:52):
shoe is on the other foot, eh?
Memphus says (14:52):
uou coudl always ask him if the oracle was thiers again ;)
Lord Parkin says (14:52):
a little snippet:
"Morgan says:
Lets hope Kaz feel the same, i'm sure there is a great proverb about the victim of broken agreements bribing people to give the robber a good beating.
Morgan says:
Can't acually think of one though.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
You're not very subtle with your threats. "
heh
yeah
Krill says (14:53):
lol
Krill says (14:54):
just wondering outloud here, but how much gold do you make at 0% science?
after fued having some gold saved to upgrade an archer or two would definately be a wise idea IMO
Lord Parkin says (14:55):
yeah
Lord Parkin says (14:56):
I think 76
Krill says (14:56):
well between the two of us thats over 100 gold/turn so that's some saftey margin
Lord Parkin says (14:57):
yep

You are having temporary network problems and are no longer in this conversation.

Krill says (15:13):
still connected?
Lord Parkin says (15:13):
yeah
Krill says (15:13):
hmm. networks at uni on the fritz lately
Lord Parkin says (15:13):
sorry, my internet is unreliable
I'm not at uni actually
Krill says (15:13):
nah, mine, I mean.
past few days they've been lagging a bit and timing out
Lord Parkin says (15:14):
ah, right

Memphus has been added to the conversation.

Krill says (15:15):
Can you see this Memphus?
Memphus says (15:15):
yup back :)
good old morning production meeting.
Memphus says (15:17):
KM still pressing you LP?
Lord Parkin says (15:18):
nah, we've finished there
Lord Parkin says (15:19):
I'll send the chat soon
Krill says (15:19):
thank you
Memphus says (15:20):
oh yeah i never told you :)
our Chariot withdrew versus axemen to the south of your new city.
95% odds and didn't win :(
Lord Parkin says (15:20):
ah
never mind
Lord Parkin says (15:21):
it happens
Memphus says (15:21):
should be an easy kill for your immortal now.
Lord Parkin says (15:21):
righto
Memphus says (15:21):
there is another axe in the region too.
Lord Parkin says (15:21):
where is it again?
south
Memphus says (15:21):
so we figured we should help out a bit.
Lord Parkin says (15:21):
can we see it?
Memphus says (15:21):
yeah there is 2 of them.
Krill says (15:21):
22333 of Iatepus
Memphus says (15:21):
no it is 1 tile from your LoS
Lord Parkin says (15:21):
k
Krill says (15:22):
2233 sorry
Memphus says (15:22):
there is also a second axe 2233 of that one (with full STR)
Lord Parkin says (15:24):
ok
Memphus says (15:25):
have you guys seen a barb archer yet?
Lord Parkin says (15:27):
not to my recollection
Memphus says (15:27):
ok us either. good to know.
Lord Parkin says (15:33):
by the way, would you mind sending this chat back to me? Lost half of it when I got disconnected earlier...
Krill says (15:33):
np
Krill says (15:34):
Actually Memphus will likely have to do that
I joined half way through
Memphus says (15:35):
negative i got disconected too :S
Lord Parkin says (15:35):
heh
never mind then
Krill says (15:35):
well, we'll try to piece it together
Lord Parkin says (15:35):
I don't think there was anything of great importance was there?
Just chatting about Kaz/Cav
Memphus says (15:38):
not really. we seem to be in a agreement about Kaz and Cav actions


Another small chat. Nothing important discussed, we should be receiving a chat log from a Saturn-Cav talk later though, that should be much more important.

Memphus, you lost the beginning of that right? Due to the auto logout?
 
OK, I may have to alter my view on Saturn: I really didn't expect them to be teching that well. We would do well to go max tax after currency, and send them gold to tech. We should be making something along the lines of 25-30 gpt from when we finish currency (extra trade routes) and Saturns bpt will increase to around 95 bpt at max research.

We should be able to save up gold slowly while doing this, then when we shift over the growth in IS and FC our GNP is going to increase by another 40 commerce/turn, so we can easily afford to keep Saturn research while we set up our own research engine.

This also shows them trust on our part; I have no problem with this whatsoever. We'd ask them to send gold to us if we were the better research team, and they've helped us with fued.
 
I have no problem working with someone and sending them cash, I just want to make sure we don't ignore our own research (libraries / unis / etc) so that when we do want to do our own research, like if they ditched us or we wanted to ditch them, we can.
 
We'll only really need libs in IS and FC, and both of those should build libs anyway, starting around t102.

FC should do it after a lighthouse, and IS should probably do it after the pyramids complete (depending on what we have to build right now).

After those two are down, we'll have libs in all the cities that would be making more than 10 beakers per turn, or are likely to be running scientists.
 
the Saturn - Cav chat from earlier today (added colours for ease of reading):

Spoiler :
Morgan says:
Hey Lord
Morgan says:
or can i call you Parkin?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
hi
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
either's fine
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
what's up?
Morgan says:
your on team saturn?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
remind me who this is?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep
Morgan says:
KingMorgan
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
which team are you on?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ok
Morgan says:
Cavelieros
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ok
Morgan says:
you have a tech deal with Kaz, alpha and IW for Feudlism?
Morgan says:
will team saturn honour this deal?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That is between Saturn and Kaz
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'm not sure why Cav thinks they have the right to enquire into deals not negotiated with them?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(Let alone why you know about them in the first place)
Morgan says:
SANCTA told us about this deal, i could say the same about them.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Huh?
Morgan says:
You are aware SANCTA and Kaz are at war?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
So I've heard
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
So I don't understand your question.
Morgan says:
Bear with me one moment, i'm checking something on the forum
Morgan says:
your aware we have a tech agreement with Kaz
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I've noticed you, Kaz and MS trading techs like crazy, yes.
Morgan says:
It has been stated to us by a 3rd party that Saturn will not honour the trade agreement that was made with Kaz, if this is the case, then does that mean team saturn is allied with SANCTA?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That is absolutely none of your business. Seriously, this comes across as rather rude: you heard some rumour from someone else concerning two other teams, and now you enquire directly about that team's tech agreements. We will talk to Kaz only about deals concerning Kaz, and not some third party.
Morgan says:
i apoligize i do not mean to be rude or poke my nose into private business.
Morgan says:
but when another team claims to speak for saturn you will apprciate that team Cav wish clairifcation from the team concerned
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That's okay. I'm not sure how familiar you are with these games; it's just usually accepted that you negotiate with a team directly and not through rumours and some third party.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Again, we will talk to Kaz if Kaz wish to talk to us, but not you. You have absolutely nothing to do with our initial deal.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Of course, you might be expecting the tech to be passed on from Kaz, but that is between Kaz and you.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I urge you to communicate with the right people to avoid causing offence in future.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(Sorry if this comes across as rather formal, but it's necessary.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
You can't expect to enquire into deals that have nothing to do with you. You do not speak for your ally, no matter how close you are.
Morgan says:
Again i apolgize, the deal between you and Kaz is your business, i am not really concerned with wheather it goes through or not. What really concerns me is why Team SANCTA believe they can speak for you, that rather than any trade deal is my primary aim of speaking to you.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
What message did SANCTA send to you?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I am curious to know why you think they speak for us
Morgan says:
Becasue they claim to know your thoughts and future actions regarding your tech trading and poltical alignement
Morgan says:
anyhow, this conversation has taken a differnent course to what i'd thought. Apoligies for putting you on the spot and asking difficult questions and possilbly inappropiate questions.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Well, I'd like to see an actual quote... otherwise it's all just secondhand rumour and whispers...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That's ok
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Hope I didn't scare you off or anything
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Happy to talk with you about any Saturn-Cav deals
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I just wasn't expecting you to quiz me on non-Cav related business
Morgan says:
No probs, battle lines have been drawn it would seem, every team needs to know which side of that line they should be on.
Morgan says:
I think Cav will not trade with saturn until the situation is clearer
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
The battle is far from us... we'd prefer to avoid confrontation in the forseeable future.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But of course, you wouldn't trade with us anyway. (We did try to initiate diplomacy several times, but only got silence...)
Morgan says:
really, thats odd. we are keen to trade with you last i heard
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Kind of difficult to trade when you seem to have already jumped way into the tech lead.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Well, we got no response to our last few messages regarding Feudalism...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But then I suspect you discussed that with your closer tech partners.
Morgan says:
perhaps.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
What other reason would there be to ignore us?
Morgan says:
has your team been ignored? it's not intentional i can assure you.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We kind of feel that way...
Morgan says:
Rest assured Saturn has much discussion recently
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
It's easy to feel shunned when all the other teams are rocketing ahead in score...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But it hasn't been discussed with us...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Presumably it's not discussion for our ears
Morgan says:
i think current war will shake things up a bit. Don't worry it's all good disscusion.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Well I hope some good diplomacy will come from this good discussion... diplomatic channels have been silent from your end for at least a month, I believe
Morgan says:
I will feed that back to the team, We hope Saturn will remain netural like the Caveleiros during these silly little border spats.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We have no desire for war in the forseeable future.

Morgan says:
Lets hope Kaz feel the same, i'm sure there is a great proverb about the victim of broken agreements bribing people to give the robber a good beating.
Morgan says:
Can't acually think of one though.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
You're not very subtle with your threats.
Morgan says:
please don't take it as threat, i'm in no postion to make them or to carry them out!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I suggest you don't make them then
Morgan says:
cheerfully withdrawn.
 
seems like a perfectly reasonable diplomacy session to me.

Cav checks in with someone they think are allies and find out that they aren't. Usual diplomatic bluster about how rude the other team is.

Were I Cav, I would get:

1) Saturn isn't our friend anymore
2) We ain't getting Feudalism

In terms of what they wanted to find out, I'd say they found it out.
 
Cav thought they had played Saturn, Cav thought Saturn would be left back in the stone ages with no ability to defend themselves.

Don't EVER forget what Saturn are atm.

  • 300 Score,
  • c. 15 pop points,
  • last in MFG,
  • (Probably) last in soldiers,
  • No metal,
  • Only just got IW
  • only just planted 5th city.

Compared to Cav:

  • 492 score,
  • c. 35 pop points
  • 2nd in MFG
  • 2nd in Soldiers,
  • Iron and horse
  • all important techs and highest GNP
  • have 7 cities (+? settlers)

And Saturn just pwned them in chat.

that was something special to make KM run away with his tail between his legs. We're bullying Kaz from a position of strength. Saturn just bullied Cav from the deathbed.
 
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